Jaeger results...

How old is your son? Is this max distance?

Bothsportsdad,

quote:

“son started this three weeks ago and in this three weeks he has gained a distance on his throws some 20 to 25 feet.. from 240 +/- to 265 +/-.”

This is to be expected when you start your ballistic portion of your training regimen that stimulates the Neural response in your young athlete. This activity does not increase his strength though much at all. You can not gain muscle mass with a 5.5 oz. object.
The problem here I see is the timing of his ballistic portion that should have started 8 weeks before his first Spring games but you are not far ahead though and if you are following your coaches demands must do so. The problem with starting this activity to early is that if you shut it down for any amount of time during X-mas and New years as a perceived rest break he will loose most of the benefits gained previously and have to start over again having gained little from the previous activity.

quote:

“I do not have a radar gun so I dont know the mph increase”

No need to know at this point because it will fluctuate wildly because of his ill timed effort (if he stops) and his general strength program that is not “sport specific” like everybody uses.

quote:

”What I would like to know is what we can expect in terms of increases moving forward and in what time frame.”

If he does not shut down the training he will hit a plateau in 3 to 6 weeks at this point turn your ballistic portion to off the mound and do not take any breaks in training timeline other than decreasing his strength portion to a maintenance program!!!

That sounds pretty normal for the beginning of the program. No way to know how any one individual is going to progress. Most likely he'll continue to gradually improve up to his true max distance and after that the improvements will be quite slow but IMO real improvements are possible.

As much as I hate to say it "Yardbird is right" (ouch that hurt!) about the initial improvements being mostly due to learning how to put more effort into the throw and the body figuring out the technique. The same thing typically happens early on in weighted ball training and from then on the improvements tend to be slow but real. Like any kind of training if you keep repeating the same routine for long enough you will tend to hit a plateau.

I know of a couple pro and ex-pro pitchers who would do the long toss and weighted ball training for a period once a year in the off season and who saw increases in velocity each year.

I doubt if anyone has researched it but it would seem that alternating let's say 9 week sessions of long toss and overload/underload training and hard throwing off the mound might help one break through plateaus.

BTW, if he shuts down for a while he won't lose all of the benefit of the previous activity and he'll get back whatever he does lose quite quickly as a great deal of the initial improvement was probably due to learning more than increased physical capability.

thx to all for the response:

-he is 16.

- yes the 260 foot +/- is his max "in the air" throw.. using an 80% effort 20% stretch formula mentioned in the Jaeger DVD. My son has never done any really serious arm strengthening work prior to this other than using a device I purchased for my daughter called the Finch Windmill. He would use this weekly and I honestly attribute his lack of any arm issues to it as he has caught and pitched his entire baseball career to this point... he has the "curse" of being able to throw strikes.

-We dont intend to shut down over the holidays. This is a three day a week commitment at this point and while right now the weather has been great and allowed us a M/W/F routine we will just adapt if weather doesnt cooperate.

- we started at this time b/c our showcase season ended in mid Oct and the HS season will start in Feb so we wanted to max what we could put into the program.

I think In the book the physics of baseball they stated that throwing 360 feet equals 100 mph. I don't know how accurate this is but maybe someone on this board knows the actual breakdowns.

this is a bit off topic, but in response to CB, I believe it is 90mph for 300 ft. But, I think the formula is bull. My son was tossing 290+ and his top gunned throw wass 77. So, I don't buy it.

2013 Dad,
In order to throw the ball 290+ feet with no wind the ball has to be traveling about 87 mph at release. It is as simple as that. BTW, it is 305' for 90mph. Obviously when long tossing one can be moving forward at a couple mph and thereby add to the velocity at release.

Be careful how you measure because a lot of players run up quite a ways to release the ball and if you aren't measuring at the release point that can be misleading. You also have to be careful that you don't have the wind behind you when throwing. Most kids will measure with a bit of a tailwind because it looks the best.

The other thing to note is that the ability to throw a ball 90 mph in long toss doesn't always translate directly to being able to throw that hard off the mound. The desire to throw strikes, inefficient mechanics, etc. can really knock down the velocity. The nice thing to know is that the potential to throw harder than 77 mph is certainly there. He probably should be able to pitch somewhere in the low 80s and top out in the mid to upper 80s. Find a good pitching instructor to work with.

There is a java script around that has exit speed vs distance...I lost the link but will go look for it but I believe it 90MPH is around 310-315ft range. You have to be careful with equating actual pitching velo with distance since mechanics has a lot to do with actual mound velo. I know my son went from 85ish to 87-89 purely on mechanics changes, his LT distance did not change much.

BSD, As far as the Jaeger program, you are going to find that he will get out to his max in 3-4 weeks and then start to plateau. I think there are a couple of benefits to their program. 1. He will get direct feedback on how effective he is in throwing the ball based on the distance thrown. 2) If done consistently with bullpen work he will build up the over all strength and endurance of his body/arm to go out and throw extended innings in a game. 3. It ingrains the concept of “throwing hard” into the athlete. As CADad pointed out he will lose a little after he shuts down, but once he starts back up he will quickly get back to his max and then start to exceed it particularly if he gets in the gym.

