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Bogeyorpar,

You bring up a great point, and this goes back to knowing what you want to do after graduation.  Knowing the reputation of the college within the University and how it ranks nationally is extremely important.  In your example of UPenn and TexasA&M there are various degrees within engineering (specialties) that UPenn and Texas A&M are extremely competent.   Penn is renowned for their Computer Engineering program with a huge graduate pipeline to the Tech industry and tech startups.  For some folks, I think it is also very important to consider what they want to minor in as well as the depth and breadth of a specific engineering program.  While I agree with some of your points, I think folks have to look at the bigger picture (initial job opportunity and future job opportunity) as well as the specific major specialty.  Some schools are extremely competent in one, two or multiple areas.  Choice within an engineering disciple;ine may be part of the recruit/student's decision criteria.  I know it was with my son.

Also, with your financial analsysis you are comparing need based financial aid (Ivys) with other forms of financial aid which is not entirely accurate.  Many people do not pay full tuition to ivy schools, so it is going to depend on a  specific household income.  Ivy financial aid can be  extremely generous.

Last edited by fenwaysouth

Been reading this thread daily.  Fenway's final point is important.  I have a former student who is now in her 2nd year at an Ivy.  She comes from a household of two teachers.  My understanding, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, is she and her family are paying $6,000 for her to attend her Ivy.  Total.  Bright young lady, some of it may come from academic scholarship but I am sure a good bit from need based financial aid.  

Hey, you never know?

Financing the college education is another big piece to the puzzle.

I hear a lot of chatter around about families stuck in a dead zone for financial aid. The family income comes out just enough in the formulas eye not to provide any (or very minimal) aid, but the reality is quite different...

Do Ivy's really offer academic or merit scholarship? If so, the competition must be really fierce and next to impossible for an athlete who has had to dedicate so many hours outside of the classroom on their sport instead of creating a new start up or the next Nobel prize work.

There are no merit or athletic scholarships given by the Ivy schools, all financial aid is need based. Hands down, that FA is the best in the country (excepting a handful of schools which are free - none of which I believe play baseball).  (My D was accepted to Vandy and Duke with zero aid and received about half tuition aid from her Ivy.)

I think speculating the final major of a student and narrowing down the schools based on that fact could be risky. I believe well over half of incoming freshman graduate in a major different from the original presumptive major. Add the time commitment which baseball brings to the table, and even a higher percentage will gravitate towards majors which allow the player to play without being buried by the demands of a math or lab based major.

While anecdotal evidence really isn't very helpful, I have two kids attending the same school. Both athletes (but D in a sport which is NCAA level at half her conference and club level at the remaining schools); D matriculated as a presumptive Chem Eng. major. She will graduate with that degree - but along the way she picked up a finance minor.  She's headed into the investment banking world - she'll use the Chem Eng. knowledge in finance rather then in the field or lab. The point is, there are whole new worlds and opportunities which will open for all kids in college so pick a place where those potential options are not foreclosed.  (And there are certain fields of engineering which are boom/bust areas. A student majoring in petroleum engineering faces a different job market today then five years ago - so having options allows the student to adjust to new conditions.)

 

Here's another study from a few years ago: http://economix.blogs.nytimes....best-paid-graduates/

Key: "Ivy League Schools are the best bet for mid-career pay, with five out of the top 10"

And Goosegg is correct, no merit or athletic scholarships. Financial Aid only. However, it can be quite generous, and particularly when it comes to sports like baseball, it can be a much better deal than a partial scholarship at another school. Using Yale as an example, families with total gross income of less than $65,000 pay nothing; and the student has no loans -- it is all grants that don't have to be paid back.

Just to clarify, yes Ivy's do offer merit (academic) scholarships.  My son's girlfriend received a 4-year Presidential scholarship to an ivy.  Very bright girl and she was in demand among a few top schools.  Chemical engineer, soccer player and her Mother is an educator.  They are out there, but I wouldn't count on getting one.   What I don't know is if each school offers it and how many they offer.  I'm guessing it is a very small number based upon the talent coming through the door.

Last edited by fenwaysouth

And to bring it all full circle back to the baseball athlete, always bear in mind that the athletic scholarship, at the "high academic power 5" that was the original subject of the thread, is renewed annually by the coach.  He may get 50% first year, 30% second year, 60% third, etc.  Or he may get nothing at all.  Or he may get his deal for the following year, then get approached later and be told it is changing so the coach can chase the hottest new recruit freshman that just de-committed from his prior school.  How about if a new coach gets hired that the kid has no relationship with and he wants to bring in his own players.  It's all in play.  In the Ivy, your deal is your deal - assuming family finances remain about the same.  Once you're in, even if you give up the sport, get hurt, whatever, you have your deal and it's not changing.

The other piece on the finances is let's assume your kid is a highly sought after, stud type power 5 guy.  50% athletic is usually considered a pretty good deal.  If the school is private, you're still facing a bill of $30-$35K.  Depending on family finances, the kid (and family) still may be far better off with regular Ivy financial aid.

fenwaysouth posted:

Just to clarify, yes Ivy's do offer merit (academic) scholarships.  My son's girlfriend received a 4-year Presidential scholarship to an ivy.  Very bright girl and she was in demand among a few top schools.  Chemical engineer, soccer player and her Mother is an educator.  They are out there, but I wouldn't count on getting one.   What I don't know is if each school offers it and how many they offer.  I'm guessing it is a very small number based upon the talent coming through the door.

