Ivy Coach Asking If Nephew Needs Financial Aid? Confused, Thought Blind Need

David: I believe is a box on most on-line recruiting questionnaires in Ivies that ask "Applying for financial aid?"Maybe it wasn't checked. As long as financial aid form was filled on time (even if not on ED should be ok. End result to making a roster is D1 athletic ability and academic standing. A student with a high AI may not necessarily allow a team to add another player. It will allow the coach though to get the player who throws 90s or hits bombs through admissions, who may have a lower AI.  The on-line finances calculator should help too. Good luck.

I think the inquiry on FA had more to do with player's ability to commit and the coach using  a likely letter spot ONLY on a kid who will attend. (LL's are a very limited commodity and a coach usually has only approximately 6 - 8 each year; if a LL is issued and the kid doesn't attend, the coach is down a recruited player.)

As for the accuracy of Ivy FA calculators, several points are important:

• H, Y, and P have the best FA, Dartmouth the worst. If a kid is gets a more favorable FA preread from one school, another Ivy will match if asked and if pushed. (But the schools have a huge amount of wiggle room because usually the FA pre read is based upon the family's "best guess" of their finances BEFORE tax returns have been filed for the relevant year and unless the information upon which the preseason was based is IDENTICAL, FA will change.)
• the more complex a family's finances (read that assets apart from the primary residence and retirement accounts), the less accurate the calculators.
• if the wage earners are self employed or own a small business the calculators are virtually worthless because each school will redo all financial information in order to get a true cash flow picture of the family (small businesses can really manipulate cash flow by prepaying expenses or purchasing large capital assets.  In this case, financial planners advise to begin the process of reducing income a couple of years before the target year).
• spending a couple of hours with an Ivy FA expert should be considered. For example, when the school asks for the value of real estate assets, that number is much less then the actual fair market value of the asset, etc.  Getting an expert's advice can save lots of money down the road.
• while it's been a while, I recall that schools apply a percentage formula to both income and assets (in other words, I thought you were expected to pay 10% of the income and 5% of the reachable assets annually or vice versa)
• the goal of the schools is to drive an upper middle class family down an economic level (in most of these families, there will definitely be a life style retreat during those four years).

Coaches will go with the best available player without regard to FA need. While coaches want their players to apply ED/EA, many times LLs remain for late bloomers or other special circumstances. There are no "back up" recruits (waiting for a player to decide to accept his issued LL guaranteed spot) because coaches don't get "mulligan" LLs. But, if a player gets through admission on his own, there are roster spots available as true walk-ons.

All the financial stuff having been said, IMO, if the family can possible swing it and the kid fits the school, the Ivy schools are job factories and, especially in the financial fields, the opportunities extend around the world with salaries and training which will give the kid a head start in his life.

Ripken Fan posted:

David: I believe is a box on most on-line recruiting questionnaires in Ivies that ask "Applying for financial aid?"Maybe it wasn't checked. As long as financial aid form was filled on time (even if not on ED should be ok. End result to making a roster is D1 athletic ability and academic standing. A student with a high AI may not necessarily allow a team to add another player. It will allow the coach though to get the player who throws 90s or hits bombs through admissions, who may have a lower AI.  The on-line finances calculator should help too. Good luck.

Thanks Ripken.  On the Ivy recruiting questionnaire there isn't an "applying for financial aid" box.  That makes sense to me given Ivy is need based.  My nephew hasn't been told to apply until there's an offer.    

Gov,

Great question.  I agree with Ripken Fan.  End result should be academic standing and then athletic ability (in that order) IF the Coach can help or influence your nephews cause.  In my experience, Coaches don't have much influence during RD, so that does add a slight wrinkle to the RD equation.   Because it is RD (largest pool of candidates) it is most likely going to come down mostly to his academic competiveness with the other 3 applicants.   I don't think FA is going to be the overriding issue or enter into this decision much at all.

FWIW....For others who may go through this process in the future it is always a good idea to catch the eye of a couple Ivys to compare their FA packages during ED.  The Ivy my oldest son attended matched the FA package of another Ivy that initially was more generous by $2K.  

Good luck and please let me know if I can help in any other way.

Goosegg posted:

I think the inquiry on FA had more to do with player's ability to commit and the coach using  a likely letter spot ONLY on a kid who will attend. (LL's are a very limited commodity and a coach usually has only approximately 6 - 8 each year; if a LL is issued and the kid doesn't attend, the coach is down a recruited player.)

