IVY COLLEGES - ATHLETIC ADMITS

We were told that the average GPA and SAT/ACT scores for each team has to match the overall student body - and that is the school for each Ivy. Sure, they may have a few on the lower end (maybe 3.5-3.6 to go with a 1330-1350 old measure SAT score and a 27-29 ACT?) as long as it is balanced out by kids on the upper end. Definitely still no slouch scores. That is what I was told by more than one Ivy when my son was being recuited, anyway.

BTW, William & Mary is not an Ivy. I've been told by graduates of that fine institution that it might have been if not for the Civil War.

The article references IVYs and I have watched the IVY presidents admit that they take lower scores from athletes. Read the article and stop listening to what people say. They have up to 30% Athletic Admits. I have seen this in several articles. They are obviously not talking about 2.0 but I am sure 3.0 on the 4.0 scale.
I posted another article in another thread saying the same thing from a recruited player who couldn't believe they were recruiting him..

BHD - I'm calling BS on this one. I know about some ballplayers with very good academic qualifications who were denied admission to Dartmouth. In general, Ivy athletes need to have the same level of academic achievement to earn admission as non-athletes do. There are certainly exceptions (think football), but not many.

As for the W&M article 'referencing' Ivys, it read more like Ivy League envy more than anything else. Here's the primary throw away line in the report:

"Even elite institutions that do not give athletic
scholarships in the Ivy League, the New England Small Colleges Athletic Conference,
and elsewhere have been criticized for admitting large numbers of athletic recruits."

Hardly a d***ing indictment. And no statistics or evidence to substantiate the claim. Weak.

You would have more credibility on this topic if your son had attended one of the Ivy schools. All of my understanding is based on my son's expereiene at Dartmouth. And that is getting dated.

My son's grades were good enough to get into an IVY. He went for the money, great city and the warm climate.
My son competes for jobs with Ivy grads. He has 3 Fortune 500 company offers.He also passed all their tests with top marks. He also competed with over 10,000 university students in a world wide business competition. He came in 84th. He is in the midst of a fantasy BB competition that is world wide. He is #1 and stands to win $500.us if he can hold until the end of the season. he graduated on the deans list and Big South Presidents honor role (all 4 years).
Does it offend you knowing that student athletes get Athletic Admits that have below standard scores ? That document is only one of many sources I get my info from.
Did you know that Stanford uses a bell curve to bring their students grades up? My prestigious college did the same thing. I am sure others may do the same thing.
I don't care if you believe the article or not. I do care that others don't erroneously avoid Ivys because they don't believe they have a chance.
Have any Ivy's sued the author of denied that they do this ? No.in fact they have admitted it on a documentary on public TV because they believe it is for the benefit of the colleges over all student mix.
The players you know who didn't get in may not meet other criteria.

quote:

Even elite institutions that do not give athletic
scholarships in the Ivy League, the New England Small Colleges Athletic Conference,
and elsewhere have been criticized for admitting large numbers of athletic recruits."

There is no ambiguity here. The Ivy's were criticized by their academic staff who challenged the administration on this very practice. They lost their challenge and I pity the jock that gets one as a prof.
The 2 hour documentary had the presidents of several Ivy's state their support of the practice. Too bad you missed it.
I forgot that my son was accepted by an Ivy feeder college. A D2 in Connecticut that boast their grad placement in the Ivy grad schools. Got a max academic scholarship and it was the largest package he was offered. He wouldn't go.

for my 2 cents and based on the recruiting experience of my son, "academic" schools such as the Ivy's definitely "fudge" a little when it comes to athletic recruits but i think it is just a little.

Basically you need to be within striking distance of the overall student population such that an SAT that is 150 or so points off the mark isn't fatal but a significant break from the average admit isn't going to cut it.

There is also the reality that if you don't have the academic "chops" for a given school, such as an IVY, what is the point, you won't stay eligible, your experience will likely be a horrific one and the cardinal rule on this site always seems to be to find a school that fits you. With no disrespect, a 2.0 student with a 1000 SAT is hardly a fit for Harvard.

Bottomline, doesn't hurt to apply, to look, to pursue and let the school decide if you make the "grade" for them or not.

have to burst your bubble dbg_fan...i spoke with an ivy league coach this summer who told me that his school slotted him "x" number of kids who needed, as a group, a certain average SAT score...he recruited a kid i know who did very well on the test. he was more than excited when this kid committed which then allowed him to go after another kid whose score was substantially lower...