Agree with Fenway, but the student has to be a true star to get merit aid directly from an Ivy. 

There are other avenues to getting a merit scholarship.  http://www.stampsfoundation.org/ 

Roe Stamps has a very generous program that partners with many schools.  In my limited experience, a school decided that wanted my daughter (non-athlete) and then partnered with the Stamps Foundation to offer a full scholarship.  There are numerous other programs like this that are independent of the school, but are in fact very tightly connected.  For instance, Jefferson at UVA and Belk at Davidson College which was my daughter's choice. 

Goosegg posted:

Do you give scholarships for academic merit, special talents or athletic ability?

No. All financial aid awards are based solely on need. Learn more about how aid is assigned in theUndergraduate Financial Aid Information and Application Instructions.  

This is from the Princeton website. 

one thing I have learned in life is that it is very easy to post a policy solely based on "need". When it becomes time that something is deemed important or wanted the definition of "need" or virtually any other term can stretched, twisted and sort of redefined...I know a kid very well, he is at one of the highly regarded schools mentioned in this thread, he was found late in the process. He is on a 50% academic scholarship...at school his father told me there is no doubt he doesn't get accepted at without baseball. He was low on GPA, test scores and course levels. he was good student, not great and solid test scores not good but this is a tough school to get into. he also has some athletic gifts that apparently were much appreciated by the coaches...so when things like "need" "academics" and "lack of funding" are being discussed please remember that we are not all using the same definition of the words and they can be altered and or modified if the proper people support it.

Goosegg posted:

Do you give scholarships for academic merit, special talents or athletic ability?

No. All financial aid awards are based solely on need. Learn more about how aid is assigned in theUndergraduate Financial Aid Information and Application Instructions.  

This is from the Princeton website. 

Not sure about the other Ivys, but a financial aid grant at Dartmouth was called a "Dartmouth Scholarship." That's what it said on the student bill; that was the name used by the school. It really wasn't a  merit scholarship -- it was a grant made to those who needed financial aid, and based on the amount of need. Technically, the student and his or her family could say the student got a "scholarship" -- after all, that was the actual term used by the school -- but it really was financial aid.

Goosegg posted:

If he is getting academic money which is not given to every other student with the same stats, that school is in deep trouble.

maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

Did we all forget the North Carolina phantom class for athletes? Remember the one where it was only available to atheletes of various sports?

Do you really believe the 35 kids at Vandy, Duke (insert whatever other name that fits) and Stanford are paying their own way? I mean honestly if you really think about it who gets an athletic scholarship, need based grant, academic scholarship, one of countless funded scholarships...there is a tremendous amount of leeway inside the rules to make things work if the school has access to capital, regardless of what type.

There is no doubt in my mind this is happening every day at every school, with a few possible exceptions but they would be the outlier not the norm.

"maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

Did we all forget the North Carolina phantom class for athletes? Remember the one where it was only available to atheletes of various sports?"

Quite a leap from citing the UNC example of phantom classes and stretching that to include the vast majority of schools are giving away impermissible scholarships.  Do you have any evidence, apart from having "no doubt in your mind" that the vast majority of schools are giving away impermissible scholarships?  I understand your feelings (well placed in that it seems that cheating has no dire consequences), but where is actual evidence?

As for the thought that 35 players at Vandy and Duke are paying their own way, no, I don't think you can stretch my observation to fit that. Those players (collectively) get 11.7 full COA scholarships, plus whatever all other students are offered as inducements which essentially cut the sticker price.  At the 65k local D1 power, I know many kids (recruited walk-ons) who (over the last decade) received minor awards (because the school gives out lots of 1 - 5k scholarships) whose parents were hoping (wishing) that some athletic scholarship would be earned in subsequent years.  Most transferred as wishes crashed into the reality of college baseball economics.

If a family has means, has poured money into building skills for 10 years, has a player who a coach has convinced is wanted (but for zero money), who has hopes that the player will succeed, then, yes, they will pay the price (the same as a non-athlete's family will sacrifice to pay the tuition for that "dream" school).  Still more families will initially look at the reduction in sticker price and feel elated; reality sets in when even with the reduction, the family still owes 30k per year (again, the same as a non-athlete's family).  

Some (southern) schools have state programs (open to all state residents) (e.g., HOPE) which essentially bring down the sticker price - but the awards are without regard to athletic skills.  These types of programs put those schools at an economic advantage when compared to schools in states without such generous programs.

Coaches are masters at manipulating economics; each has his magic dust - some offer small up front minimum scholarships with talk of larger grants In future years (left unsaid is what benchmarks must be met to earn the increase); others will cut seniors to zero (can't transfer, wasn't drafted as a junior, no downside); others use the revolving door (don't produce, leave).  Whatever method each coach uses, most of the time the field tilts towards the coach and away from the player and family.  

