"Its political"

I think it exists at every level of baseball including the big leagues.

At the youth level, I know in my experience, that it did not cost my son playing time but it caused him to be moved around the infield depending on where the coach's son played. Turned out to be a huge blessing for him however as he developed versatility.

At the high school level, I was pleasantly surprised to see that talent seemed to win out for the most part but initially, it seemed like there might be some politics at play. Many years ago, there seemed to be an expectation that booster club parents would find their kids in the lineup. When our coach cut a few of those kids several years ago, the whole program changed - for the better because it sent a strong message that political influence was no longer in play. I can still see people trying to pull strings with the coach however but it seems to have been minimized at our high school.

Where you see this problem the most is when an athlete on the team is the coach's son. At the college level, it seems these kids start from day 1 and often without merit imho. I've seen it over and over again and I can cite many examples (in private).

In pro baseball, follow the draft for starters. Every year, there are kids drafted because of who they are and not on the merits. Right now, in AA, the White Sox are running a kid out there who has no business being there but his Dad is the GM of the team. The Tigers have a fine offensive catcher who was moved to the head of the line imho based in part that his dad is an executive with the team. The kid is a fine MLB player however.

Perhaps what I am talking about are the exceptions but dozens and dozens of kids are drafted each year based on some type of connection. Of course, some of them do pan out, but some of the kids who went undrafted could have panned out as well imho.

For parents out there, my advice is never discuss or bring this topic up with your sons. Encourage them to control what they can and pay no mind to what they cannot.

I'd change political to does the coach "like" your kid? In programs that are deep there are 5-6 clear starters and 6 to 8 fairly equal players competing for the last few spots.

When players are that close in skill level sometimes it can boil down to how a coach feels about a player. They like his approach, toughness, hustle or any one of a dozen other variables. There's an excelent chance that in these circumstances the coach can play any of the players and end up in the exact same place.

In the school my son attended there were kids that never got on the field that would have been 3 year starters at half the schools in the district. When a coach has that situation he is going to tick somebody off.

Like all people coaches are people with emotions, fallacies, pressure, ect. - the same as anyone else.
I see parents "at work" on the coach all the time. I know that some of the players in our program are on the team for reasons other than skill.
I would classify that as "political" in the realm of baseball(or sports) - maybe "like" would be a better term.
I encourage my son to talk to his HS coaches all the time and develop a relationship with them. Fortunately, for him - he is good at this - not to take away anything from his skill because he is a good player.
It would be naive to think that how a coach "feels" about a certain player does not go into account when determining playing time, positions, ect.
I have coached youth sports for 17 seasons (football and baseball) - I try to be as fair as I can but personalities come into play - and I don't think that is a bad thing. Obviously, it can be an issue if there is blatant favortism - but as mentioned above - if players are somewhat equal in skill - then "politics" will play a part.

In my career I'd say I've both benefited and been harmed by "politics." There was a point when I thought I had only been harmed, but in baseball things change.

My son has never been politicked. But I believe it exists at every level. I remember the president of our LL telling me his wife said if their kid didn't make all-stars he's sleeping on the couch. But many times there are four or five kids qualified for the last spot on all-stars and the parents of those who don't make it think it's political.

In high school ball I've seen less talented younger brothers of previous players get undeserved benefit of the doubt until they fell on their face.

I've seen college players on larger rides have to really play themselves out of the lineup.

I've seen sons and nephews of MLB franchise employees get drafted that shouldn't have been.

I've seen a .240 singles hitter get called up to the majors over a player hitting .330 with 20 homers for $2M dollars worth of reasons. The .240 hitter signed a 2M bonus.

I believe most of the time parents use politics as an excuse for their son not playing. But politics do exist.

It just prepares the kids for life. Do they lie down and take or figure out another way to succeed. Politics in the business world is much worse than what our kids deal with in sports.

I've seen several kids drafted with famous last names, or famous fathers, or famous family members, that weren't even close to the skill level of thousands upon thousands of undrafted guys.....

