Ivy League Short Season

If he doesn't chime in, PM (Dialog) Fenwaysouth

We're always interested in responses to a post like this.  My 2018 would love to play for a top academic D1:  Stanford (dream), Duke, ND, Rice, NW.... and Ivy's are also an interest. We're hearing: fewer games in the season, lighter off season and lighter summer schedule.  Players seem to be more focused on the next 40 years versus next 4 years.  A lot of the players would love to play the pro's, but they know the odds aren't that great, but still possible.  

Thanks for posting....

"The Ivy degree is a nice tradeoff but even so, is the 1/3 shorter season a detractor for recruits? If anyone has any experience or thoughts, I'd be curious to hear."

The Ivy League is a job factory. There is absolutely no impediment for a pitcher; nor for hitters who would have been comfortable at an SEC school to head to proball. There is no better hedge in the event the MLB career hopes get stopped earlier than planned. 

Apart from Stanford, IMO, any player who can leverage baseball into an Ivy League school should go that route. 

Do high academic recruits pass on Ivies? There is a particular Ivy coach who stops recruiting a player if he finds out the kid is talking to ACC programs. He discovered he was usually wasting his time.

RJM posted:

Do high academic recruits pass on Ivies? There is a particular Ivy coach who stops recruiting a player if he finds out the kid is talking to ACC programs. He discovered he was usually wasting his time.

This also brings up another question I've often pondered.........so much discussion on this board as far as recruitment goes is for players to target realistic schools for both level of play (D1, 2, 3, NAIA, JUCO) and a good match for their academic record.  Perhaps all too often a coach "stops recruiting a player" because player's academic record or skillset on the diamond in BENEATH the level required at his program and the program is a "reach" for the kid.

Conversely, my question is, how often do coaches see a player as "overqualified" for their program and also stop recruiting him, or perhaps not attempt at all, because they assume player is basically too "good" for their program, either skillset wise or even academic makeup wise?  This basically sounds like what RJM is talking about?  Sounds like a kid whose baseball skillset is ACC ready and most likely will pass on the IVY?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Great question, but the responses are going to be centered on what does your son want.  I can only speak to my son's experience, as the Ivy schedule was EXACTLY  what he was looking for.   It took us a while to get there...to really understand all the options.  But once we got there it was a no doubter.  

We actually had a former D1 mid-major coach (who was offering my son) ask about other schools he was seriously  interested in.  My son mentioned a couple Ivys and the coach went on a negative tirade about the Ivys...."only playing weekend games, not travelling as much, playing a short season, and cold weather".  My wife, son and I were all thinking the same thing after he was done talking....that sounds FANTASTIC!   Here's the bottom line deal, my son was a very good high school player and college player.  He had enough self awareness to know he wasn't going to play in the MLB, and that engineering was his future.  The Ivy school he selected gave him the opportunity to study what he loved and play a sport he loved for 4 years.  It was perfect for him given his situation, and his major.  I've had many conversations with many people on this topic over the years, and many feel the same way I do.  The challenge is identifying the possibilities, understanding what you want, and getting into some of these schools.  My son would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

As for your follow up question, I think that would be a foolish policy if I'm a coach.  Your job is to bring in the best possible players every year...essentially replace the ones you recruited a year or two years ago.  There are all kinds of reasons people pick their college....not everyone has the same thought process.  If I thought a recruit was a good addition to my team, I'd be going after him.  The player is the one who has to make that call.  The coaches job is to give him that option.  In some cases, I think it is futile or there is a history of recruits passing over a certain level to get a perceived better opportunity.  Goosegg used Stanford as an example.....and I agree.  If Stanford is calling, I'm most likely taking that opportunity over anything else.  But that is the way I think....maybe not others who have a desire to stay in-state or close to home. 

To tie this all together, I think there are a handful of players every year who are offered the opportunity to play top D1, mid-major D1, D1 Ivy and D1 Patriot baseball.   They've got to figure out what is best for them.  Congrats if your son is one of them and I wish him well on his decision.  He's earned that opportunity to choose.  In some cases it isn't an easy decision, but in our case it was easy.

I'll also add our personal experience.  My son had multiple ACC offers and is at an Ivy.  He was actively recruited by a couple Ivy schools and it was no secret that he had ACC offers, it was discussed openly.  I'd suggest that if a coach quits on a kid because he thinks he's ACC (or similar) talent, then he's likely coaching a team that is traditionally not competitive in Ivy play.  We did not view the slightly shorter season with fewer games as a negative at all.  To the contrary, as a pitcher, it looked like less opportunity for a coach who is paid to win to overuse my son's arm. 