Each type of FA has its own risks: athletic scholarships (perform on the field or it's gone), academic scholarships (perform in the classroom while having a full time job or it's gone), or need-based (family has a good financial year and it's gone).

old_school posted:
Goosegg posted:

If he is getting academic money which is not given to every other student with the same stats, that school is in deep trouble.

maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

 

I have to admit that I was shocked by the UNC scandals, so I will no longer be surprised by anything, but I still don't believe that "many many schools" are skirting the rules with scholarships and grants for athletes. Remember that football and basketball get plenty of 100% athletic scholarships, so there's no need to break the rules in those sports. I doubt that other sports like baseball are important enough to schools to risk NCAA violations, in most cases. Also, look at the rosters on those teams you mentioned (and the Ivys). At least half of the kids are usually coming from private high schools and most of their families are probably just thrilled that they were admitted; they aren't negotiating the fees.

@Goosegg posted:

I am biased, so understand that as you read on.

My son's Ivy had three MLB pitchers and one hitter this year.   My son was drafted out of HS and again as a budget single digit round senior. He is out of baseball now and really enjoying his real world career (his first 2 week paycheck was more then he made in any MILB season - which btw, is what you earn for the year).

There are, IMO, 9 d1 schools where the degree the baseball player brings to the job market is viewed the same way as every other typical student from that same school. Those schools are Stanford and the 8 Ivies.  That doesn't mean that you cannot do it at other schools, but think of your son as in the middle of the pack, not an outlier and then look where the middle of the pack ends up.  I know athletes and non-athletes who graduated from Northwestern, UCLA, USC, Vandy); the job market (especially in anything connected to banking , financing) is easier for the 9 schools.

The middle of the pack at those 9 schools (I am speaking of d1 only) has a dream job waiting for them whenever they decide to enter the workforce. and also realize that even at those schools most of the players graduated with a different major then they matriculated.  For some reason most players did change from engineering to economics - which makes Fenways' son so remarkable - but an economics degree from say Yale has big big value in getting the first real world job (beyond that it's up to them)

I have the view that a pro prospect who doesn't blossom as a freshman (the least important year ironically) stands a better chance at an Ivy.  Why? Rosters are smaller, so guys get way more chances. Winning isn't a true pressure (although a coach must be Ivy competitive) on the coach. Fewer guys go to summer leagues because most of your teammates  are working internships on wallstreet or wherever; but all guys who are legit prospects play where they want (i.e., cape, Northwoods,etc).  It's easier to be an all-round developing student/athlete at an Ivy.

Conversely, the pressure on a scholarship guy to perform as a freshman is way more intense outside the Ivy; and (again, IMO) there is a lot going on in the lives of these young men.  I'd like to give their athletic talent time to delelop but let's just admit, they are learning to drink, fend off drugs, meeting new people, getting buried in the classroom, working a full time job etc. In the big time baseball conferences, for the coaches it's all about winning.  A tough combination for a kid growing into adulthood.

Not only is getting drafted hard enough, succeeding is even harder. I believe hedging the bet of a17-year old is warranted. In another thread, the transfer rate of baseball players was fleshed out; some where like 1/3. I followed my son's roster for 7 years; his team lost two seniors (who graduated on time) and one freshman (mh issues).  Moreover, everyone graduated on time except those who were drafted as juniors - both graduated in 6 years.

Roughly 56 players are recruited each year;  if you draw the lucky straw there is no need to trade it for what's behind door number 2 (except Stanford).

Older thread, but very relevant to my family right now.
I have sort of the same thoughts as this post.

My only counters would be the difference in fun level in playing in say the acc and getting to play all those great teams in great ballparks, in front of large crowds, as compared with only staying in the northeast and pretty much the opposite as far as ballparks and crowds

also the difference in cost

@9and7dad posted:

My direct and recent Ivy recruiting experience was exactly the opposite.  All the Ivy coaches recruiting my son knew very well he was being recruited by high level conference coaches. Didn't slow them down one bit, rather they made their case for the Ivy League advantages.  They continued to recruit him over an extended period of time on that basis and continued to attend games to see him play.

I second this. This was our experience too. In 2023.

Last edited by SpeedDemon
@fenwaysouth posted:

My opinion has mostly been formed by my son and others like him (Ivys) as well as his travel team friends who went on to play at Power 5 conference schools.  For me, It isn't so much about the school as it is about the recruit/student knowing or having an idea about what he wants to do after graduation.  Overwhelmingly, my son's  Power 5 friends wanted to be professional baseball players after their college junior year and they were given that 3 year opportunity in college.  Some succeeded and most failed.    As for my son and others like him, I think they had more academic goals in mind but were also slightly hedging on a possible career in professional baseball if the opportunity presented itself.  It never presented itself for my son as he was injured his junior year and he was a long shot among long shots to get drafted even after earning first team all-conference the prior year.  For those few like him, the opportunity to get drafted  out of the ivy presents itself (and is made financially worthwhile) to only a couple players a year.  On the other side of the ledger is the Ivy opportunity to have a good paying job with an established global corporation prior to graduation.   At the end of the day no matter which path is selected baseball remains a business, and a very challenging one on the labor side of the balance sheet.

To parlay off my first point, it is also extremely important to know what majors are strongly encouraged or "silently" discouraged for any recruited athlete.  Your major will have a large impact on how you are viewed by the coaching staff at just about any school not to mention how many hours you will need to invest in studying.  There is more "major leniency" with Ivys as they are more accommodating with a players study & lab schedule.