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Ever hear that phrase around a baseball field? In reference to not starting/playing/pitching enough.

Ever said it?

Ever read it on here?


Problem is, I just don't think its ever really true. Just wondering, what do you think this phrase, "Its political" means when it comes to baseball and playing time. Is it real? Or not?

(Disclaimer - This message is not inspired by anyone on this message board. Just wondering.)

It is used as an excuse, but it is also real. Daddy coached teams are a prime example. Some dads might be tougher on their own, but most favor their kid playing time wise.
Also some coaches who want to win will still favor kids who are their pets because their own bias blinds them to what others see.
I doubt it happens on the major league level that much, but if an owner or coach despises a player, they can be riding the bench despite being a better player as well.

when daddy coaches the team and his kid bats 1st and plays shortstop ahead of a kid who is better is what it is. to the kid who is on the short end of that my advice is you have to deal with it but if you are good enough sooner or later the "political" gives way to reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
when daddy coaches the team and his kid bats 1st and plays shortstop ahead of a kid who is better is what it is.

This is good. This creates next year's new coaches. The system works.

Interesting responses so far. Not exactly what I expected...but interesting nonetheless.

Keep 'em comin!

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"I think it exists at every level of baseball including the big leagues."

Yup.

"For parents out there, my advice is never discuss or bring this topic up with your sons. Encourage them to control what they can and pay no mind to what they cannot."

Yup.

"I believe most of the time parents use politics as an excuse for their son not playing. But politics do exist."

Yup.

"I see parents "at work" on the coach all the time. I know that some of the players in our program are on the team for reasons other than skill."

Yup.


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quote:

"I see parents "at work" on the coach all the time. I know that some of the players in our program are on the team for reasons other than skill."


Yup.

So as a supervisor of about 200+ employees...I see employees "at work" with me sometimes.

Does it help them? Nope, not unless they're bringing real performance to the table. Otherwise, it just annoys me.

Wouldn't coaches feel similar in many cases? I sure have heard more than a few sound 'annoyed' by it all.

I remember a Legion teammate's mother screaming politics when he wasn't chosen to start a regional game when the scheduled starter was injured. What she failed to recognize was it was payback for blowing off the last day of states the previous year because the parents didn't think he would pitch.

The mother bltched all year about his lack of opportunity to pitch and politics. We had four pitchers ultimately drafted from that team. Six pitchers went on to pitch in college. Her son wasn't one of them. To this day she thinks the Legion coach killed his college chances.

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I know that some of the players in our program are on the team for reasons other than skill."

In LL we took twelve players for all-stars. The last player who made it we had ranked fourteenth. We chose him because we knew his parents would be thrilled he's getting 2&1 rather than bltching about it screaming politics. The kid is playing college ball now.

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We've seen the worst at our high school. The board terminated the football coach/ Athletic Director and most of the problems disappeared. The new AD runs things fairly...very much unlike the former AD.

We have seen some very strange episodes at one college in particular. Bottom line? Unbelievably the coach seemingly did not want to win...and the AD too. I think with success comes the expectation of continued success. And that means work and effort. Both of the men seemingly were content with an embarrassingly mediocre baseball program. The roster was always brimming overfull...why sweat it? It was sad...real sad.

Good coaches and good bosses rightfully should be annoyed, but if they're poor then they just don't care...especially if no one is lighting a fire under them. Unfortunately that's just the way it is sometimes.

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politics does not exist anywhere. not when the bosses kid gets a job he's not qualified for in the office, not when one cop pulls over another cop and no ticket is given, not when daddy plays son who is blind in one eye and cant see out of the other, not when one player is on a high percentage scholarship and the kid who is slightly better was a walk on. cant happen ever!

quote:

Good coaches and good bosses rightfully should be annoyed, but if they're poor then they just don't care...especially if no one is lighting a fire under them. Unfortunately that's just the way it is sometimes.

