ITS A DIFFERENT TIME

quote:

they know the kid can play but is it with baggage ?

I would be concerned about those things too. The best teams win and not necessarily the teams with the most talented individuals so yes, a bad apple can spoil the whole lot.

I think of Terrell Owens in all this. He has killed at least two quarterbacks, disrupted three teams now, and probably was responsible in part for Parcells resigning. His physical talents are obvious although his catching ability seems to have eroded. I am actually surprised Parcells allowed Owens on the team in the first place.

CD,

Parcells worked for Jerry Jones. It is highly unlikely that he "allowed" Owens on the team, if you catch my drift.

CD

I honestly think that Parcells had no choice in the matter and at 65 he said enough is enough---TO led the league in drops not to mention disruption

quote:

Parcells worked for Jerry Jones. It is highly unlikely that he "allowed" Owens on the team, if you catch my drift.

I agree whole-heartedly with this. What I meant was, I am surprised he didn't resign when Jones informed him Owens was going to be on the team. I can't believe Owens would have been on the Cowboys but for Jones. Thus, I am surprised the announcement wasn't made one year earlier.

Generally speaking, I believe that college baseball coaches want "coachable" players. (this is less important to a pro coach). Baseball coaches mold the roster. As they say, he buys the groceries and makes the dinner. College coaches make their job easier by considering if the player is a team-type player.

Sounds like good news for the JUCOs and other divisions. Or maybe bad news depending on how you look at it.

I do believe that many coaches observe the way the player relates to his parents on interviews and meetings. Is he respectful? Does he cut his parents off in mid sentence? etc.

I see coaches at the HS level around here do this. I have seen talented (HS talent) ballplayers not make the team and someone else who is a tad less make it. I figure that the coaches want to win, but they also are teachers and think "I HAVE to put up with the kids during school, but I don't have to put up with them after school on the baseball team if I don't pick them". Makes sense to me. I am sure I would do the same.

Tim Robertson

150 years ago, when I was coaching LL, parental baggage was a major consideration in draftng a team. Take those LL stars, who became select team stars, hs stars, and showcase stars with the same now-inflated parents and I'm surprised the coaches haven't been researching the parents for some time now.

I know I'm aware of a few parents with quality players who have felt the need to contact their son's college coaches about issues best left behind in LL, or who have gone on at some length about all the pro interest in their son believing that will up the scholarship ante. There have been threads here about tactics with college coaches that have made me look heavenward ---- can you imagine what tricks families without the benefit of a forum like this to brainstorm have pulled?

TR

It makes for interesting discussion. Certainly the Coach and program have a right to want a kid that follows the rules, works hard, and studies (I guess this makes them good). Likewise, I guess Coaches are entitled to want parents that don't bother coaches and accept whatever the school and coach decide to do (I guess this is a good parent.)

If these are what makes a good kid and a good parent, and maybe there's more to it than this I'm not sure -- I have just one question - are they a package deal? In other words what if you have one but not the other?

I've known alot of what I called good kids and good parents then I've known some good kids with not good parents (according to this criteria) and I've known some good parents with not so good kids -- according to this criteria.


My concern, when I hear this sentiment from a college coach is it might, not necessarily say... I don't want to be bothered and a kid's talent and grades (observable objective criteria) aren't enough for me to take a chance on.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm continually touched by the recurring story, and you hear it today just like you hear it 20, 30, 50 years ago, awhere a former player gives a testimonial about what he learned from his coach (college, HS etc.) that molded his character and changed him forever in a positive way.

Not every kid has great parents and lots of kids aren't as mature, or have learned the work ethic etc. that they should have...it doesn't mean they can't change, it doesn't mean it's their fault...but it probably means they will be more trouble than the finished polished product.

But again, I'm continually impressed with the coach that graduates his players, and when asked what his biggest accomplishment was he says seeing Joey leave here as a good citizen a much different man than when he came as a 17/18 kid.

ALA Bobby Knight

With this a background my thoughts are these:

I'm leary of a coach who has to do a background check on a talented player outside of grades

I'm leary of a coach that would leave a good kid (criteria above) out because he has PAINS for parents.