In the off-season he should be in the gym focusing on legs & core and don’t forget to stretch a lot. Focus on compound Olympic lifts. A LT program mixed in with effective workouts, and good mechanics training he will be able to achieve his potential. Forget about the “sport specific” mumbo jumbo that Yardbird throws around, an athlete needs to cross train in various methods to achieve their maximum potential. For example if sprinters were to follow his advice all they would do is run. You need to cross train in any athletic endeavor. Good luck you are on a great path to success!

Bothsportdad,

quote:

“My son has never done any really serious arm strengthening work prior to this other than using a device I purchased for my daughter called the Finch Windmill.”

This means he has done some very serious and correct closer to “sport specific “ training that is the best way to overload train just like world class track athletes who use running resistance devices like bungee and parachute training within their interval training programs. This great device is as good for baseball pitchers as it is for softball pitchers but seen as a gimmick by all baseball folks when it is a serious and well worth the effort part of his training that will teach him a better arm vector by allowing him to proprioceptively train (muscle memory) by getting his Humerus and Forearm more vertical through it’s drive phase. Outstanding!

quote:

“He would use this weekly and I honestly attribute his lack of any arm issues to it”

You are exactly right here and keep it up. The Finch windmill is a great sport specific tool!!!

I wouldn’t put to much thought in what BOF has to say on the subject of training or any other subject that I discuss because he has an axe to grind and does not understand by practice and his limiting street knowledge of how this main sports physiological tenet sport specificity actually helps and keeps his negative wheel rolling to the detriment of those who wish to practice and contribute in good information. At least he has toned down his personal attacks that he gets away with to mumbo jumbo.

CA and BOF, I apologize I wasn't clear. My son topped at 77 from OF throws, not on the mound. And when we practice we throw on a lined football field. He threw just over one goal line to the other. It was between 290 and 300 feet without a doubt. But at the couple showcases/tryouts he's been at, his best OF throw was 77, averaging about 74. Do I interpret your post to mean that he is capable of throwing 85-90 from the outfield, and hence there must be something wrong with his throwing mechanics? Please advise.

Follow up: Am I correct that based on those numbers this throw goes over 100mph...hard to believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujOu1tEr-7U

CADad, I found a thread on this topic written by a CADad on another site....is that you?

13Dad.

I would think there may be some technique issues. My son has not been gunned from the OF in 1-1/2 years, but he was throwing less than 300 feet when he was gunned at 84, so I would think that there is some real gain to be made in this area.

I will go find the app that has distance vs Velo. If BUM is around he has it.

Yardbird. I have not personally attacked you, just some of your training concepts that are counter to the generally accepted training methods used in baseball and other sports.

On the other hand I’d insult you, but i know you wouldn't understand... ...sorry had the throw that one in there.

Since I am on a roll here, 13Dad contact Yardbird and he can help your son improve his velo to say 73 or 74...bada bing...

Is this the app you are looking for?

http://faculty.tcc.fl.edu/scma.../Java/baseball4.html

That would be it, thanks! Whata site this is...so much knowlege and help....except of course for Yardbird....OK..OK I will knock it off.

I know it is from a batted ball but it should be close enough.

2013,
I don't mean anything specific about your son. Given that he's making throws from the outfield my guess is that he's not putting anywhere near the same effort into making those throws from the outfield as he is into long toss. He's probably trying to be more accurate and "hit the cutoff man".

Do I think he's got the ability to throw the ball in the upper 80's? Yes. He already has.

My son has been doing long toss since he was 8.

While he doesn't do the Jaeger thing entirely, he loves going out and airing out his arm. My son says that his arm feels great when he really airs it out for distance. He does it 2 - 3 times per week. We used the JAVA applet in evaluating his progress (it's fun to play with and makes LT more entertaining).

One size does not fit all; I have come to believe that a player's arm will "tell" him what works; and for S long, LT works. (To some LT is 150 ft.; to the Jaeger disciple, the player needs longer than a football field - including endzones!)

S is now an 18 freshman. At a skinny 6', 152, he can throw the length of the field -- endzones included. He is able to bring most of that speed to the mound (recognize that the player will not be able to capture 100% of the LT velo for a variety of reasons). He would tell you that years of long LT was a critical component of his velo development (don't confuse LT with pitching mechanics; it is more of a muscle builder and the player should understand that). It also takes a long time to build deep strength and the development will be gradual.

Patience, dedication, and years of LT will pay healthy dividends.

LittleSwat was throwing low 80s, but only managed to throw 150 feet when he started LT for the first time this fall. Does this mean he will be throwing 105 mph when he gets to 300 feet?

Swat, you are respected here, however, I find it very hard to believe that little swat could pitch in the 80s an only LT 150 ft, that's only 30 feet past second base from the plate. Surely, you are being sarcastic.

quote:

Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
Swat, you are respected here,

OK, you had me until then Seriously, it wasn't very far at all. BTW, don't tell CADad that my kid started LT - it was his HS coach's idea not mine.