As for the accuracy of Ivy FA calculators, several points are important:

• H, Y, and P have the best FA, Dartmouth the worst. If a kid is gets a more favorable FA preread from one school, another Ivy will match if asked and if pushed. (But the schools have a huge amount of wiggle room because usually the FA pre read is based upon the family's "best guess" of their finances BEFORE tax returns have been filed for the relevant year and unless the information upon which the preseason was based is IDENTICAL, FA will change.)
• the more complex a family's finances (read that assets apart from the primary residence and retirement accounts), the less accurate the calculators.
• if the wage earners are self employed or own a small business the calculators are virtually worthless because each school will redo all financial information in order to get a true cash flow picture of the family (small businesses can really manipulate cash flow by prepaying expenses or purchasing large capital assets.  In this case, financial planners advise to begin the process of reducing income a couple of years before the target year).
• spending a couple of hours with an Ivy FA expert should be considered. For example, when the school asks for the value of real estate assets, that number is much less then the actual fair market value of the asset, etc.  Getting an expert's advice can save lots of money down the road.
• while it's been a while, I recall that schools apply a percentage formula to both income and assets (in other words, I thought you were expected to pay 10% of the income and 5% of the reachable assets annually or vice versa)
• the goal of the schools is to drive an upper middle class family down an economic level (in most of these families, there will definitely be a life style retreat during those four years).

 

Coaches will go with the best available player without regard to FA need. While coaches want their players to apply ED/EA, many times LLs remain for late bloomers or other special circumstances. There are no "back up" recruits (waiting for a player to decide to accept his issued LL guaranteed spot) because coaches don't get "mulligan" LLs. But, if a player gets through admission on his own, there are roster spots available as true walk-ons.

All the financial stuff having been said, IMO, if the family can possible swing it, the Ivy schools are job factories and, especially in the financial fields, the opportunities extend around the world with salaries and training which will give the kid a head start in his life.

Goose,  Regarding "Coaches will go with the best available player without regard to FA need", that's partly why I was surprised with the "will you need any financial assistance".  I'm guessing because it's getting late in the process, the Coach may have offered a few kids;ponying up another $30-50K per year could force some families to opt out of an Ivy opportunity.  

The Coach maybe trying to pre-screen the family financials before he offers a kid.  Could save time???

fenwaysouth posted:

Gov,

Great question.  I agree with Ripken Fan.  End result should be academic standing and then athletic ability (in that order) IF the Coach can help or influence your nephews cause.  In my experience, Coaches don't have much influence during RD, so that does add a slight wrinkle to the RD equation.   Because it is RD (largest pool of candidates) it is most likely going to come down mostly to his academic competiveness with the other 3 applicants.   I don't think FA is going to be the overriding issue or enter into this decision much at all.

FWIW....For others who may go through this process in the future it is always a good idea to catch the eye of a couple Ivys to compare their FA packages during ED.  The Ivy my oldest son attended matched the FA package of another Ivy that initially was more generous by $2K.  

Good luck and please let me know if I can help in any other way.

Thanks Fenway.  Also emphasizes the need to be ahead in this process, so that you're able to participate in the ED process vs RD.  Nephew has an AI of 218 with a 31 ACT.  Even with a decent AI, his ACT is not that strong for RD.   I don't know how it really works with athletes applying in the IVY RD process, as it relates to probability. 

I would concur that FA wouldn't be an over-riding factor, either there's a fit or not as a player.  After meeting with Coach yesterday (he visited nephew at HS), it's now down to 2 players.  They'll probably invite both players to college to meet with all the staff for a final decision.

Appreciate the input....

When S went through the process, his school only offered RD (it has since changed to offer EA also). But he was also recruited by schools which had ED/EA options. Those schools told him that often they recruited all the way through March if their supply of LLs hadn't been exhausted.

Theoretically, admissions runs the show for athletic recruits in the Ivy. That having been said, once a coach has been at a school long enough, he has a great feel for the academic bar needed to get most recruits admitted (the general exception is the future Ivy League POY who has a 28 ACT.)  (If the coach is new, his feel for the admissions standards may not be that developed.)

For athletes, the coach makes a non-binding offer, which the player acts on by submitting a completed application. Special committees review the applications (because the kids need to know if they will be admitted and won't stop their recruiting efforts until assured of a spot) basically when submitted and if admission is granted, the Likley Letter is then mailed. The LL is a guarantee of a spot in the class (subject to character issues, etc,. just like all other accepted applicants) which is then confirmed with the formal acceptance (around April).

One item which distinguishes the Ivy schools from other D1s is the limited number of recruited players a coach can secure each year (even if there is technically room on the roster). That limit is expressed by the LLs the coach is allocated (usually 6 -8, though apparently Penn has at least temporarily found a way around that). A coach will not commit to a LL unless he is sure the kid will accept (yes, occasionally a kid will get an LL and not accept but that is a rare case and shows the coach didn't do his homework; a part of that homework is determining if a kids family can pony up with whatever is needed to fill the FA gap).

So, it works something like this: coach has a LL available, coach ranks the players available based upon ability and admissibility, coach works down the list determining who will accept an LL. The acceptance of the LL from the family's side will often depend upon finances and the coach needs to close that loop. If the coach is wrong about the kid accepting the LL, the coach not only loses that player, but doesn't get to get an LL for the next kid on the list. In that case, coach has to hope that latter kid can get through admissions without athletic support (e.g., alum, developmental case, national spelling bee winner, etc.).  If a kid doesn't get an LL, theoretically he competes with all other applicants.