I'm leary of a coach that accepts hear say and second opinions without confronting the subject directly...spineless, lazy, suspect.

I guess I'm looking for the coach that says. I've checked up on your son and you as parents and heard this -- here's the deal. I found out X, Y, and Z and I need to hear from you about these things and we need to come to an agreement about them for the possible future of your son on our team.

Maybe it turns out that second hand opinions from HS coaches, Select coaches and others aren't exactly accurate...maybe it turns out they are exactly accurate. Either way to me this is the best way to approach it.

If the talent of the kid merits interest!!!!! this is key.

Don't know about you but I've seen instances where second hand opinions are often baseless or worse biased. We all know the story of the bad coach everyone knew who spread rumors about this kid or that parent. These people don't get jailed they run around saying whatever to whomever will generally listen. Not that they are the rule they are the exception.

Kids are kids I'd let Bobby Knight smack mine for days if it ultimately made him a better person. Kids need the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, if a kid can play I personally believe (foolish as I am) that there's a way to get that kid productive and I can do it - I've sometimes been wrong...but how fulfilling was it when I was right. Even when I was wrong I felt like I was the stonecutter hammering away at the rock...may not have seen it crack but maybe all my blows softened for the guy whose blow did crack it!

Not that I don't understand where coaches that don't want problems are coming from...after all who wants problems -- right!

How many of us have seen John Q spoiled little leaguer, High schooler grow up to be a very level headed good adult?

Mr. Mom, I agree with most of what you said. Great post. In the past, my own son has benefitted from those who were willing to give him a second chance and I appreciate their belief in his ability to change.

That said, I must disagree with one of your comments: "I'm leary of a coach who has to do a background check on a talented player outside of grades."

Frankly, unless a recruiting coordinator lives in the same city, he is probably going to see your son play 2-3 times at most and will not have the opportunity to interact with him in a significant way so he can be 100% confident in his character. Ever heard of Eddie Haskell on "Leave it to Beaver?" Great in front of Mr. & Mrs. Cleaver -- different kid around his pals. I would have no problem with a coach calling those who know my son to do a "background check" and I would hope he'd do that with every player my son might be playing with in college. If a player has extremely troubling issues, he will very likely impact his teammates in a negative way and drag the whole team down.

Infield 08

I agree, I didn't really expect a coach not to ask around. I'm just not sure if asking the summer coach (only) is what I'd agree with. I think the key is asking those that know the kid.

I'll defer to those with more experience on how much "checking up" is done. I think checking with multiple sources is better.

As far as a "bad kid" pulling down his team. I've known some raucious bad graded kids who were the best team players ever...they may have been a little "too social" if you know what i mean but when it came to being team players and busting butt on the field...they were tops. Usually it wwas is these players who are the team leaders.

On the other hand I've known some "Eddie Haskells" as you describe...smart good parents, but spoiled rotten when it came to getting what they want (PT) etc. However, often it never came out becuase they were always used to "being" the best on the team.

Anyway...point well taken...I guess it depends on the definition of a "good kid"

TR we need that definition!

Which one of these guys is a good kid? and which aren't?

MR MOM

To answer your question--yes they are a package

As for a college coach talking to coaches I think many talk to the HS AD, HS Coach and the Summer/fall coach--- In many ways the summer/fall coach knows the kids better than others because of the compressed time periods they are together as a "family".

I can tell you that we have not invited kids to play with our travel team because of the "total package" and this was despite the excellent talent of the player

Coaches are generally stand-offish with parents, which I understand. I think they are more inclined to take on a player with some sort of "baggage" if it is a known factor and parents have been supportive. Recruiting is a great time for parents to recede into the background, letting the student assume the direct input and contacts with schools.

I am happy to talk to coaches and we exchange pleasantries once or twice during the season, but I can easily count on one hand the conversations I've had with any of the coaches recruitng my son since recruiting began.

Basicly, they really don't care what I have to say, nor should they. I do have a feeling they would care if I had too much to say though.

As far as Summer ball, we are fortunate to have a group of parents and families who come out, enjoy the games, socialize on road trips, talk baseball, praise each others kids accomplishments, talk about their potential future in baseball, etc.