Also, I think there is one school that is the apex of both Power Conference baseball and high academics.  That is Stanford.  If there is no question someone has extraordinary baseball skills, and off the charts intelligence and academics then you need to introduce yourself to Stanford.

As always, JMO and experiences.

Agree, with one caveat.

A few P4 HA schools (Cal for instance) pride themselves on accommodating any major for their athletes.

In 2023.

Last edited by SpeedDemon

Older thread, but very relevant to my family right now.
I have sort of the same thoughts as this post.

My only counters would be the difference in fun level in playing in say the acc and getting to play all those great teams in great ballparks, in front of large crowds, as compared with only staying in the northeast and pretty much the opposite as far as ballparks and crowds

also the difference in cost

Hi Donnie

The college baseball world (now the NIL world) has changed since I made that post.

Let me respond as best I can these many years later.

In this new NIL world, there is no time to develop a player in the ACC and SEC. If a freshman doesn't deliver, he's gone. (LSU recruited a HS LHP last year, was supposed to be a lock first round pick - didn't pan out; gone. The story is the same everywhere else.) I think of D1s now as essentially minor league independent clubs offering one year contracts - not a great scenario to the overwhelming number of freshman players.

Yes, to the 16 players (8 pitchers, 8 position players) getting playing time, those stadiums and those fans are unreal. (My son's first win came at LSU - and what a crowd it was!) But it takes a special player to be satisfied with a bench role.

As for cost, I no longer have a finger on the pulse of the Ivy league FA, but it was extremely generous 10 years ago and, I believe, has gotten even better. I'm sure some more recent info is held by posters here.

My son and his teammates are in their early 30s. Two are still playing  - one in Japan (he was in the MLB earlier this year). My son has a son, a house, a great job - he's very comfortable financially; his teammates are similarly situated. For them, baseball has been very, very good.

He's never regretted getting a degree in Economics from his school and passing on a whole lot of alternate D1 offers. Employers loved the combo of degree, school, athletics.

Some may contend that an Ivy degree doesn't insure success  - and they're right. But, just like a first rounder getting every benefit of the baseball doubt as he's developing professionally, the same is true of Ivy grads in the work place. And, if a kid wants finance, banking, venture capital, consulting and the like, the path is much easier.

It's the 40 years after college that's way more important than the next 4.

(I hope posters here would chime in on their players' experiences - especially academically - in the NIL world.)

Thanks for the info!

The other issue we’re having with the ivies right now is the process.

He has multiple full ride offers from acc/big 10 schools, and all the ivy schools are talking about how slow they take things.  Which is fine, but eventually those other offers are going to be gone the longer we wait.  Then what if something happens with the Ivy school 8 months from now or whenever they make their decision, and they no longer take my son.

If your son is a 2025, I think he needs to decide whether to commit to the Ivy process or accept the ACC/Big 10 schools now, not later.  You are right; they won't wait.  Did he visit all of these schools?  Where does he picture himself if baseball doesn't work out? Where was he most comfortable with the team and coach?

A couple of points to keep in mind:

  •   The ACC is a whole different level of baseball than the Ivy League -- mostly because all of the players on an ACC team are standouts. Your son may not play for a few years on these teams. However, if he wants a baseball career, the choice is clear.  If my son had received an ACC offer, he would have quickly accepted it (and he is in the minor leagues now). 
  • The level of play in the Big10 right now, IMO, varies quite a bit (think Northwestern vs. Michigan).  If you play for a team at the bottom of the conference, you will lose A LOT, over and over again, for years and years.
  • My son had a great experience in the Ivy League, and his friends there will be his friends for life, but the baseball there is only sometimes great, not consistently great. However, your son will play all the time because there are only 28 people on the team.  Everybody has to play just to get through the season.

Unlike @used2lurk, I think he has to decide soon, and yes, like everything else in baseball, once you do decide, the other possibilities go away fast.

@used2lurk posted:

If your son is good enough to be offered full rides from ACC/Big 10 schools and the Ivy decision is negative (which I do not believe will be the case unless he is a very fringe case academically) he will have plenty of places to play that are above average academically and solid baseball schools.

This!!!

Yes, the Ivy timeline is different - it unfolds later. Reason: it's all about HS academics and keeping a recruit's eye on the Ivys' priorities. I've seen many a player lower the academics bar to the lowest possible point once he received his offer - that's not possible in the Ivys.

You've probably read that not all Ivy recruits are equal academically. And, that's very, very true  - the better the player the less polished the academic resume needs to be. (I don't know if the Ivy Academic Index is still a thing, but it made very clear when Academic standards could he relaxed. IOW,  a player projected to be an All-American has a lesser HS academic hill to climb than a player expected to compete for a starting spot as a freshman.) Back in my son's day, the cutoff was 1200 SAT, a HS curriculum just below the hardest theoretically possible while earning overwhelmingly A's with a few lesser grades thrown in.

Here's the thing: the head coaches know the cutoffs, know the nuances of admissions, and self-select players to present to the admissions subcommittee which addresses athletes. If a coach says he can get you in, I personally would bet on it. Once that oral offer is extended, it's up to the player to keep his nose to the academic grindstone. (Very different from, for example, MIT a decade ago, where the coach had zero pull/input with admissions.) My son did a pop-in with an Ivy coach during sophomore spring break, handed the coach his transcript and was told "that's  a [school name] resume." That was enough for us to focus on the Ivys.