FA is a non factor for admissions; but FA may be a factor for the family. Coach needs to know whether his last LL will be wasted on a kid who can't afford to attend (or whose family can't suffer the financial pain).

As further unsolicited advice, I'd have the kid submit an application even without coaches support (unless he's committed to another D1). But the application must be treated as if he were a regular student. In other words, great essays (S's were pretty mediocre), overwhelming EC's, LORs, and the rest - the best application the kid can do (kids whose applications go before the special athletic committees don't need to have that type of application). He has nothing to lose but time and effort. 

Goosegg posted:

I =

• the goal of the schools is to drive an upper middle class family down an economic level (in most of these families, there will definitely be a life style retreat during those four years).

 

This isn't really true -- at least not anymore -- the financial aid formulas at these places have adjusted over recent years to make them more affordable not just for the poor, but for the middle and upper middle classes (as defined not by subjective self-perception, but by real numbers) as well. 

Yes, the schools are more "affordable" now then a decade ago. But, having gone through the process twice - with a kid still in one of those schools - I have to disagree. Unless a person has w-2 wages and limited reachable assets - the upper middle class kid's family will be measurably squeezed.

Is it worth it? Yes.

Is it better FA then other 65k/ year schools? Yes.

Is the FA guaranteed for all four years? No. (So improved finances in later years will reduce FA - compare that to academic scholarships which a kid who can get into an Ivy has available in other schools.)

Are there cheaper alternatives? Yes. Are there cheaper alternatives to comparable opportunities? IMO, no. 

To a family earning 250k (a lot of money), the bill will be more than 65k a year. That swallows almost 100k of that 250. For a family earning 180k (AGI) with minimal reachable assets, the bill will be roughly 30k. That swallows roughly 50k of the 180.  That shortfall effects the family lifestyle.

Re-reading Gov posts and subsequent ones by Goosegg, nephew seems to be taken as a preferred walk on. (Team wants you to play, but Likely Letters have been issued for Recruited, capital R players). Basically if you get admitted to the school, then a spot (or opportunity) is there. That's probably why the finances came up-- whether is worth coach's time to wait for regular decision. Definitely worth getting a reading from Financial Aid. Son's team had 2 non-likely letter recruits in his year (both pitchers). Both ended up being admitted to the school. One is playing with team. I think the other didn't try out.

Interesting observation Ripken.  But, if Coach is telling nephew, he's in the mix with 3 other players, now supposedly, down to nephew & 1 other player do you still think preferred walk on?

Appreciate the comments...

Quick question, how did you calculate the nephew's academic index?  I thought this was a state secret!

It's listed in previous threads, as well as in Tier One Athletics in case the following link doesn't open.

https://docs.google.com/spread...VJtUndPVlRHWEE#gid=0

Thanks Gov.  I know those on line calculators, but they are just a proxy and not necessarily exact if I understand it all correctly.  I'm excited though as 2017 has a 232  as a proxy...

Good luck to your nephew, keep us posted!

we went through a similar situation with my 2013 son for football at a high level academic DIII program.  .  At the time, I didn't understand why they were asking, so I called the coach myself- he explained that he could only support 25 incoming freshmen, and he wanted to be sure that finances weren't going to be an issue.  Didn't want to offer a position if the family was going to get "sticker shock" and back out after my son was accepted.      I assured him that we were on board, and he was offered, and asked to apply early decision.    Wasn't easy on the pocket book, but his sport helped him get in to a world class university with a 10% acceptance rate.  Good deal in our book. 

Good luck!

Twoboys posted:

Quick question, how did you calculate the nephew's academic index?  I thought this was a state secret!

 Here's another AI that was used before--it is helpful if you had SAT and Subject Tests, high school ranks students and you know son's (Or nephews) class size. The link also places student into a "Stanine" 1-9. At a number of Ivies, there is a certain average (with some tolerance) needed for each sport's recruiting class. 

http://www.satscores.us/MyChances/AI_Calculator.asp

Gov posted:

Interesting observation Ripken.  But, if Coach is telling nephew, he's in the mix with 3 other players, now supposedly, down to nephew & 1 other player do you still think preferred walk on?

Appreciate the comments...

Yes IMHO.  He would be a preferred walk-on from the Coaches view point but he has to get in....the Coach spent all his LL and ED support on other players  From the Admissions Committees view point, he is just another RD applicant.  This is going to be tough sailing, but as Goosegg suggested you should apply anyway.  This is all upside for the Coach and recruit, but getting Admissions to say "yes" is the real challenge.  Your nephew is competing against kids that own their own businesses, 2400 SAT scores, accomplished artists and musicians and possibly other athletes.