The coach is a wonderful guy, highly disciplined in teaching the fundamentals as well as the "techniques" to improve skills. We, as a whole, never approach him about the players, or anything game related. Period. Even if we don't agree.

Story:

This past summer in a nice event at an SEC school, maybe 98 humid degrees outside, my son had a nice game. A very impressive game. Many D1's and pro scouts were in attendance. During the game, the coach put on a 1st to 3rd bunt. My son, taught to "peek" at the plate result while taking off noticed the kid missed the bunt. He successfully stole 2nd, obviously not taking 3rd.

In a similar situation,same game, the kid made contact on the bunt, but it went right to the pitcher quickly, and using judgement, my kid stopped at 2nd instead of promoting a throw across the diamond to 3b, as the play was called. It was plain as day he arrived at 2b after the 1st basemen made the put out.

After the game, which we won, he had to do 5 laps around the entire field, about 2 miles I guess, in scorching weather. He completed his "lesson" of proper baserunning, shook his coach's hand, grabbed his bag, shook the groundschiefs hand and thanked him for allowing him to play on his field, and quietly walked to the parking lot.

Did I agree? NO
Was I concerned? Yes, when 2 other teammates collapsed from heat exhaustion.

Did I approach the coach and complain? NO
Did I later ask my son how he felt about it? YES
His response was simply, "I had a couple base-running blunders"???????

In High School ball, you will always get a few parents who have a hard time dealing with the moments their kid fails, and they go straight to either the coach or AD, and thats after whining to anyone who will listen.

I just hang around the RF line away from everybody and enjoy the game, especially when I have to turn right to watch em fly

As far as my dealings with the upcoming college coaches relating to baseball, I don't do so now, nor do I intend to do so unless asked !!

As far as college coaches checking up on a recruit, thats called due diligence, just like you check on them, and you should.

The coaching staff at the Div 1 college where my son will play in the Fall call my husband and I frequently and email just us--frequently--to chit chat. While he is also calling my son regularly to "see what's up", I'm also feeling like the coach is checking in with us as well. I have no doubt that he is sizing the "whole package" up. Accordingly, all this access to the coach has made my husband and I feel amazingly welcomed and secure knowing that our son is going to be working with someone we know fairly well.

Also, it's very important that these young athletes recognize that coaches will check My Space, Facebook, other social networking sites or just Google their names to check on a player so be careful and smart about the way these sites are being used and the info that is on them!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Funny thing---we have heard all the talk and reasons for Bill Parcells retiring and one main reason was the type of player that is around today

In talking with a couple of Division I coaches the past few days there appears to be a new thinking prevailing---not only is talent a key element but the type of kid and family is becoming even more important in the recruiting process---we get asked more and more now about the type of kid and family background--- they know the kid can play but is it with baggage ?
What are your thoughts?

Tongue in cheek....this sounds like an Andy post.

If Andy had posted TR would be saying "what coaches ...name names"

In regards to Parcells I don't think he said anything about why he is retiring except that it was time he's 65 did not have the mental energy for a 12 month job,,,and also was looking not just at next year but the following years as well.

If he wanted to stay I think JJ would have gotten rid of The whining TO.

quote:

Originally posted by mrmom:
Infield 08
I'm just not sure if asking the summer coach (only) is what I'd agree with. I think the key is asking those that know the kid.

I'll defer to those with more experience on how much "checking up" is done. I think checking with multiple sources is better.

I agree. I was surprised at how many different people the college coach spoke to about my Son prior to the offer...and we didn't know until after he signed.

quote:

As far as a "bad kid" pulling down his team. I've known some raucious bad graded kids who were the best team players ever...they may have been a little "too social" if you know what i mean but when it came to being team players and busting butt on the field...they were tops. Usually it was is these players who are the team leaders.
I guess it depends on the definition of a "good kid"

"bad kid" I dont equate with grades but with attitude...are they a problem in the dugout or locker room, are they working hard or hardly working. In regards to grades...if a college player can't stay eligible it's going to hurt the teams APR (I think thats the abbrev.) and risk losing scholarships. Granted College players don't make the grade(s) for many reasons but I would imagine as a coach staying academically eligible would be a biggee...bad kid no...bad recruit possibly.