I know two local high school baseball players who attended Ivies with high school gpa's of 3.5 and SAT's around 1300.

Ivy League Academic Index For Athletes

Hitithard - that is what I was saying in my earlier post. If they recruit kids with higher gpa's, sats, acts, then that is what allows them to go after kids with lower gpa's, etc. But the team averages have to be in line with the average for the entire undergraduate population. No doubt that there are some kids that are recruited that might surprise some people. But I would be very surprised if any of the schools would recruit a kid that would not be in the 3.5 gpa range with very respectable SATs and ACTs.

I hold open the possibility that some Ivy's may recruit kids that score lower than I imagine.

Bobblehead, if you have other sources as you state, such as documentation or admissions from the Ivy's themselve please point me to them.

I'm looking at Stanford's academic profile for the class of 2011. Probably a good proxy for the Ivy's. It says that 1% had a high school gpa of between 3.4 and 3.6 and less than 1% had a gpa of less than 3.4 How much lower it doesn't say. 98% of the class was in the top 20% of their high school class, etc. It may be safe to assume that the majority of those that don't meet these minimum standards might be atheletes, but who knows? Maybe one or two of them are great cellists.

I still think it is safe to say that a sports team at any of these ivy or ivy-like institutions would not boast an average gpa of 3.4 and an average sat of 1250.

RJM - I hadn't seen your posted when I posted my most recent two post. The document you provided says it all.

I know of a couple of kids playing/played at Vanderbilt who had 3.5's in high school and no AP or high honors classes.

I doubt Harvard won an NCAA D1 hockey championship (about ten years ago) with a bunch of high school valdedictorians.

When you see percentages that conflict with the norm it's not just athletes. It's also done for diversity of the student body.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I know of a couple of kids playing/played at Vanderbilt who had 3.5's in high school and no AP or high honors classes.

I doubt Harvard won an NCAA D1 hockey championship (about ten years ago) with a bunch of high school valdedictorians.

When you see percentages that conflict with the norm it's not just athletes. It's also done for diversity of the student body.

Every college I have researched, except Cal Tech, has athletic admits. It's not just an ivy thing. Colleges want well-rounded students and they want to see a student that finds the time to do other things besides study.

The Ivy League and NESCAC schools have athletic admits. Period. I believe the NESCAC even has written rules regarding how many, what they call tips, are allowed per school. Some coaches can or will talk about it more openly than others. My son attended the Yale camp last year (which I highly recommend for anyone interested in the Ivies or other highly rated academic schools) and they had an open session with frank discussions about the recruiting process. Each coach was asked how many slots they had. As best I can recollect, all of the Ivies in attendance (Yale, Brown, Columbia and Cornell)said between 7-8, except Cornell. He explained that per school guidelines that he could not discuss that issue. The elite LAC coaches in attendance said they had between 2-3 slots. MIT said he had 25 slots, but what he really meant was he gives a list of 25 players to admissions. I would assume he ranks those players according to whom he wants. He said that the previous year they were able to get 8 out of their top 12-15 players or something to that effect. The fact that these schools have athletic admits does not mean that recruits can be too far off from the typical admitted student profile, the admissions departments make sure of that. The Ivy league coaches probably have an easier time evaluating whether you are admissible due to the AI. My understanding is they have an average AI that they have to hit. One coach my son met with plugged his GPA and test scores into his computer right in front of us and confirmed that he was right in their recruiting range. The NESCAC coaches and schools such as MIT, Haverford and Swarthmore probably have to work closer with the admissions office to get a feel for their recruits' admissibility and with only a few slots they don't want to be wrong. One thing they all will tell you is that you have to apply ED if you want their support and according to both NESCAC and Ivy league websites no one can tell promise you admission except for the admissions department. Here is a quote from the NESCAC website. Link is below.

"The Coach's Role
While admission decisions are made exclusively by the admission committee, the coach's assessment of the athletic ability and potential contribution of each candidate is considered. Be aware that coaches at different colleges may evaluate the same student-athlete's ability differently. Positional considerations may also lead to different assessments of an applicant's value to a team.

It is important to remember that this is a college admission process with an athletic component, not an athletic recruiting process that comes with the opportunity to attend college. NESCAC coaches actively identify and recruit student-athletes and act as advocates for them; but no coach at any NESCAC college has the authority to offer, promise, or otherwise guarantee a spot in the incoming class to any recruited student-athlete."

