Ivy League - Princeton's October Prospect Camp

I'd be interested to see what others post on the timeline of when Ivy's look at potential recruits and how far out they are looking.  

The one note I'd give to you is on cost and potential bang for your buck.  That camp is pricey for a one college camp - looks like exposure and feedback would only be from the Princeton coaches.  If your son's focus is on academic schools you should consider the Nov Headfirst camp in Fla where there will be over 100 schools (based on my experience in NY) and all the Ivies will be in attendance.  

We're thinking about attending because it will be our first eye opener to an Ivy program, a chance to get to know the Princeton coaches, and a chance to see the caliber of 2017's & 2018's attending and considering an Ivy

I think those are all good reasons. Sort of think of it like a voluntary unofficial visit, to help get to know the school and the feel.

I expect your son will get on a mailing list. Whether or not the camp will result in the start of a serious relationship depends on his performance. Coaches will not ignore obvious talent, and at the same time they should be smart enough to understand that 2018s have a lot of developing to do.

Note that many Ivy camps in the summer have coaches from multiple schools (including other Ivies) in attendance...so a possible better value if that is an issue.

Good point MKbaseballdad

I'll have to look at which Ivy's are attending.  The question I have about the November HeadFirst Camp: are the colleges only focused on 2017's and it's the first time they look at 2018's?  Typically the colleges have a shopping list of position players they need and they work off of a HeadFirst list of players and their ACT & GPA's. A 2018 only has 2 graded semesters under their belt and they won't really waste their time. Next August & November HeadFirst might be more applicable for 2018's.  

When and how do Ivy coaches start recruiting around core positions.  (Recruiting in the Ivy sense as in developing relationships with players that have reached out to them via email with video)  It sends a strong message to a coach when a player they've heard from, then shows up on their campus.  (I would think)

I maybe answering my own questions here, but, I'm really interested in any others that have attended and have opinions on this subject.

(I know that time will tell if he's an ACC academic player or Ivy player, or D3, but he wants great academic and great baseball)

If you are going to attend the camp, you need to address why you would be going.  Ivies recruit later than the power conferences.  They usually dont start much until after your sophomore year.  They need to know your grades and preferably your test scores as well before they really get started.  If you want your son to get a dose of the coaching staff and see some of the other prospects that are older then it may be worthwhile just for experience to get em ready for next year.  Most 2018s will not get a look unless they are a "wow" kid, even if they are very good for their class.  I would probably do 1 or 2 camps just for his experience, but do not expect any reaction from the camp coaches.

Princeton asks first about grades and scores, then on to baseball skills. As someone noted, a sophomore will most likely lack scores and not have enough of the type of courses needed to extrapolate if the player will hurdle the academic bar.

Moreover, in recent years Princeton has tumbled from a program competing for an Ivy championship to a laughingstock. Last year, the team had one of the worst records (conference and non conference) in the history of the school and for the first time in many years, no players drafted. And, there is no hope on the horizon. With a new AD beginning her second year, and the school's pride in its athletic programs always competing for a league title, I could mount a good argument that changes could be made in coaching - making camp attendance a total waste.

i have heard from some very good sources that email to the coaches generally go unanswered. 

HF camps are a better - though more pricey - alternative. I have no problem with sending a 2018 with outstanding skills to that camp (regardless of physical maturity). Coaches note everything and while they are focussing on 2016 and 2017, a 2018 with skills who is not afraid to compete with older players, and willing to engage the coaches on and off the field will gain valuable experience points.

My points about the state of the current Princeton program notwithstanding, any player who has an opportunity to matriculate there should take that opportunity and never look back. While the program is struggling, the HC is a great mentor of his players and he understands - really understands - that academics are the highest priority.

Perhaps a college trip to a series of Ivy's once he has his test scores, making sure the coaches are on campus so he can "pop in" with his transcript (without parents at the meeting) would be a productive endeavor.

Thank you for the comments.  I wasn't aware of the possible coaching scenario..

The coaching scenario is purely speculative.

I generally agree with Goosegg's comments, with the following observations:

1. I have personal experience that email communication a couple of years ago from the then (and current) recruiting coordinator was excellent. Not cookie-cutter. Personalized and honest.

2. Coaching changes can and do happen all the time. Harvard (previous coach passed away) and Brown are recent examples in the past few years. If you try to handicap and overthink that, your efforts can get frozen. (Not that you need to rush into anything since we are talking about a 2018). Sure, any personal relationship with a fired coach would be lost, but you would still be in the database.