Mt son had offers and "call me if the Ivy deal falls through" all the way until matriculation  - and he didn't have nearly as much potential as your son apparently has. (In that era a LHP sitting 91 was in high demand. I think its the same now. I personally know a pitcher who was offered at the Big 10 while on his way to register for the local college.)

To us the bottom line still comes down to: and what after college? We know many guys who turned down baseball HAs to pursue baseball; one is even working his way up the managerial ladder after a very short MLB stint. None are failures once their playing days ended.

There is no right, simple, assured reward path; but, to us, the Ivy path had the most "give" when things go off the rails. (And, with my son it went off the baseball rails for three full years, before lightning stuck. In todays era, he would have been cut from three schools, accumulated minimal credits, struggled just to get that degree in who knows what, and probably quit playing, ending his playing days with no network, few permanent friends, and a helter-skelter social life.)

IOW, we hedged our bets, leaving the worse case scenario being an Ivy degree with a significant major. (We always plan for worse case results.)

There is no professional baseball downside to an Ivy. But, a Tommy White would have played before a few dozen fans, in quiet parks, riding busses and writing his papers and doing test prep in the hotel lobby in anonymity - before being drafted exactly where the real TW was drafted. And, all the while getting that Econ degree (econ is the Ivy go-to for athletes) and fending off JP Morgan, IBM, Gartner, Goldman Sachs, MLB biz side (my son interned for MLB his last summer) job offers.

PS. My son played Northwoods after freshman year and the Cape after sophomore year. Baseball is an individual sport masquerading as a team sport when a kid is being evaluated (scouted). While the quality of baseball is undeniably less in the Ivy league, it of no consequence in advancing to pro-ball. BUT, when the majority of your teammates DONT intend to continue to pro-ball, the motivation to up your game comes from within with the aid of your coaches (who want you to go pro andbwill devote themselves to those players), not so much from competing with your teammates.)

Last edited by Goosegg

(Preface: my info is a decade old)

Upon reflection, a key distinction between an Ivy and the ACC/SEC, is this: you are essentially forced to develop an identity which extends far beyond athletics.

So, at son's school it began before matriculation when the entire freshman class headed into the wilderness for a one week camping trip with a dozen soon-to-be classmates (and few had ever been camping before). During that week you get a peak at the non-athlete classmates. You could share a tent with a diplomat's son, talk music with an actual music prodigy, hike with people way out of your prior experiences. And, you now know a dozen new people - peers - who you'll see from time-to-time over the next years.

(One of the guys on that trip was a scion to a mid-eastern power family and son went to London on winter vacation with his family.)

Athletes that first year were assigned random roommates (like a prison my son initially said) - so most roomed with non-athletes and began networking. (Networking is the Ivy secret sauce.)

There were no special athlete classes (tho the "easier" electives were well-known in the athlete community), no special study tables, no designated tutors; every student was treated the same academically.

That first year was a time to try new things - for example, my son (just a regular athlete with no real passions beyond baseball) went to acapella shows, poetry readings (yes, really), plays, and all sorts of things which were out-of-his-box. Why? Because he was immersed with non-athletes and they have passions, too!

From second year on, you could chose roommates and he never roomed with an athlete.

Academics were hard, really hard. Kids used to cruising academically were in the same swimming pools as those who will eventually become judges, professors and other intellecual-type pursuits. The median physics mid-term grade was 19%! What a shock!

In second year, athletes tended to gravitate to specific "dining clubs" (I know them as frats/sororities); but those clubs weren't primarily athletes- so even more mixing with other real students.

In third year, they all wrote "Junior papers." Not really research papers, more like deep reviews of other peoples' research. This created the groundwork to the "senior thesis."

The senior thesis is truly an independent research thesis - it is a year long project under a professor, it's novel and substantial. At the conclusion, the thesis is bound and placed in the library with all the thesis' from those before; frequently during the interview process, the prospective employer will ask for it. (It's graduate level work.)

Then there were the senior "comprehensives" - an exam which captures your entire major and which must be passed to graduate.

(Now, this is just for my son's school, I am not familiar with other Ivys, but suspect it's similar.)

The entire time, you are surrounded by chronic over-achievers whose focus isn't baseball and offers those athletes perspectives they otherwise wouldn't seek out - a broadening of interests if you will.

(Mom and Dad are state flagship grads and our undergraduate experience was way different.)

IMO, when a player is surrounded by kids who are just as driven - but in non-athlete pursuits  - it provides a fertile ground to explore non-athlete pursuits.

An athlete Ivy experience is just way different from most other D1s.

Last edited by Goosegg
@Goosegg posted:

This!!!

Yes, the Ivy timeline is different - it unfolds later. Reason: it's all about HS academics and keeping a recruit's eye on the Ivys' priorities. I've seen many a player lower the academics bar to the lowest possible point once he received his offer - that's not possible in the Ivys.

You've probably read that not all Ivy recruits are equal academically. And, that's very, very true  - the better the player the less polished the academic resume needs to be. (I don't know if the Ivy Academic Index is still a thing, but it made very clear when Academic standards could he relaxed. IOW,  a player projected to be an All-American has a lesser HS academic hill to climb than a player expected to compete for a starting spot as a freshman.) Back in my son's day, the cutoff was 1200 SAT, a HS curriculum just below the hardest theoretically possible while earning overwhelmingly A's with a few lesser grades thrown in.

