Japanese Approach to hitting

The coach at my son's JUCO requires this approach. It looks a lot like Ichiro's. It is very hands orientated, the rear hip and foot slide forward, significantly reducing power. The benefit is that it really speeds up the hands. I am hopeful that once my son moves on, the quicker hands will stay with him, and he can bring his lower half back into the game. The results should be explosive.

Turin 2;
Florida fan know of my background. 26 years in International Baseball. 14 Goodwill Series with Japan.
Current roster of the Japan team list 7 players from our Series since 1983.

Today, at Sonoma State U near my home, I met with the Japan coach of Keio University from Tokyo "Big 6".

They used wood bats today against the SSU metal.

If you wish to discuss the Japan style of hitting, please e-mail or phone.

Each Japanese HS coach has a rigid 6 day practice schedule, including the "full lenght" mirror, the shadow and the visions of Sah OH.

Did you know that the HS coach for Ichiro gave the bunt sign every player on his team, until he had 2 strikes.

In 2005, I watched the game in Koshien with 32,000 fans in Osaka. 30 million watched on TV.

Look for the areas of the swing that the American player can use to improve.

Bob

I'd love to discuss this further. Can you PM me? I'd love as much insight as possible.

Bob,

You should be the go to guy on the japanese approach.

To me it appears to be a very "hands oriented" swing, which is not necessarilly a bad thing, but it seems to lose some power from the lower half.

What do you think?

Florida fan;

The lower half of the Japanese hitter is very strong.

You may desire to read of the 16th Century Japanese
Samurai.The famous sword fighter was Musashi.120 million copies of this book have been sold.

All of Japan business, political and baseball leaders are trained in the 9 Rings. Written in a cave by Musashi
in 1640.
Have you watched the film "Mr. Baseball" with Tom Selleck. This is a comedy but many methods are true.
The Japan coach has complete authority.

The solution is to take the best from America and add the training techniques from Japan.

The loose arms of the Japan hitters maybe the secret. Reminds me of Ted Williams.
When I hit in BP in Japan I copied the Japanese
hitters style. It is very comfortable.

Once in Seibu I watched the pro team take BP, the left handed hitters practiced their "hook" swing around the foul pole in RF. The shortest distance for a HR [290'].


Bob

I guess if you could, teach me. Tell me about the stance, the weight shift, the use of hips and hands, as a Japanese hitter would be taught. Are there any resources, a Japanese "Science of Hitting" so to speak.

Turnin2;

The Japanese coaches teach body balance and balance of the mind.

If you can locate the famous book titled "Oh".

This can begin the knowledge.
When you watch a hitter; cut him 1/2.

Watch the lower body and next watch the upper body.
Do this when you watch Japan and Korea play in today's World Games.

The hitters will use the "Zen" approach "BALANCE OF MIND AND BODY"

The Japanese professional and high school hitters all use the hip and quick hands.

With the daily High School practices in the 4,000 high schools, the Japanese HS hitter can "slow" the ball down in his mind.

My son as you know has traveled with our American teams for 16 years to Japan, China and Australia.
He now is Promotions Director for SSK, Japan bats and gloves.

Where do you live?

We are trying to include a Japan or Korean team to our Goodwill Series in Australia next December.
You should if possible spend time with the Japan coaches.

Yesterday, in Santa Rosa would have been perfect. Keio University played SSU.

Send me your address and maybe I can send a VHS of our games USA vs Japan.

Check your library for the "Sadaharu Oh" book

Bob Williams
<rwilliams@goodwillseries.org>

Bob,

does the japanese approach include a straight front leg and somewhat closed foot at the finnish? Also does the rear foot shift forward a bit as the hips clear?

I think that the rear foot shifting forward with the hip is what speeds up the hands.

Just looking at the mechanical side, not the Zen side, although I agree the mental side of hitting is huge.

I enjoyed Mr. Baseball and tried to learn about the japanese system from the movie. But don't they like to bring over americans because of the power they are capable of, hole in swing and all?

I live just north of Austin in Texas. I will definately look for that book. SSK are great gloves, played catch with the glove I used in college last night with my son!

Florida Fan and Turnin2;

You are correct.

Stan Musial used this weight shift.

Closed front side with many, many reps is the Japan way. The Americans extras in the movie are West Coast scouts. They have actors cards.
There is a recent book "Everything they Had" by the great author David Halberstam. In this book he talks about Reggie Smith career in Japan. Very true story.