Princeton did have an off year in 2015. They only had four incoming freshmen last year. Slots got cut? They lost out on slotted recruits? I have no idea. But there are nine incoming freshmen on the current roster, so it seems that the situation is back on track.

Princeton baseball has gone from 15 league wins in 2011 (championship), to 13 in 2012, 11 in 2013, 7 in 2014, and 4 in 2015. The trend is not its friend. No slots were cut. Last year's team was - quite simply - awful; no pitching, catching, hitting, or fielding, and just generally poor fundamental baseball. (Princeton did have a player with previous connections to baseball drafted last year - my bad.).

Moreover, Ivy competition has gotten much stiffer with Penn (also under new coaching) building quickly to compete with always good Columbia, Harvard now on track, and always competitive Dartmouth. Generally, older teams win in the Ivy and freshman heavy teams take a few years to develop. 

Make no mistake, however, Princeton beats the bushes looking for players. They find them everywhere in the U.S.

Appreciate the comments.  You're right about being cautious on overthinking.  Focusing on the Ivy campus visit and then we happen to go to a camp that weekend might be a good approach.  But he'll have emailed and sent video prior to the visit.

I'm leary with the HeadFirst at this point; lots of kids and lots of coach's focused on kids that have already taken the ACT along with 4 semesters under their belt.  We're trying to be realistic:  he's a good player and student; if he can visit and start developing rapport with the coaching staff, why not?

He'll shut down his arm for 10-12 weeks after that and stay focused on strength and continued skill development.

My son is receptive to most of the other Ivy's.  We realize that there has to be a fit with position on any team, and then sometimes, it's just about having good timing.  We had 2 kids from our HS go to Dartmouth the past year, seems to be a trend here.  Geographically more difficult to get to though....

EDIT to my previous post:

In addition to coaching changes in the past couple of years at Harvard and Brown, you can add Penn (I see Goosegg mentioned that) and Cornell. How many recruiting coordinators have changed in the same period of time could be more.

Can can understand your concerns about HF at this point - there will be lots of players there and I agree that at that stage (Nov) there may be lots of last looks at 2016s.  There does also seem to be a focus on pitchers at HF (which is why it worked out for us).  

Has he done a college camp before?  The reason I ask is that I'm not sure how much of a rapport he's going to get to have with the coaches at that or any other camp.  They will be there but a lot of his interaction will be with current players and I think you'll find that even at these one school camps the HC and RCs will be focused on the one or two players who they may sign now for next year's roster.  At the last camp my 2016 attended the RC took a LHP off after he pitched and did not return.  I've seen other posts here by dads whose sons were visiting with the HC of a school while the camps were going on (without the HC present).  

There are other threads going now about camps and their place and value.  I'm not going to vote against them in this or the other threads.  They have their place and can be valuable but I'm not sure there is value in attending a camp at that price point to get a feel for camps (they are pretty much all run in the same format) or see the level of competition (there will be a few that stand out, a bunch in the middle talent wise, and a few that make you scratch your head - that rule has applied to virtually every camp or showcase we went to).  I think it would be better to attend after submitting the recruiting questionnaire, sending video, etc and building the rapport that way and having the coach reach out to have your son attend.  Just my opinion - I'm sure others will chime in with other viewpoints.   

I echo MK and others.  We're saving camps for those schools that show genuine interest. I'm hoping for one!  Would be thrilled if there turns out to be more. But my kids a 2017 and at a geographic disadvantage...way too far away and way too expensive to pick off camps one by one.  

BUT, if you're in the area and the price is right, no question I would pick a few camps at schools my son was interested in.  I would only be going for the experience, however, and not with any great hopes of being discovered.  Of course, your results may vary.

Hi Gov: Welcome to the site. I would say at this point I would try to get bang for the buck and attend a HF or Showball camp (Mega Camp in Florida has many of the Ivies ..100 + schools), or a PG Academic. Son went to Showball during winter of sophomore and junior years and HF summer prior to junior year. Headfirst has Ivies and NESCAC schools along with several other DIII academics with smaller recruiting budgets. We found that some Top96 camps has clusters of Ivies in attendance at certain locations (mainly those geographically close).

The Ivy league does build a bank of names early (I encourage your son to fill out a recruiting questionnaire on-line, then update it regularly.) The recruiting questionnaire shows your initial interest; your son's G.P.A will help as well. Tell him not to let up academically. I would also advise son to take his SAT/ACT early (I think my son took his early fall Junior year show he'd have the score to show during the early recruiting phase). Ivy League likes the depth of your transcript as well (AP classes). If SAT is your preference, then he'll need at least two subject matter tests too, which is best to take right after he's has the class (son took his on the June date).