Here's the thing: the head coaches know the cutoffs, know the nuances of admissions, and self-select players to present to the admissions subcommittee which addresses athletes. If a coach says he can get you in, I personally would bet on it. Once that oral offer is extended, it's up to the player to keep his nose to the academic grindstone. (Very different from, for example, MIT a decade ago, where the coach had zero pull/input with admissions.) My son did a pop-in with an Ivy coach during sophomore spring break, handed the coach his transcript and was told "that's  a [school name] resume." That was enough for us to focus on the Ivys.

Mt son had offers and "call me if the Ivy deal falls through" all the way until matriculation  - and he didn't have nearly as much potential as your son apparently has. (In that era a LHP sitting 91 was in high demand. I think its the same now. I personally know a pitcher who was offered at the Big 10 while on his way to register for the local college.)

To us the bottom line still comes down to: and what after college? We know many guys who turned down baseball HAs to pursue baseball; one is even working his way up the managerial ladder after a very short MLB stint. None are failures once their playing days ended.

There is no right, simple, assured reward path; but, to us, the Ivy path had the most "give" when things go off the rails. (And, with my son it went off the baseball rails for three full years, before lightning stuck. In todays era, he would have been cut from three schools, accumulated minimal credits, struggled just to get that degree in who knows what, and probably quit playing, ending his playing days with no network, few permanent friends, and a helter-skelter social life.)

IOW, we hedged our bets, leaving the worse case scenario being an Ivy degree with a significant major. (We always plan for worse case results.)

There is no professional baseball downside to an Ivy. But, a Tommy White would have played before a few dozen fans, in quiet parks, riding busses and writing his papers and doing test prep in the hotel lobby in anonymity - before being drafted exactly where the real TW was drafted. And, all the while getting that Econ degree (econ is the Ivy go-to for athletes) and fending off JP Morgan, IBM, Gartner, Goldman Sachs, MLB biz side (my son interned for MLB his last summer) job offers.

PS. My son played Northwoods after freshman year and the Cape after sophomore year. Baseball is an individual sport masquerading as a team sport when a kid is being evaluated (scouted). While the quality of baseball is undeniably less in the Ivy league, it of no consequence in advancing to pro-ball. BUT, when the majority of your teammates DONT intend to continue to pro-ball, the motivation to up your game comes from within with the aid of your coaches (who want you to go pro andbwill devote themselves to those players), not so much from competing with your teammates.)

Great stuff!

Im on board with you 100%, convincing a 17 year old is a whole other story

He’s a 2026

but he has already been pressured by the schools who have offered.  With what I would call mild “threats” that they won’t wait forever for him to decide

Yes, the pressure applied is strategic  - the coach cares only about filling that class ASAP with players he wants; no matter how well he sells snow to eskimos, he doesn't have anything other than an offer invested in your son and will move on to others. (It's like going on Expedia and booking the "last room.")

No, they won't wait forever; they'll only wait until the next in line is ready for an offer. BTW, the Ivys are the same. When we went into an Ivy coach's office, strategically placed where we could see it was the whiteboard with potential recruits listed by position and order. Pressure, pressure, pressure is the undercurrent.

So much rides on the decision with so little certainty about the future. Life at its finest!

At the bottom line is it the uncertainty of Ivy admissions or is it the siren song of big U baseball which dominates your thoughts? Only at Stanford and Cal can you get both. (I'd also add UCSD - a new D1 entry - as a truly academic school for athletes.)

At the bottom line is it the uncertainty of Ivy admissions or is it the siren song of big U baseball which dominates your thoughts? Only at Stanford and Cal can you get both. (I'd also add UCSD - a new D1 entry - as a truly academic school for athletes.)

UCLA, Duke and Vanderbilt are all HA P4’s that have lower acceptance rates than Cal. They’re much better baseball programs.

Since the player in this conversation is a pitcher I have a story about pitching versus ACC teams versus Ivy teams. Pitching isn’t just about skill. It’s mental. It’s about confidence.

I was watching Boston College play Harvard in a mid week game. I was with the BC pitcher’s dad. The kid was blowing Harvard away. His father bemoaned he wished his son would pitch with the same mental attitude against ACC teams.

He said against Harvard he’s just attacking hitters. Against ACC teams he picks around the edges, falls behind in the count, then gets hammered.

Thanks for the info!

The other issue we’re having with the ivies right now is the process.

He has multiple full ride offers from acc/big 10 schools, and all the ivy schools are talking about how slow they take things.  Which is fine, but eventually those other offers are going to be gone the longer we wait.  Then what if something happens with the Ivy school 8 months from now or whenever they make their decision, and they no longer take my son.

ok, easy for me to say sitting behind my keyboard, but ignore the pressure. Here’s the way it works at most schools right now. If he commits now, and they find someone they like better next summer, your son will be cut loose. If he doesn’t commit now, and he doesn’t get an Ivy offer next spring, he’ll be the one knocking some other kid out of his ACC/B1G commitment. Then, unless he shines as a freshman at ACC/B1G, he’ll be in the portal after freshman year. Do I sound cynical? I am. I’ve seen it too many times.