Have you read his other books. "Summer of 49";
"October 64"; "Coldest Winter".

Several years ago, I read his 800 page book "The Reckoning" which tracks Nissan Motors and Ford Motor after the WWII. In a Japanese Tea ceremony, I was asked by the President of SSK what was my opinion of the book. With an translator, I recalled the entire book.

Bob

Bob you have a pm

You all have very good questions regarding the Japanese pitchers and hitters.

For 25 years, I tried without success to exam, evaluate, to utilize our American strength in an effort to win.

Only in 1984 on our trip to Japan with 7 future Major League players and a future agent for Scott Boros did we win.

All our players were selected by pro scouts from Northern California. The "common tread" was they were "hard nose" players and did not "like to lose".

When we were in Osaka and defeating the Osaka City "All stars", Larry our Coach replace the starting players. The Japan official approach me near the USA dugout and said "what is your coach doing"?

I said to provide playing time for all players.
NO NO!"We want your team to teach the Osaka All Stars"a lesson".

Now you can understand our 26 years in this International Baseball game. "It is different"!!..

Bob

Turnin 2, Matsui and Ichiro don't have the same swing mechanics... Matsui's hands follow a circular path, Ichiro's is "to the ball"...

Floridafan... in my opinion the handsy approach used by Ichiro and the others is typically a powerless approach... that is why a handful of years back when Mariner's were trying to earn a playoff spot, late in the year, AND Ichiro was fixing to break all-time hits record (in a season), he was pitched to over and over and over again... yet in the first few weeks of that same season, Bonds was already being pitched around....

The linear-type hitters usually aren't "game breakers".... but a guy like Bonds going 1-4 with a 3 run bomb can ruin your day....

But, JMO....

I am a big believer in using the "lower half", but believe that the hands play an important role as well.

quote:

The linear-type hitters usually aren't "game breakers".... but a guy like Bonds going 1-4 with a 3 run bomb can ruin your day....

And while the Americans are looking for the bomb for 3 runs.
The Japanese have put 10 runs on the board by putting the ball in play.
It's the way they approuch the game, Hitting and defense wins games.
Americans have big hitter's that can play no defense, that kind of trumps any advantage for the long ball.

Son went to Japan with Bob and the Goodwill Series.
He said that you can't strike them out, they will put the ball in play.
Thats were the defense comes in, try handling a wicked hit ball by Ichiro?
Then he will beat you with his speed, once on base.

A much more entertaining game to me. JMHO

EH

Nothing wrong with people preferring one way over another, but....

We really should be talking about pitching rather than hitting. After all, that was by far the biggest difference between Japan and USA in the WBC.

Just look at these team pitching stats for WBC games.

Pitching Stats
Japan – 79 IP – 50 H – 15 ER – 4 HR – 31 BB – 75 SO
USA – 68 IP – 87 H - 46 ER – 10 HR – 29 BB – 47 SO

Offensive stats were much closer
Japan – 9 games – 50 Runs – 92 Hits (ave 10 plus hits per game)
USA – 8 games – 50 Runs – 81 Hits (ave 10 plus hits per game)

The offensive output was nearly identical except the USA offense scored the same number of runs with one less game played.

The pitching however saw Japan give up 37 less hits in 11 more innings. They also gave up 31 less earned runs in 11 more innings. Japan pitchers also had 28 more strike outs.

The WBC isn’t a big enough picture to make any real determination, with only 8 or 9 games accounting for all the statistics. Then again “one” game sure shouldn’t have us throwing away the way the game is played over here. We all know (I think) that the Dominican players are better than the players from the Netherlands. Yet the Netherlands beat them, not once, but twice. Should those Dominican players who are Major League All Stars change the way they play and copy the Netherlands?

Another thought: if all the Japanese hitters could hit like Ichiro there would many more "Ichiro's" in the major leagues.

Personally, I think the Dominican's are better hitters overall

BUT

In New York State last season KEIO a Japanese school won the state title in their class

EH- if game is so much better there, why is Ichiro here? And how many other guys in Japan, that hit those ground balls, run like Ichiro... Ichiro is special because he has arm strength, foot speed, and great eye/hand coordination... bet there is 10,000 kids in Japan trying to emulate him, but don't put up his numbers or play the game very long because they can't beat out the ground ball...