Ivy League Athletic Admission Letter
NESCAC Statement of Common Admissions Practices

My son was also at the camp Burnt Orange's son attended (last summer -08). The below comments are from personal experience. I second all that is said above. I don't remember the Ivy coaches all saying 7-8 (Yale said 5, my recall), but they certainly were all around 5-8. And each coach talked about their admissions process with a slightly different angle - that is to say that they do not all have identical processes. At ALL of them however, the athlete must be academically qualified (whether they all use the AI in advance, they did not say, but I know that several do), the coach writes a rec. letter supporting the athlete, and the athlete must apply an be accepted by admissions - no passes! And you must apply EA or SCEA or ED (whatever the early process is for the respective school). For example, one Ivy (not at this camp) told my son that all of their supported athletes are presented to admissions as a package - which is to say that their grades, SATs, etc. meet a mid range on the AI - some may be lower, some may be higher - but they are presented as one group rather than individually (if that is the correct way to say it). Another Ivy coach (again, not one at this camp) "pre-qualified" his potential recruits on the AI to make sure the athlete (in this instance it was my son) he is recruiting fits the AI for his University before talking to the recruit - each athlete was taken on an individually qualified basis to the admissions office - NOT in a group. SO, in sum, while the Ivies use the athletic AI to qualify their recruits, whom they will support with a rec letter while the recruits must apply and gain admission on their own merit, their processes are not identical to each other.

I guess my son was one of those “dumb” jocks who got into Dartmouth because he could throw a baseball 90 mph.

All I know is our situation.

(From Dartmouth's website) Dartmouth offers 34 varsity sports - 16 for men, 16 for women and two coeducational programs in sailing and equestrian. In addition, there are 34 club and 24 intramural sports as three-quarters of Dartmouth undergraduates participate in some form of athletics.

With that many athletes, of course not everyone has “perfect” SAT’s, wears glasses and has a pocket protector (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Coach Whalen told us that he wrote a glowing recommendation for Josh, but that ultimately it was still in admissions hands.

Josh still had to jump through all hoops that every other prospective student goes through. He had a lot of community service, had to write essays, go through an interview process with an alumni, had to have at least the minimum entrance SAT scores, HS GPA 3.96 graduating 5th in his class. So, would he have gotten in without the coaches recommendation? I doubt it, but he did have at least the minimum requirements and the admissions thought that he would be able to succeed. They were correct.

Josh knows of some who were turned down for admissions that were smarter than him. As others have pointed out, colleges nowadays are looking for well rounded individuals.

So for those who want to continue to “diss” athletes at higher educational institutions, have at it.

quote:

So for those who want to continue to “diss” athletes at higher educational institutions, have at it.

Who is dissing anyone ?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

quote:

So for those who want to continue to “diss” athletes at higher educational institutions, have at it.

Who is dissing anyone ?

Sorry.

I should have said "dissing the institutions that bring in the less than stellar academically gifted students".

Same reply. No one is dissing them either. Personally I think it is a complement to the colleges who recognize the importance of diversity.
My purpose was to show that BB players should not give up on the Ivys and that there are a lot of smart kids who can get into these colleges that they think are beyond their reach.

I'm not dissing anyone. My son has an unweighted 3.5 through two years of high school taking very challenging courses. He would have a 4.0 if he took less challenging courses or committed his life to studying. I told him to get at least a 3.5 in the courses he's taking, have a life and see where it takes him.

It worked for my daughter. She's not at an Ivy. But she's done so well in college while playing sports, she'll most likely get accepted to U Florida's School of Law. If you want to have a career in Florida I can't think of a better place to get your grad degree. There's just a few alumni hanging around the state.

When I went to college my dad told me not to let studies get in the way of my education. It worked for me.

Both my son's college roommates were 4.0 students all through HS and college. One was on the academic all American team, the other quit BB in his soph year due to coaching issues. The one who quit is attending USC law school, the other is taking a year break. Both amazing young men.

quote:

I thought I would post this because of all the mis information about IVY colleges admissions.
They have and still do admit athletes without high Sat's and GPAs.

I just wanted to bring us back to the comment that got this thread going. I guess ultimately it depends on what scores are considered 'not high' GPAs and SATs. It is a given that the Ivy's have athletic recruits. Whether they have average or low SATs and GPAs might be debatable, but even if they were a bit lower than the average for the school I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that they were not still high.

Interesting thread; I have a few questions...

So how many players do Ivy League schools actually recruit each year? I assume Yale recruits more than 5 players a year, even if it doesn't use the tip on all of its recruits?