In regards to season duration - it is shorter in number of days, but does not lack intensity.  Essentially every week is doubleheader Saturday, doubleheader Sunday and a mid week game on Tuesday or Wednesday.  5 games a week plus typical practice and lifting commitments.  Monday is usually an off day.  ACC travel is pretty high with outliers like ND and BC, maybe Pitt and Florida State but the grouping of Clemson, Wake, Duke, UNC, V Tech, UVA is pretty darn close together.  There is also plenty of D1 non conference schools in that general area so while there is certainly more travel in an ACC type league vs. the Ivy, it may be a bit overstated.  I don't view additional time away from school riding a bus or sitting in an airport while trying to maintain your grades as necessarily a plus.

As far as summer ball, mine is playing in a summer collegiate league like many others.  I may be mistaken but I believe the schedule is around 56 games.  His school also had him lined up with a summer college league for the summer after high school preceding freshman year, so that did not seem to be an impediment. 

No, the stadiums and facilities aren't as nice as most in the ACC and the like.  The general level of resources for the club is lower.  Bottom line - as goosegg and others have alluded to - if he's good enough to turn pro, he'll get that chance.  Several do from the Ivy every year including two out of his school last year.  If not, he has a degree from a top 10 in the nation university.  We thought that was a far better deal.

fenwaysouth posted:

As for your follow up question, I think that would be a foolish policy if I'm a coach.  Your job is to bring in the best possible players every year...essentially replace the ones you recruited a year or two years ago.  There are all kinds of reasons people pick their college....not everyone has the same thought process.  If I thought a recruit was a good addition to my team, I'd be going after him.  The player is the one who has to make that call.  The coaches job is to give him that option.  In some cases, I think it is futile or there is a history of recruits passing over a certain level to get a perceived better opportunity.  Goosegg used Stanford as an example.....and I agree.  If Stanford is calling, I'm most likely taking that opportunity over anything else.  But that is the way I think....maybe not others who have a desire to stay in-state or close to home. 

 

I agree with the point on a coach basically quitting on a kid.  I find that hard to believe in all honesty.  Obviously I can see not investing a whole lot of time in trying to recruit a 1-10 Rounder at an IVY but you shouldn't be in IVY recruiting if you don't like the challenge of going for a kid who is "talking with ACC programs." 

I understand they have to be economical with what little time they have to recruit, but I would think there would be a "Let's Give It a Shot" List somewhere on the recruiting board?  No?

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

Conversely, my question is, how often do coaches see a player as "overqualified" for their program and also stop recruiting him, or perhaps not attempt at all, because they assume player is basically too "good" for their program, either skillset wise or even academic makeup wise?  This basically sounds like what RJM is talking about?  Sounds like a kid whose baseball skillset is ACC ready and most likely will pass on the IVY?

 

With our older son, there were programs that stopped recruiting our son when they learned Stanford was recruiting him.  One was a power ACC program.  I know this from a direct conversation with their head coach the next summer when I ran into him at East Cobb.  I was pretty surprised to hear this as they were very much in the mix at the time they stopped.  Maybe it was an excuse?  Don't know.

RJM posted:

Do high academic recruits pass on Ivies? There is a particular Ivy coach who stops recruiting a player if he finds out the kid is talking to ACC programs. He discovered he was usually wasting his time.

RJM, I've wondered about that....  Then what do you think players should or should not put as their college interests on their PG profile??

I'm sensing my 2018 should delete all??  He has Stanford, Duke, ND, and Ivy's listed...

My advice is to not overthink this. In the recruiting process you are going to hear all kinds of "he said she said" from parents, players and coaches, etal. Your son should put down on forms where he truly has interest in capabilities. Don't put a top ACC, PAC12, or SEC school if he has no chance of playing there. Be realistic and honest and it will all work out. Like Fenway my son recognized he was not going to have a realistic chance of playing in the MLB (like pretty much 90% of the kids here) so he ended up picking a school with the right balance. If your worried about the shorter IVY season for whatever reason then it probably is not a right fit.

Frankly internships are the key to getting a job out of college and a lot of IVY and other high academic players may play a year or two of summer ball but once they get into their college career they end up picking internships over summer ball.  There are plenty of options to do both also.  

so Ivy leaguers stop recruiting guys with ACC interest,  should  SEC or Big 12 coaches then just give up on top 30-40 overall prospects since they may just end up MLB?

is it common for programs to line up summer league team for summer before incoming freshman year?