I agree Woody!

Still, some dismiss it as politics no matter how 'un-political' it really is...wouldn't you agree?

I think my original statement that, "I just don't think its ever really true" was clearly too strong...and incorrect. (Didn't even realize I wrote that until I went back), but I do think this line, "Its politics," is pulled out WAY too often and too easily.

I will state a view that won't be popular among many. But since it was brought up, I personally have no issue with kids of big leaguers or team management officials or scouts' kids getting drafted as a courtesy. Does not bother me, but I understand why it bothers others. I might 'shake my head' about it every once in a while, but thats more about being embarrassed for the **** the kid is gonna take from his friends.

quote:

when daddy coaches the team and his kid bats 1st and plays shortstop ahead of a kid who is better is what it is. to the kid who is on the short end of that my advice is you have to deal with it but if you are good enough sooner or later the "political" gives way to reality.

It is always interesting to be around the first time Daddy is not the coach. I've seen junior get mad because he must earn his position and sink below mediocrity - but I have also seen junior realize he needs to step it up - do so - and continue to play those positions on his own merit.

I always wonder about those who yell politics when the coach has nothing to gain. Never figured that one out...

It exists everywhere, and to me it’s telling that it has come to be known as “politics”. That’s sad in and of itself, but I digress.

A vast majority of parents aren’t capable of looking at their own child’s abilities in a rational, non-biased way. Most of the parents who can are either experienced in the game and been around it a long time, they’ve gone through the entire process with older children or (and this is the one that gets me) they don’t know much about the game and they figure “it is what it is”.

I think many parents just become defensive, because the situation apparently affects their own child. Perspective is reality, no matter which way you spin it. An individual reality, but that’s human nature.

Many times “politics” is simply organizations or coaches that reward loyalty. Sounds simple, but I’ve seen it time and time again, so it still happens.

How many of you who’ve had sons on HS Varsity teams have seen it? You know. The kid who was on JV until he was a JR. He never played a lot. He never really complained, he worked hard, he showed up at practice etc. Maybe when he was younger people / coaches figured he’d grow, he’d mature, he’d get better. But every year the kids his age improved, and he didn’t really. Younger kids came in the system, already better than he was.

So when it came time to cut the kid or put him on Varsity, a lot of coaches choose to keep the kid (if they have the roster spot) even though he likely won’t play much at all.

Maybe the kid has a good attitude, he’s a team player, the other players like him. Maybe he wins a spot over a player who’s BETTER but who’s attitude stinks.

Maybe he’s got a brother on the team or one who’s been in the program.

Maybe the kid has always been bigger and stronger than everyone else, and coaches simply hope he’ll grow to use that frame.

Some parents look at sports differently than many of us. I played, I had my time. This is my kid’s time. He wants to play, to put the work in, I’ll support and work with him. He doesn’t, so be it. I’m not going to make him play a sport that he doesn’t want to. I’m not going to try and force him either way.

Some parents literally think that people think bad of them (as people / parents who knows) when their child doesn’t perform well on the sports field. I’ve seen it time and time again. Unfortunately I’ve seen it end friendships. The kids grow up together, they play sports together, the parents become friends. One of the kids doesn’t mature, doesn’t get better or he just doesn’t want to play anymore. It happens.

I’ve also seen parents who constantly pump their kid up. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but when a 15 year old kid literally thinks he’s better than another kid who made Varsity, when every person around him knows there isn’t a comparison, it can be tough. I’ve seen parents CONVINCE their child that the only reason he’s not playing is because of “politics”. So there is more than one side to this often tossed-around term.

RJM has said it before and I’ve said it before, because I experienced the same. The example for a LL All Star Team holds true for a vast majority of High School Baseball teams as well.

The first 6-7 players are no brainers. Not many at all would argue with these kids being on the team and playing. It’s the remainder that everyone seems to scrabble over.