Would an Ivy coach use a tip on someone above the norm in terms of academic qualifications? Or is it assumed that this person would make it in, with or without the tip?

Does a recruited athlete need the tip in order to receive a boost in the admissions process? Or do all recruited athletes receive admissions boosts, while tips receive a more significant admissions boost?

Monster, not sure I understand what you mean by "tip" - if you mean letter of rec from the coach, then any athlete that they are recruiting, who commits to them and applies early, will get a letter of rec in their file. However, the athlete must apply and be accepted by the admissions office. Each school will recruit however many they feel they need and can get within their range. From experience, when my son turned those down who had offered him (and also offered official visits), they turned to their next in line. I do not think they have fixed numbers - it is a flux - they need players in positions to replace those they know will graduate (or get drafted), they need players to fill positions where they are weak, the same stuff for all schools, the same way it works everywhere.

Here is how it worked for us:

Son contacted on July 1. Talking on the phone, emails, some personal visits by coaches, watching him play where he was over the summer and talking in person, some schools he visited unofficially (at first). (side note: it was very impressive contact and discussion on both sides from all schools). Official visits offered, with letters of rec offered. Son declined official visits when he accepted at another school, however, the next step at any of these Ivies would have been for him to apply to the college of his choice early action (of whatever early program that particular school had), and get himself accepted. At least one college coach told my son that they had prequalified him on the AI and so they felt highly confident he would get in. I do know two others who will be at an Ivy this year who were told they were border line, but they DID get in, and are thrilled to be going to these schools. Caveat: "border line" is still not the same at an Ivy as "border line" for another school. It is still high. I also know another (a couple of years back) who was not a fully recruited player, but who nonetheless got their "athlete application" forms to use in applying. However, just because they have a certain app that says or denotes "athlete", the kid STILL needs to get himself/herself into the school by doing the complete application, and being accepted by admissions. I cannot tell you how much weight is given to this at the admissions level, only an admissions officer could tell you this, but come on - there is no way to calculate any fixed set of circumstances.

Bottom line, it has been our experience that any elite school who is recruiting you -- and assuming you have gotten this far with them, and with whom you must apply on your own and get in on your own, with a rec letter from the coach -- should (and probably would) let you know if they feel you are border line to get in. There are ranges of who will qualify, some colleges ranges are higher some are lower. Take a look at the AI posted above. Son was very fortunate to have received the offer from his dream, where he DID have to apply and get in on his own merit (with a rec from coach).

This process for any kid at any college is a float - all things must be considered. Academics certainly are first anywhere, then comes baseball talent paired with level of college play. Next up in order of consideration I would say depends on you and your family - how much do you want to go to that college - does it have the programs you want to study, the location, the cost - many other factors.

I repeat - academics are always first.

^ When I say tip I mean the particular admissions boost that coaches can offer a certain number of players each year; it was being discussed on the first page of this thread.

Oh, and one more thing - all HSs are different in their grading systems and their academic programs offered. A 3.9 from one school is not a 3.9 at all schools. A 4.3 at one school may be the same as a 3.8 at another. Some HSs will have more APs to offer than others, and all will consider them differently - some will weight, some will not. Then there is the geography to consider - where is the school located - rural, urban, east coast, west coast, mid atlantic, south, midwest, etc. and whatever that has to say to an admissions officer. I do not intend to make any comment one way or the other on any of this as far as geography - or private school v. public - just stating variables that apply. Standardized testing remains constant nationwide. Ivies and all colleges/universities KNOW the HSs well - each of their admissions officers KNOWS the schools in their area like the back of their hand - they KNOW if the school is grade deflated, grade inflated or not, and so on.

So, it is not really possible to say that a 3.9 from this HS, or a 4.1 from that one, will or won't make it in to any university.

Monstor - Thanks for explaining tip. I think that, for the most part, ANYONE can use a tip at these schools. I've seen stats (recalling from memory) that even for kids with a 4.0 and a 1500 SAT (old scale) these schools will only admit 1 out of 4 applicants on the high end to 1 out of every 7 on the low end. Not just the Ivys but other schools such as Stanford, Berkley, etc. They are looking for well rounded kids that have differentiated themselves in other ways as well.

My son had a 3.8 at a very competitive high school, several APs with mostly 5's, ACT and SATS in 97th or 98th percentile. Based on the profile of the incoming class it would have been a crapshoot that he would have gotten into an Ivy without the tip.
He is a well rounded kid and I recognize that baseball and his other activiIies gave him the edge and that he had a higher probability of not being admitted otherwise. But, he could have had a 35 ACT, a 1550 SAT, and a 4.0 and it still would have been a crapshoot.