Selling points for Ivy: Extraordinary career opportunities after playing baseball. Stable college experience for 3/4 years (ie no portal concerns). The Cape loves the top Ivy guys, and that’s how they get drafted.

What is your son’s position? Has he chosen a field of study?

I have been thru this same experience once pretty much down to a T. Feel free to shoot me a PM - depending on the ACC/Big 10 I'll have some current advice based on first hand experience. 

Hot take: I think it's 100% acceptable to decommit from a P4 to an Ivy and is one of the rare instances I would probably be on board with not honoring a commitment. If it's solely being done for the purposes of academics I would have a hard time faulting the kid. What am I going to do - get mad at a kid for putting his future career over 4 years of baseball - especially when he'd be paying out of pocket? I could understand a coach being upset or annoyed at first but to be mad at the core - that's not someone you want to play for anyway.

Some mid majors have offered him as a 2 way

The power conference schools, pitcher only

ivy’s only discussed pitching

finance

Thx.  Good info to share with the board.  I think you'll find most Ivy players had multiple offers from D1 mid-majors, and quite a few of them utilize two-way players.  This is nothing new.   So, if being a two-way player is important to your son he probably should bring that up with the Ivy coaches he's in conversations with.   

My son had a walk-on opportunity at an SEC school (with an academic scholarship) that he just kind of shrugged off as he knew (at best)  he was going to see the field in a year or two.  Playing time was at the top of his list in terms of baseball requirements for many reasons.   He weighed that very heavily in the level, and programs he considered.  He had a strong feeling that he could be a SP at Ivy his freshman year, and he was right.   Your son has choices as well.  If your son wants more playing time than sitting time then I think this is something he needs to consider.  Breaking into the rotation at an ACC (RPI 2) or Big 10 (RPI 4) school is very, very different than breaking into the rotation at an Ivy (RPI 25).  This is the lowest RPI I recall for the Ivy conference since I started tracking it many moons ago.   https://www.warrennolan.com/ba.../2024/rpi-conference

I'm not sure what ACC, B10, Ivy schools you're son is considering but I would check their current and historical rosters for Finance degrees.  Finance degrees seem to grow on trees in the Ivy.  My son played with many guys who are in that world of global finance with hedge funds, investment banking, and VCs.

As always, JMO.  Good luck!

Last edited by fenwaysouth

Simply an FYI off Bloomberg this morning:

Ivy League Degrees Aren't Worth What They Used to Be in College Sports -- WSJ
2024-08-14 09:30:00.141 GMT

By Jared Diamond and Robert O'Connell

(Wall Street Journal) -- Basketball players at the University of Pennsylvania
tend to spend their summers interning for top-tier finance firms, clerking for
judges or working in medical research labs. But after his freshman season at
Penn, Tyler Perkins chose somewhere very different.

He went to Villanova, sacrificing his chance to earn a coveted Ivy League
degree in favor of transferring to a different school to continue his
basketball career.

"To get an internship at Goldman Sachs and stuff like that, that's amazing,"
Perkins said. "But I'm a basketball player, so I just wanted to do what was
best for me."

Perkins isn't alone. The Ivy League has shed a load of talent over the past
few months, with at least five of the conference's best players leaving their
esteemed schools to take advantage of loosened transfer rules, better
facilities and potential endorsement deals at more decorated basketball
programs. None of them went to another Ivy.

Harvard's Malik Mack, one of the best freshmen in the nation, bolted to
Georgetown, while his teammate, Chisom Okpara, left for Stanford. All-Ivy
forward Danny Wolf ditched Yale with two years of eligibility remaining to
attend Michigan. Kalu Anya, who averaged nearly 10 points and seven rebounds a
game last season, gave up Brown to play for Saint Louis instead.

It's an exodus that was once unthinkable, given the prestige and an economic
opportunity that comes with a degree from an institution like Harvard or Yale.
Even in an era of college sports where star players can make huge sums of
money from donors at the wealthiest athletic programs, it seemed as if the Ivy
might be shielded somewhat from this rapidly evolving landscape.

But it has become clear that not even the Ivy League is immune to the market
forces reshaping the entire industry, forcing the conference to reckon with
its identity. Last spring, Ivy League Player of the Year Jordan Dingle
transferred from Penn to St. John's. Richard Kent, a Connecticut attorney who
works in the NIL space and broadcasts Yale basketball games, said Dingle's
departure was a resounding warning sign "that something may be up."

Now, the trend has become impossible to ignore.

"I don't think the Ivy League, the Ivy administrators and the coaches really
thought that they would get hammered like they did," Kent said.

The players who transferred generally say that money isn't why they opted to
change schools. Perkins, for instance, said it was about developing his
basketball talent at Villanova, which won the national championship in 2016
and 2018. Okpara likewise wanted to maximize his talents at a school "with an
Olympian in every sport."

But there's no doubt players are aware of the money that's out there. Okpara
said the possibilities of big paydays has become a topic of conversation among
Ivy athletes.

"I will say, once I entered the [transfer] portal and heard the opportunities
available for NIL," Okpara said, "I was like, 'Wow. This is a serious
matter.'"