I look at it from a coach’s standpoint. If I’ve got a kid who is realistically the 2nd or 3rd best Catcher and I’ve got a kid who’s fast, who is more athletic, I’m liable to take the less “polished” faster, essentially more athletic kid and hope to teach him how to play outfield, at the least I have a go to pinch runner on the bench.

Some parents don’t see that.

“Why did that FR make the team and not my SO? My kid is a pitcher, my kid goes to this coach etc.”

Well their kid isn’t good enough to be in the rotation. He knows the game maybe, but the physical tools simply aren’t there. But that FR? He might not know the game as well, but he’s quick. He’s got a decent arm, and I figure, as a coach, I’m more able to utilize him as role-player. Hard to use a lower rotation pitcher as a role-player.

What many parents, even those of good players, seem to miss (at least in my experience – so take it for what it’s worth)…they miss that High School ball is not travel ball. In many cases that fast kid who plays a great 2nd base, well he’s the best Center fielder on the HS team, even though “that’s not his natural position”. I’ve heard parents use that term and I just have to fight back a smile.

“Natural position?” Unless you’ve over 6ft at 13, left handed and can throw it through a wall, you don’t have a “natural position”.

You simply have the best position that can help your current team win baseball games. And sadly sometimes a kid doesn’t qualify for this role, on this team.

Just my 2 cents.

quote:

I personally have no issue with kids of big leaguers or team management officials or scouts' kids getting drafted as a courtesy.

It doesn't bother me they are drafted. They're generally picked from the 40th to 60th round. What bothers me is if they receive a roster spot or playing time over a more deserving player in short season A ball.

quote:

Problem is, I just don't think its ever really true.

Wrong. Call it "Like"/"favoritism"/ etc. It does exist. It may not always be intentional but everyone knows its there. In fact, in our world, its usually those who say it doesn't exist who are benefiting indirectly or directly from the very existence of it. Sorry OP, but that's the way I see it in our area.

I agree politics, for lack of a better word does in fact exist. I tell my sons that if the believe in themselves, work hard and get better, not just for your current coach, your current team, but for yourself and any future teams.

As a parent you should know going in to this that your player is going to go through this, everyone does.

The problem I see is that coaches get emotionally attached to certain players, their familes etc... and that ends up having a bearing on the roster decisions. Or the coach thinks this is the best player for the position even though , the player makes error after error, but if the coach makes a roster change then it appears he was wrong in the first place and does not have enough class to admit he was wrong, so he leaves the kid out there hoping he will turn it around, and the kid that might have been the best fit sits.

Two players on a summer team I followed last year. player A very much better than player B, player A plays in front of player B all summer, ERA is better wins are better, fewer walks the whole nine...fast forward to HS ball player B plays all season in front of player A....why....player B is a sr.....and in a weak high school division can still pitch well enough to win......so the better player , player A waits until summer ball starts.

another reason I prefer summer ball over HS ball, I have never heard a summer ball coach says, 'well he's a senior.......

quote:

Originally posted by slbaseballdad:

quote:

Problem is, I just don't think its ever really true.

Wrong. Call it "Like"/"favoritism"/ etc. It does exist. It may not always be intentional but everyone knows its there. In fact, in our world, its usually those who say it doesn't exist who are benefiting indirectly or directly from the very existence of it. Sorry OP, but that's the way I see it in our area.

Of course, you are right!

It was wrong, but please read where I acknowledge that near the bottom of the previous page.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I think my original statement that, "I just don't think its ever really true" was clearly too strong...and incorrect. (Didn't even realize I wrote that until I went back), but I do think this line, "Its politics," is pulled out WAY too often and too easily.

"It's politics" may be an over used blanket term but please don't blindly discount the truthfulness of it.

I see a lot of posters here immediately discount situations posed by other posters seeking answers as to what to do when faced with "political" environments. Trust me, it IS frustrating to experience.