Back to the focus of your original question, I would think campus visits over camps would be good at this stage, with a video sent before visit(unofficial are unlimited and can take place most times). Showcases will be a better barometer in terms of how your son will stack up, and get more for your money's worth. When the Ivy season starts, go to a game and see the style and level of play.  Most Ivies do have separate camps including Penn in September and July, Yale in October and also in summer, Harvard at end of August and in their "bubble" during MLK and President's day weekend. The bubble camps fill-up quickly and have MANY PLAYERS.Other schools from the new England Boston Area (Such as MIT/Tufts) attend.  Princeton has one in July as well.

It's good that you are ahead of the recruiting curve as an 2018. If the Ivy is the route your looking to take, your son will see many of the same players at the same type of events. From what we've seen most of the heavy recruiting occurs Junior year, with most offers during summer following junior year. An occasional early commit to a P or C, with Penn seeming to commit earlier than other Ivies.

Good luck to you and son!

Thank you Ripken.  He went to the Duke Prospect Camp and a PG Underclass Showcase.  Both good experiences for different reasons.  He's never been to any Ivy campus or visited a college while they're in session so the Princeton Camp could work.  

The comments have been valuable - Thank you all.

Gov,

Welcome.  Very good advice by all in terms of recruitment.  Each Ivy school is different in terms of look and feel, and there have been numerous coaching changes lately.  So I think there is a good chance some of the venues and showcases the recruiters attend will also change.  

The bottom line is exactly what Goosegg stated first....grades and scores (SAT/ACT) and then baseball.  So if your son has the academic and athletic chops to get that attention now (and stay on their radar), then he should absolutely do the Princeton camp.  If he is not quite there yet then possible HeadFirst or another showcase may be a better use of time/money to get broader exposure and then focus in on Ivys when the time is right.

Another perspective is that Ivys want D1 caliber recruits on their rosters.  If your son can generate interest among D1 mid-majors, he can also generate interest among the Ivys if his grades and board scores are there.  If an Ivy coach sees a D1 talent and learns they have the scores to back it up, it won't take long for him to show interest. Just about every Ivy starter out there had multiple mid-major D1 offers but opted for that Ivy path.

Separating yourself is very difficult when you are looking at about 64 roster spots per year in the conference assuming 8 teams with 8 roster spots.  Coaches will recruit the best athlete they can get through Ivy Admissions, and coaches don't always get all the recruit they want  So, having a contingency plan is always highly suggested.  As always, JMO.

Good luck!

Just my opinion but if you serious about Ivy the cost of the camp should be a non factor in the descion making process. You are talking about a 325k education give or take bit....couple camp charges are just not worth being concerned about 

Ivies have great need-based aid, in general. Each one is a little different.

Depending on a family's financial situation, Ivy need-based aid can make an Ivy a lot cheaper than other D1s offering typical 25%--33%--50% athletic scholarships.

So folks,don't automatically cross off an Ivy because of the sticker price.

(Also, the sticker price is about 4 x $65,000, which is a lot less than $325k, for the folks who don't qualify for need-based aid)

Damn I did a little search and you are correct, it is cheaper then I guessed.... All the more reason to not worry about camp fees! 

Son's Legion coach used to be D1 pitching coach with some recruiting responsibility. He was at a showcase with a number of coaches (cross-section) and was siting next to a Princeton coach. They compared notes of players they were looking at. Son's coach had several players he was coming to see on his clipboard, Princeton coach had two on his list.."only two he thought could get past Admissions"

Good thread with a lot of good info.  While the Ivy timeline may be be a little later than other D1 conferences, it is moving up like everyone else.  I'm pretty sure there are 2017's committing to Ivy schools right now.  Others have documented some of the coaching changes over the past couple of seasons and I would expect they will be recruting aggressively.  It wouldn't surprise me to see more Ivy recruit classes moving into the top 100 over the next few years.  The other item of note is transfers, my son's Ivy has two this year from very highly regarded D1 programs, and had at least one (that I can think of) last year.

Makes sense to me, but the challenge will continue: how do you recruit a kid early and gauge his ability to handle the academics.  Should be able to have a "soft verbal offer" contingent on minimum ACT or SAT scores?  Notre Dame offered an elite HS freshman a few years ago, conditional on him achieving a 24 on his ACT.  He did not make the cut and will be playing for another top D1 program.  Notre Dame admissions had their out.