The Ivy League, a collection of eight of the most renowned schools in the
country, has always been different than everyone else at the highest level of
college sports. Despite competing in Division I, Ivy League programs don't
award athletic scholarships, maintain rigorous academic requirements, and
prohibit graduate students from playing for their teams. Ivy football teams
also don't participate in the playoffs.

All of these policies are in service of the notion that Ivy League players are
students first and athletes second. The oft-repeated mantra among Ivy League
schools is that coming to play in the conference isn't a four-year decision,
but a 40-year decision.

That hasn't been the case for the league's premier basketball players of late,
a sign that the lure of an Ivy education often can't compete with the hundreds
of thousands of dollars that athletes can get elsewhere.

"It's our responsibility to figure out how to evolve so that we can stay
relevant and competitive but also evolve in a way that allows us to stay true
to our values," Princeton athletic director John Mack said.

Ivy League athletes are allowed to profit off their names, images and
likeness, just like their counterparts. In practice, however, it isn't that
simple. Ivy League schools have been squeamish about fully embracing the new
economic realities of college sports, where athletes have the freedom to
transfer schools to chase a bigger payday.

For instance, no Ivy League school has a collective, an organization of donors
that help connect athletes with endorsement deals. In May of last year, amid
rumors of a collective possibly forming at Harvard, the school sent an email
to supporters saying that "Harvard Athletics hasn't directly or indirectly
sanctioned or supported this group."

Tim Brosnan, the chairman of the Georgetown collective Hoyas Rising, said that
-- even at an institution renowned for its academics and campus life -- being
able to provide prospective athletes with NIL opportunities is paramount.

"If Georgetown did not have an NIL collective or an organized NIL vehicle,
they would be at an enormous and distinct disadvantage in recruiting the kinds
of athletes they want to recruit," Brosnan said. "At least for the men's
basketball program."

Still, even as athletic talent leaves the conference, administrators have held
on to the idea that there are reasons to stick with the Ivy League despite
sacrificing present-day income.

"The lifetime value of a Princeton education will trump any NIL deal that
student-athletes are going to be offered," Mack said. "We want our
student-athletes to have those opportunities, but what we don't want is for
them to turn down the opportunity to change their life in a long-term way just
for the short-term benefit of getting paid to go somewhere else."

Write to Jared Diamond at jared.diamond@wsj.com and Robert O'Connell at
robert.oconnell@wsj.com

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

To view this story in Bloomberg click here:
https://blinks.bloomberg.com/n...stories/SI7BQ0073ND0

Last edited by Texas1836

Here's the headline: "Ivy League Degrees Aren't Worth What They Used to Be in College Sports -- WSJ"

So I read the article.  Maybe I can't read, but exactly where in the contents support the headline that "Ivy League DEGREES Aren't Worth What They Used to Be?"

What I see are NIL observations. Note to WSJ: NIL benefits end when the kid leaves the school and have nothing to do with careers and employers. The headline is much broader than the contents and is calculated to drive clicks.

Do you have any articles which address Ivy athlete grads, earnings, career prospects, employers' hiring practices?

The Ivys haven't yet come to terms with NILs - and that's it. The Ivys don't have  NILs - and that's it. As for Ivy grad athlete career prospects changing, the article is silent.

Additionally, I do not doubt that simply attending an Ivy for a few years doesn't help a career. Graduating from an Ivy, however, is different from attending an Ivy.

(Also note that there was no refuting the point made by the Ivy comment that lifetime earnings trump NIL money (at least for most).)

Last edited by Goosegg
@Consultant posted:

Goosegg:

maybe this will help. https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone...&ei=38#image=101

Bob

PS: my teacher was Bill Veeck

The Ivies were founded as liberal arts colleges. At the time a well rounded liberal arts education was seen to make the man. MIT was founded as a speciality school to address the industrial age. The speciality at its founding was applied science and engineering. While many still see MIT as an engineering school it’s B school is one of the country’s elite programs.

I’m with Goose. An Ivy League education isn’t less valued. The Ivy League has issues with retaining top athletes. But the Michigan, Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Stanford, UCLA or Cal versus an Ivy for athletes decision has been around forever.

Until my son got injured and had to restart the recruiting process he was close to his decision coming down to Duke or an Ivy. This end game was his goal. Life changed. But he lived happily ever after playing at a Big 10 and attending their B school.

Last edited by RJM
@Goosegg posted:

Here's the headline: "Ivy League Degrees Aren't Worth What They Used to Be in College Sports -- WSJ"

So I read the article.  Maybe I can't read, but exactly where in the contents support the headline that "Ivy League DEGREES Aren't Worth What They Used to Be?"



I think the most generous interpretation of the headline is that an Ivy degree is less valuable as a recruiting tool than it was before NIL. This is why the authors of articles hate headline writers.

Son is a rising junior at an Ivy, just finished a summer season in the northwoods.  Baseball is very important to him and he'd like to stay connected to it for as long as he can.

He chose an ivy because a) his schoolwork put him in range and b) HA P5s weren't interested.

The experience is very different, from the amount of time permitted for practice to the state of most facilities. Very few people attend his games. No one is shopping for a new program.

Fenway's point about life after baseball is a good one. My son reasoned that the program he chose would be an okay platform to play baseball for a living and a very good platform to work in baseball (or anywhere else) for a living once he's done playing. But he's as focused on baseball as he would be if he was at A&M or Vandy. It's everything to him.

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