What I can tell you is I am a dad who has watched his son try and deal with it his senior year of hs. It DOES happen. I am also a dad who is hard on his son when things don't seem to be "going his way". I hit him with all the "personal responsibility" questions like how much have you hit outside of practice this week? Are you hustling your butt off in practice? Are you making mistakes in practice? Are you the first one out of the field house for practice and are you the last one to stay late to hit? I am hard on him and he would be the first to tell you so.

The good news is, my son is going on to play college baseball for a very respected program but according to his hs coach, he isn't even one of the top 5 outfielders on his team. I could go into details as to why but I will not. It will not change a thing. It's an established hs program with a very well respected coach and before some posters wade in with the standard "if he is good enough he will play" answer, step back. That isn't always the case. If your kid is a d1 stud, yeah that is the case but really, how many fit into that mold? Not everyone is Bryce Harper.

Let's just say my advice to parents who are going through tough situations like this, especially when your son is talented enough to play at the college level, is this. Find the absolute best summer team you can find and have him play there. Get it done outside of hs ball. That is where the important things happen anyway. Chances are, you aren't going to be able to change a thing at the hs team level so dont even try. It truly is a no win situation.

Lastly, as a glass half full kind of guy, this is how I deal with this with my son. I simply tell him that in the long run, this coach is doing you a favor that will serve you well in life. No matter how hard you work and no matter how good you are at what you do, sometimes life isn't fair. You adjust and move on but the one thing you do is recognize it and don't let it kill your confidence and drive. Don't let one individual stand in the way of your dreams and goals, no matter what.

The reality is that after a few true "studs" most players have equivalent talent. In order to seperate this talent, coaches look to various things -- attitude, hustle, personal bias, politics and the very common "hot mom."

Frankly, it would be easier if they would just admit that other factors besides raw talent play a role. Issues occur when they try to give the "smoke screen" that talent is what they base their decisions on. I have been thru the "all star" thing a few times and while they tried to give the appearance of impartiality, it was clear that politics played a role. Right or wrong, that is called life.

quote:

I think it exists at every level of baseball including the big leagues.

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"Don't let one individual stand in the way of your dreams and goals, no matter what."

B-I-N-G-O!



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I believe politics exists in baseball regarding playing time and position. When a father is the coach the chances of politics goes up. But I also agree that many parents use politics as an excuse when their son does not play as much, and the position they want even though it is obvious to everyone else that the kid just isn't as good as the other kid.

Politics is a great excuse for ignoring the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by slbaseballdad:

quote:

Problem is, I just don't think its ever really true.

Wrong. Call it "Like"/"favoritism"/ etc. It does exist. It may not always be intentional but everyone knows its there. In fact, in our world, its usually those who say it doesn't exist who are benefiting indirectly or directly from the very existence of it. Sorry OP, but that's the way I see it in our area.

Of course, you are right!

It was wrong, but please read where I acknowledge that near the bottom of the previous page.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I think my original statement that, "I just don't think its ever really true" was clearly too strong...and incorrect. (Didn't even realize I wrote that until I went back), but I do think this line, "Its politics," is pulled out WAY too often and too easily.

Sorry....Should have said "I don't agree".

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"Politics is a great excuse for ignoring the truth."

So very true fillsfan. I just wish the reverse were true as well. In these perilous times it would not be wise to ignore the politicians and politics.


"Politics? I don't pay much attention to it."......"And that's exactly what the politicians want!"

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golfman25:
The reality is that after a few true "studs" most players have equivalent talent. In order to seperate this talent, coaches look to various things -- attitude, hustle, personal bias, politics and the very common "hot mom."

The Hot Mom factor? That's a new one to me. For some of the kids I know it's a good thing they can really play.

Interesting discussion. Especially “daddy ball”.

Like most of you, we played on a few daddy ball teams. I bet some of you were daddy ball coaches. On one team the coach’s son (Terrible fielder, ok hitter) played SS and batted 3rd the entire year when 3/4 the team could have played a better SS and half were better hitters. The other team the son played 3rd, batted 5th, and pitched – decent hitter, poor fielder, horrible pitcher. In both cases the other kids moved up and down the order, changed positions, or sat on the bench based on recent performance – but the coaches kids stuck to their spots like granite.