In most cases it is SAT or ACT scores that trip up a would-be Ivy recruit.  I've seen it many, many times.  So, you either demonstrate a winning SAT/ACT score junior year or you come close and maintain their athletic interest with the hope of getting a better score in the near future. It truly is that simple and that hard.  Even if you have a great SAT/ACT score, most Ivy coaches will acknowledge it but ask you to take it again so you can help boost another recruits score as it helps the team. 

As I've posted many times, I (now) think it is best to take the SAT/ACT earlier (Fall) if a potential Ivy recruit is ready than wait for the Spring.

As always, JMO.

While I am certain that every Ivy coach would like to have a class full by summer before senior year through verbal offers, it doesn't work that way - for most players.

As usual, Fenway nailed it; the admission puzzle must be complete and that includes three components for athletes (barring character issues): proper curriculum (rigorous or most rigorous the HS offers), stellar grades in those classes, acceptable test scores. Since each program has at most eight slots (some less) a coach cannot extend an "offer" (which is more akin to an offer to apply then a regular D1 verbal) to more then eight guys. There is no such animal as over recruiting. (The other application components for athletes are pretty much non-events [EC depth, essays, outside awards].)

This doesn't mean the coach will have no contact or flirtations - indeed, while eight slots are available, the coach will have multiples of eight on the little white board in every office, and continuing the flirtations is necessary especially because there is a large overlap in the guys each school is after.

It is said that a 30 ACT is the magic number - though it can drop below that a couple of points for the best in breed type of player.

S in tenth grade met the then Harvard coach while H was on a west coast swing. First words: do you have your scores. We understood; no point on wasting anyone's time unless you can get in. In eleventh grade during a visit to another Ivy, S met the coach, handed over his transcript (with the scores) and was told "now that's a [insert school name here] transcript."

Ivy recruiting doesnt need to wait until summer before senior year; but to get into position for earlier recruiting takes a lot of advanced planning: accelerated classes should begin in ninth grade, all testing completed during fall of junior year, attracting the notice of a coach as a rising junior are all components.

also, not all Ivys accept transfers.

Excellent.  I know my question and comments are a weave of what has been posted in the past, but everyone taking the time to provide updated viewpoints are appreciated.

Princeton Camp is 4 weekends away and we have better context to make a decision. 

Since each program has at most eight slots (some less) a coach cannot extend an "offer" (which is more akin to an offer to apply then a regular D1 verbal) to more then eight guys.

 

Penn has added 11 freshmen and 2 transfers this fall. Press release below announcing this is dated Sept 14, 2015. That is too early to have had walk-on tryouts and make decisions. 

Are you sure about the eight slot rule? I know Ivy football has a cap on slots, but the League regulates baseball slots too?

http://www.pennathletics.com/V...amp;ATCLID=210341997

Those numbers include all baseball players - not just the LL guys. Every team will have true walk-ons - the guys who got on on their own (they could be in a preferred category like alum, URM, whatever) and they are obviously included in the announcements which appear during the fall once classes have begun.

but I'm also digging to find out more details!

If you say so, but not persuaded.

I think each school has the discretion to allocate as many slots as they see fit to baseball, and that there is not an Ivy League limit of eight.

And Sept 14 is just too early for walk-on tryouts and decisions. Penn--or any Ivy--could get in a heap of trouble if significant numbers of applicants are walking-on...and walking on by the first week of fall workouts.Why?

That would give rise to the suspicion that the school is really recruiting more than the total per-school limit of 230 athletes each year, as set by the Ivy League, and calling the excess, ahem, "walk-ons". (some schools voluntarily set limits lower than 230--Yale and Brown are prime examples)

that 230 number is something I've never seen before.  Can you point us toward more info on that?  Between AI and specific # of slots and 230 athletes total and the school colors, well, it's all just so complicated!

I can just speak really to experience. S's team had at least one non LL player each year. The player just didn't randomly show up at practice. These were players who were told by the coach that if they got in one their own there was a spot for them on the team. Within that group were "developmental" admits, political admits, alum kids. The difference is that these kids admission was not through the baseball coach's request for a LL.

I would imagine that internally a school has flexibility in how to allocate LLs - so long as the 200+ number isn't exceeded. (so if a school has 230, 115 are available for men's sports; football absorbs the most, then I could imagine the rest of the coaches fight for the remainder. I wonder what happens if a kid leaves the school, does that mean that additional LLs could be issued to replace that loss over and above the 230?) 

At Penn you have new coaches with an emphasis on winning.  I knew that Penn admits transfers - about 200 per year out of 2000 applicants. Stay tuned - the coaches take competitive balance very seriously and Penns moves are a direct assault to that belief. So either the other coaches adapt or make the "understandings" into official rules. Interesting to watch as I thought that Penn had the most raw talent last year, but Columbia had the most experience. I expect Penn to make a strong run this year.