I love this thread/topic. #1AC, I am not surprised that it was you who started it, and thanks...it is something I think about often.  I am with Fenway.  This is a time to let boys become men and think about THEIR priorities.  It is not about us dads.  My son made a very early decision to go Ivy and has been "floating on air" ever since.  Has not had 2nd thoughts for a minute (despite his future school's current dismal W-L record and knowing he will be playing in sometimes freezing cold temps).  If your experience is like mine, the path will be clear (of course, after some research, visits, discussions and debates).  Quick story that put all of this to bed for us:

After my son had made his decision, his velo saw a nice little jump and he started to touch 90 on a fairly regular basis.  Word came back through some folks in his "training/coaching circles" that a big time ACC program had "taken notice"...leave it at that.  We had a discussion about it; I was excited (dad ego stuff, you know), but he wanted no part of it.  The discussion was short.  He said, "Dad, what do YOU want me to do?".  I shook his hand and said "It does not matter one bit what I want you to do, and it is clear what you want."  We both smiled and I walked out of the room.  End of discussion.

Btw...sorry to avoid your actual question.  Clearly, there are "cons" (level of competition, smaller crowds/scouts, less than ideal playing conditions, losing to bigger D1/scholarship programs consistently due to lack of depth of roster, academic demands/stresses, etc.).  But, I think the "market" for talent is such nowadays that, especially for pitchers (as has been noted), if the talent is there, you will get your shot.  Also, one pro that I have thought about for Ps is that he would enter summer ball with fewer innings and not have to be held back.  I believe most of the Ivy programs are respected enough that the coaches can get their top players into good summer leagues where they will be seen by scouts.  (Yale had a frosh RHP spend the latter part of the summer last year in the Cape).

I'd suggest that if a coach quits on a kid because he thinks he's ACC (or similar) talent, then he's likely coaching a team that is traditionally not competitive in Ivy play.

He's a former MLBer. He played in the ACC. He's won 1/3 of the Ivy titles during his tenure. 

I think I know who you are talking about. The phrase "past performance does not guarantee future returns" comes to mind. That attitude has killed that program for the past four years - that program hasn't been Ivy League competitive for years.

If a coach can't figure out which points to raise with a family in recruiting to sway a kid from the ACC to, let's say, Harvard, he should find another profession. This is particularly true because ACC recruiting is over before Ivy recruiting can really get going (ACC classes are pretty much filled [there's always room at the Inn for special players who blossom late] even before a kid can objectively determine whether he has the grades, curriculum, and scores to gain Ivy admission). So the coach should be able to identify his targets - kids who can pass the admissions bar, who have not committed before end of rising senior summer, with baseball skills - with clarity without worrying about his kid getting pushed hard by the ACC or other major confrences.

Is it improper to say which program?  Or, give a clue, or PM me.

Thanks

I really don't know and did not make the post, but I can take a stab and have a "sneakin' idea" it may be a school in NJ???? 

Ahh...

Goosegg posted:

I think I know who you are talking about. The phrase "past performance does not guarantee future returns" comes to mind. That attitude has killed that program for the past four years - that program hasn't been Ivy League competitive for years.

If a coach can't figure out which points to raise with a family in recruiting to sway a kid from the ACC to, let's say, Harvard, he should find another profession.

It's hard to judge. The overall record is of success. The past three or four years isn't. But how much of recent failure is passing on ACC prospects? How much of past success was not wasting time on ACC prospects. The bottom line is the past few years he's not getting the recruits he needs to win. Whether or not he lost out on potential ACC players we don't know.

I don't know how you can assert he isn't getting the recruits he needs? How do you know it's not the lack of development once the players get there? How do you know it's not the game strategies employed which cause that team's record to be so bad the last few years?

The overwhelming number of his recruits were indeed wooed by big time programs; those kids chose to dodge the early commit pressure and wait to see what may develop.

Remember, each of these schools generally bring in only 6-8 recruits a year; and, like most D1 programs, most articulate a desire to play proball (and most realize pretty quickly that proball is just that - a dream).  Baseball players who matriculate to an Ivy don't transfer, they graduate in four years, with great FA available to many, with either summer ball or internships at their fingertips, and graduate school level salaries waiting for Ivy undergraduate degrees.

Yes, a family can lose the forest for the trees during the recruiting process and get blinded by baseball opportunities. My point here is a kid gives up no baseball opportunities (including a low success probability to reach MLB) to attend an Ivy (his development may be stunted by poor coaching; but that is not restricted to the Ivies); if the kid has pro potential and develops that potential, there is no Ivy downside.

I don't believe a previously successful coach forgets how to develop players and coach unless he gets old and falls behind the times. So it's probably the recruits. 

I agree if a kid is a prospect it doesn't matter he's at an Ivy. He will have exposure in non conference games against major D1s. He will have an opportunity to play in talent appropriate collegiate summer leagues. If a pitcher is consistantly 90+ with a quality second pitch it can be against grandmothers.

i also know there are typically players at this school who could have played in the ACC. But if this coach finds them hedging rather than committing to him he walks.