These were higher level tournament teams and I’m sure it cost us more than a few games. I heard a lot of complaining from other parents about it. But you know what? I had absolutely no problem with it. For two reasons:

First – They were great guys and were super passionate about baseball.

Second – They put a TON of time in these teams. Setting schedules (we played around 75 games/yr), organizing and running practices, running try-outs and telling kids (and parents) they didn’t make the team, keeping stats, collecting money and paying bills for equipment, uniforms, and tournament fees, giving kids rides as needed, dealing with leagues and tournament directors, setting line-ups and pitching rotations, dealing with sh*t from parents, and on, and on, and on. Sure, there were some parents that helped out with practices and other stuff, but 90% fell on the coaches shoulders. Mostly, parents showed up and watched the game.

So if one small benefit of going through all this is that their son got to play his favorite position, and got a few more AB’s than other kids during a season, that was fine with me. When I mentioned my thoughts to the parents who were complaining, the complaining stopped pretty quickly.

I want to thank all the unpaid “daddy” coaches for what they do!

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"The Hot Mom factor? That's a new one to me. For some of the kids I know it's a good thing they can really play."

Remember..."beauty is in the eye of the one choosing the team!"


I remember our Little League 'draft nights' well. With some of the coaches it was way too much about the 'hot' moms. I don't think I'm revealing any secret here.

"Hmmm? That Schwartz kid really gets after it...let's choose him."......"What!? Have you seen his mom? Nope...we're goin' with the Johnston mom. Va Va Voom!"

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That's all well and good Nolan Ryan so long as the kids of the 'Daddy Ball' coaches understand properly just why it is that they are getting their opportunities.

It appears that most of the examples of players you offered will not likely go much further in their baseball journey once they are out of the sphere of their dads.

You bring up some very good points. I would hope that both dad and son in these instances are better off for the experience.

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Re draft favors- correct me if I'm wrong but I think the draft will only have 40 rounds this year instead of 50. They'll have to squeeze more favors in there!

Experts- 40 or 50 rounds this year?

Sometimes favors work out. Nobody would say the Dodgers blew it when they drafted Mike Piazza as a favor to Tom Lasorda and gave him a shot.

We used to call it the GLM picks towards the end of the rec league draft. Good Looking Mom. One single dad always seemed to have the Lakers cheerleaders on his side of the field every year.

There is no definitive and quantitative test for expected baseball performance. There are no series of drills that will tell a coach, without question, which players should be playing which position and batting in which order.

In contrast, think about some of the individual sports; swimming or track. In these sports, all athletes can do all drills in practice. At meets, all athletes can compete in all events. Results are posted and outcomes unquestionable. How does a coach put a relay together: the fastest four athletes.

Because baseball, like many team sports, relies on an expert to make qualitative decisions about athlete’s placement, there will always be ‘politics’. Maybe ‘politics’ isn’t the perfect word, but it does the job. We’re describing the confluences of a coach’s knowledge of the game, their ability to teach a specific age-group, the depth of skill on the team, the environment – league / organization – that the team plays, and the parent community.

I will say, there’s nothing inherently wrong with politics. I have no doubt that some players/parents experiences have been forever negatively impacted because of an imperfect process. But I bet for every story where a poison parent took over a booster program, making a coaches life hell, someone on this board has a counter story where another parent or a group of parents took action to box out a bad apple.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
We used to call it the GLM picks towards the end of the rec league draft. Good Looking Mom. One single dad always seemed to have the Lakers cheerleaders on his side of the field every year.

That's Classic fillsfan...but it wasn't only the "single dads" with that drafting philosophy. My wife learned of the GLM picks early on during the Rec Ball years. I simply told her that she was one of the GLM's on my team and crowned the Leader via her Team Mom status.