While these schools do have athletic admits, I would be surprised if there are very many that don't have at least a 3.6, SATS in the 1330+ range, and ACTs at least 28 or 29. I would hardly consider these low scores.

If anyone knows otherwise please let us know. The pool could be a lot wider than I realize. I expect there may be a few admits with lower scores but any school that prides itself on 'academics first' can't deviate too much. And if they did, I would bet their sports programs would be a lot more competitive.

So why do you think there was a challenge to the practice by several Ivy staffs ? According to the presidents of several Ivys they would not stop the practice. I have not been able to find the 2 hr documentary that I watched where they admitted the practice and felt it was beneficial to the overall student experience.

Bobblehead - I'm not saying that Athletic Admits do not occur. Obviously they do and probably pretty frequently. I'm just saying that even the Athletic recruits are still very strong students. I'm sure there are some that will be at the lower end of the 'strong' spectrum.

I have 'heard' that the right recruit - in the right sport - can get into Stanford with a 3.4 and a 1250 SAT. This would obviously be a significant deviation from the average student population. I think the Ivies would require something more.

Like the admissions officer told my son "We could admit a whole class of 4.0 and 1500 plus SAT students if we want to, but this this place would be pretty boring".

So does this mean that:
1) For recruited athletes without "tips" (I assume Yale has quite a few of these considering that they only offer 5 tips), they aren't really subject to the typical recruited athlete admissions boost?
2) Coaches will use tips on athletes with academic qualifications above the norm?

quote:

Bobblehead - I'm not saying that Athletic Admits do not occur. Obviously they do and probably pretty frequently. I'm just saying that even the Athletic recruits are still very strong students. I'm sure there are some that will be at the lower end of the 'strong' spectrum.

Strong is relative. I think in the vast majority of people's minds, a "3.6 [GPA], SATS in the 1330+ range, and ACTs at least 28 or 29" composes a smart student. But in terms of Ivy League admission standards, an applicant with those academic qualifications would most likely be rejected without other notable factors (such as, of course, being a recruited athlete).

Monstor it is totally conjecture to guess at how many and how low these academic admits are. They were enough to get a challenge by the staff of several Ivy schools.
These TIPS as you call it is standard procedure at many colleges. Some coaches demand you apply through them so there are no screw ups. As has been noted, many deserving student do not get accepted.
My advice would be to apply were you want. The schools that are interested in you for BB, apply through the coach.

I may have to back off of my previous stance, at least partially. Based on another thread on HSBBW I happened to go out to one of the Ivy League schools and look at some of their players. They still had people designated as Freshmen that are now sophomores. I looked at one kid and looked him up on PGCrossChecker. At least as far as what was listed there, he had a 3.5 and a 1210 SAT. More power to the kid, and these are still good grades and scores, but I certainly wasn't expecting that.

Of course, his scores could be an early 'take' and he possibly got them up on later attempts.

quote:

These TIPS as you call it is standard procedure at many colleges. Some coaches demand you apply through them so there are no screw ups. As has been noted, many deserving student do not get accepted.

Hypothetically, let's say I was being recruited by Yale but they said that they wouldn't offer me a tip because they wanted to use their 5 tips on their very top prospects who have relatively weak academic stats. Does this mean that I have to face the normal admissions process in order to get in and play baseball there? Or is there still an advantage in the sense that while my academic standards can't deviate from the standard, as long as I have the academics to make it into Yale without baseball, I will get in?

As most of us know Yale is a school that rejects the majority of perfect SAT scorers and that just because someone has the stats to make it in doesn't mean that they will. Essentially, my main question is if being recruited by Yale despite not receiving a tip at least brings reassurance when applying to Yale with well-qualified stats. This question comes with the assumption that Yale really only offers 5 tips and that they nevertheless have more than 5 incoming players each year.

Ask for a "likely letter" This will let you know where you stand as far as admission and baseball.

Ken, I think you have to apply and get in first (application is ED/SCEA/EA whichever system the school uses) and THEN you get your "likely".

monster, it used to be that beyond those who the coach recruits, he would have a "special" application that he could give out - I am not sure which Ivy uses this system, or even if any of them still do, but it was a marked application that would kind of give you application a "lift" through the process.

PS - go read the Yale Daily - it just ran an article about the 6 incoming freshman for the '10 season.