This is the reputation. My son played high school and travel ball within an hour of the school. He knows kids who play(ed) there. He knows others who were recruited and passed. I also heard it from a player's parent who is a career baseball man.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

Wondering if anyone out there can comment on the pros and cons of the shorter baseball season of the Ivy League.  I pulled up several Ivy schedules and noticed their seasons span all of 2-months.  Yale's this year is March 4 to April 30.  Whereas your average ACC season begins Feb. 19 to May 21 or so. 

Obviously weather, funding, and an emphasis on academics, are what's behind the shorter season but just wondering if high academic recruits ever pass on Ivies due to a perception that they won't play enough ball and may not develop into the player they may become at a school with a longer season?  Even if only one extra month per year?  Over the course of a 4-year career that's 12-months (total) of regular season baseball at an ACC vs only 8-months (total) of regular season play at an Ivy. 

The Ivy degree is a nice tradeoff but even so, is the 1/3 shorter season a detractor for recruits?  If anyone has any experience or thoughts, I'd be curious to hear.

This is a great topic. I was just talking to my young son who has a lot of potential in baseball and also is scoring off the chart on state tests  and getting perfect grades (teachers are saying he's gifted) about setting goals.  

Let's say he trends in the right direct on both.  Let's say he's a kid who could independently qualify for an Ivy league school without a lot of scholarship money being thrown his way, but also happened to be someone who was being recruited by other D-1s that are top academic schools in their own right...Texas, NC, Vandy, Cal, Emory, Duke etc.   What kind of financial package is he going to get?    

I have relative who signed with a school mentioned below that is just as good or better than an Ivy on the West Coast,  but I'm not sure what kind of assistance he got (would love to ask but that wouldn't be right).  I got the sense that the combination of baseball and grades got him in the door, and they are paying for most of his education out of pocket.  I've never seen them use the word scholarship just "signed with".   I hope to have these problems in a few years but want to plan for it financially.   Thanks

Coaches get old; coaches burn out; coaches do lose focus. Old administrations get complacent and are replaced by new blood.

Anyone watching this program play quickly realizes that something is different when comparing the game strategies with other college teams. (I am not saying that this coach isn't a great person and spectacular mentor of his players; indeed, he is a man I would want my son to learn from. I am only speaking to baseball here.)

As for hedging and walking when faced with a recruit trying to decide, I could see that scenario arise -but mostly in the truncated period within which the Ivy's' get their commitments. Time is too short to allow an offer to hang too long.

And again, if a coach can figure out a way to sell snow to Eskimos (like most of the RC's we ran into during the process), he could certainly figure out a way to highlight a few advantages of the Ivy League.

GoBlue. Just because a school is a top academic school, that doesn't mean that the athletes are taking majors that are representative of the general student population.

Most coaches play fast and lose with those details. So, in the recruiting process, ask for those details. Ask whether the info you're getting is only for juniors and seniors (freshman and sophomore majors are just wishes and hopes, so don't use those years).  Ask how many kids graduated in four years (or for those who signed after being drafted junior year, how many had three full years of credits).  Being an athlete at the D1 level is hard; keeping on track to graduate in four years is harder; keeping on track to graduate in a hard major even harder (I should also note that the Ivys have made it very very difficult to use AP credits). Ask how many kids not only graduated in four years, but which grad schools they attended, which jobs they got, which fields, etc.?

The hardest part of developing this info, is many many coaches (who do this for their living, while you go through it once) know how to appear to directly answer your question without really answering your question. (E.g., if you ask, "how many players graduate?" The answer will not be the four year graduation rate - it will be the overall graduation rate. Or, the answer will speak to the APR.)  The antidote is to do as much research as possible before embarking on the process and never be satisfied with an answer you don't understand.

EDIT: there are no scholarships in the Ivy League. All aid is financial aid and available to every student on an equal basis.

RJM posted:

I'd suggest that if a coach quits on a kid because he thinks he's ACC (or similar) talent, then he's likely coaching a team that is traditionally not competitive in Ivy play.

He's a former MLBer. He played in the ACC. He's won 1/3 of the Ivy titles during his tenure. 

I guess we define program competitiveness differently.  He's won the Ivy once since 2006.  In my view, where he played or the fact that I'm sure he's a wonderful guy at one of the most prestigious universities on the planet doesn't change that.

For the record, I have no issue with this coach or this university.  That said, I stand by my original comment in the full context I wrote it, which is to say I had no idea who the coach or the school was at the time, but was rather commenting on what I viewed as a flawed approach to recruiting in the Ivy League.

I don't have any feelings either way on the coach, his track record or his recruiting tactics. I'm only passing information I received both first and second hand. 

When my son was in high school I attended college games from top D3s to D1s I felt he might project. I talked with a career baseball man while watching this team play at Harvard. His son played at the school.