But simple math demonstrates that bringing in 11 freshmen a year doesn't work.

You're familiar with Penn, how many players left the team (not in the normal course) since the new coaches arrived? In the coaches first year, did recruiting fall in the cracks, so an argument could be made to play catch-up? I see only five seniors and seven non transfer juniors on the roster, so those years appear very lite. 

Hi Goosegg - not questioning anything in your post, just seeking a little clarity - when you say that coaches take competitive balance very seriously and Penn's moves are a direct assault to that belief.......what exactly do you mean?  What is it that Penn is doing that is a direct assault?  Is it the number of players in the freshman/transfer class?  Just curious.

The hallmark of all Ivy athletic programs is the kids stay and play all four years. A hallmark of new coaches is clearing the decks for their own players.

For example, of the nine players Penn announced in the class of 2016, four remain on the roster. I believe if a roster has that type of turnover, it will attract the attention of the league. (it certainly could be fine in that a new regime brings in new conditioning, etc., which a senior who is not a regular would not be motivated to do. Or it could be due to injuries. Or it could be the other extreme where the new coaches run off the older players to make room for his guys. The Ivy League prides itself on low roster turnover. if the Penn coaches have developed a new approach (think Moneyball), the other coaches will imitate.

Penns APR in 2013 for baseball was a perfect 1.000. Those numbers don't include the last two years under the new coach. If the players left the team and stay to graduate, the APR isn't effected. I suspect that any player who left the team remains in school, so the APR wouldn't be impacted. What happened to the players who matriculated as baseball players, but aren't on the roster any more?

I understand - thank you for the explaination, that helps a lot.

Penn is also the only Ivy with a known 2017 recruit. Other Ivy coaches have said (at HF, in emails) they are finishing their 2016 recruiting classes and turning attention to 2017 shortly.  

I have noticed that HYP tends to hold closer to the 7-8 players per year than the other Ivy schools. I also noticed that the bigger rostered Ivies tend to have players who don't play at all Freshman year. As Goosegg said some players were seen by coaches after LL are issued and are given a look (perhaps a slot) by the coaching staff (INVITE to "tryouts")if they get admitted without "support." Often times it is a pitcher. Some current players see that their playing time is cut over the years (and won't be increased) so they leave the program. Because no Athletic $$ is given, they can remain a student if academics remain up to par. Not a bad deal for a student seeking a degree from the Ivy that may not have gotten in on his own. I too noticed the class of 2015 at Penn was 13 students. I haven't seen such a class at an Ivy for the past few years. One of their classes on roster is small though.

Where did you find this?

that 230 number is something I've never seen before.  Can you point us toward more info on that?  Between AI and specific # of slots and 230 athletes total and the school colors, well, it's all just so complicated!

 

Here ya go!

Here’s one more fact to help shed light on the process, this is from a Harvard Crimson article, June 27, 2003:

At its biannual meeting, the Council of Ivy Group Presidents limited the number of recruited athletes who may matriculate to 1.4 times the number needed to fill the travel squads for the 33 “Ivy Championship” sports.

The minimum Academic Index (AI), a measure of eligibility that incorporates SAT scores and GPA or class rank on a 240-point scale, was also raised from 169 to 171, and a requirement was added that the mean AI of recruited athletes be no more than one standard deviation below the mean of all undergraduates at the particular college

(The AI minimum has been raised to 176 since this article was published)

So we know that each college in the Ivy League is granted a set number of spots for recruited athletes. At a school that fields that full number of Ivy Championship sports this may be around 230 spots per year over a rolling 4 year period. These 230 individuals are used in the Academic Index calculation. Their names are on a list that is submitted by the coach to admissions and their entire application, test scores, essays and recommendations are evaluated by admissions. Before they get on this list, their academics have been pre-screened. The vast majority of recruited athletes that make it to the list are admitted.

http://www.tier1athletics.org/...vy-league-academics/

And:

Athletic recruitment numbers have been a heated topic of discussion at Yale since Levin cut the number of slots eight years ago, creating an in-house cap on the number of recruited athletes that can be admitted to Yale — 180 each year — that is lower than the Ivy League quota of 230 per year.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/...t-remains-uncertain/

I just checked Perfect Game and Penn has two 2017s listed as committed.  They are the only Ivy with 2017s committed on PG (that I saw).  Largest class committed in 2015 and good number committed for 2016 already.