PG-
Effort the rest of world gives to "futbol": "A"
Effort USA gives to "futbol": "D-"

Effort rest of world gives to WBC: "A"
Effort USA puts into WBC: "C-"

but, JMO

My point was Matsui and Ichiro are polar opposites away they approach the offensive part of the game...

And Ichiro in his first year as a Major Leaguer won Rookie of the year, and Player of the Year.
And the Mariners won the most games in the Major league's.
That was 8 years ago.
Alot has happened in Japan since then.
2 WBC championship's.
Ichiro plays in the US to dominate the world in hitting. Period.
He knew he would not be taken seriously till he dominated the MLB.
And he has done that, for sure.

The Japanese don't just hit ground balls.
They hit the ball over the infield, which is an art form.
They loft the ball over and in front of the outfielder's.
And then drive the ball in the gaps.
Its a better brand of baseball.
The way it should be and was the way it was played before the MLB became Homer ball.

EH

EH

I will reiterate what has been said---if the Japanese players are that much superior to US players why aren't their more of them in the big legaues?

TR, they make more money playing for there Japanese teams?

And the MLB owners don't have enough money to even ask a Japanese player if he would like to play for a MLB club.
The Japan owner's have there players tied to contracts.
How much money did the Boston Red Sox pay just for a chance to talk to a Japanese player??
And don't be surprised to see more Asian players in the next 10 years in the MLB.

EH

Plus I never said they were superior.
I said it was a better brand of baseball.
There approuch to the game is much more exciting then waiting for a Home Run. JMHO
EH

EH

Better = Superior

I do not equate money earned with ability--we have players in the bigs making millions and they hit .220

We have American players in JApan making loads of money but they are there because they had trouble making it in the USA

The Game is better, The style of play.
Not the Players that play it.
Even though the MLB could work on there defense a little more.

I have faith in the US ability to play the game.
Just not in the Approuch that the Owner's and Management takes in Just finding HR hitter's and forgetting the other factor's that make the game exciting.

EH

I would say that the Japaneese play superior baseball to the MLB.

The MLB game is laden with slow hulks waiting for home runs or big hits rather than bunting and making things happen.

Bunting for a single in the MLB seems to have become less than masculine, but it's as good as a one hopper to the outfield if you beat it out.

Good Morning;

1. MLB and Japan Professional Baseball have an agreement not to weaken the Japan Professional Teams. Each team is owned by a Major Corporation.
Several ML teams have a "working" relationship for the first opportunity to "petition" to sign a Japanese pro player after his 5 or 6 year term.
Many Japan pro players prefer to remain in Japan.

2. When a High School players graduates, he declares College or Pro baseball. He can not use both in his negotiations.

3. Several high school players have been signed by a US Major Team [Padres] before they entered college or pro baseball. It is very difficult to scout the high school teams, because they only play in tournaments in each of the 49 perfecture's *States].
There are 50-150 high school teams in each State.
Over 4,200 in Japan.

4. Baseball in Japan is over 100 years old.

5. The Japan High School National team, College teams and Pro Teams can be defeated by USA teams. The selection of American players and American coaches is the "key" to success. Running speed
is an important tool. Jerry pointed out the statistics in the recent games. Pitching and training was the difference.

One year, I was invited to view the Spring HS tournament in Koshien. 30,000 people attended this game each day of the tournament. My host the President of the JHS Federation mentioned that the Coach of the team on the field, bunted each batter each time at bat, until the hitter had 2 strikes.
This was Ichiro's former school.

I mentioned that, "if I was the opposing coach, I would move the left fielder into the infield until the hitter had 2 strikes".

I received the "look". Hai, yes I understand, but not yes I agree.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:
Good Morning;

1. MLB and Japan Professional Baseball have an agreement not to weaken the Japan Professional Teams. Each team is owned by a Major Corporation.
Several ML teams have a "working" relationship for the first opportunity to "petition" to sign a Japanese pro player after his 5 or 6 year term.
Many Japan pro players prefer to remain in Japan.

2. When a High School players graduates, he declares College or Pro baseball. He can not use both in his negotiations.

3. Several high school players have been signed by a US Major Team [Padres] before they entered college or pro baseball. It is very difficult to scout the high school teams, because they only play in tournaments in each of the 49 perfecture's *States].
There are 50-150 high school teams in each State.
Over 4,200 in Japan.

4. Baseball in Japan is over 100 years old.

5. The Japan High School National team, College teams and Pro Teams can be defeated by USA teams. The selection of American players and American coaches is the "key" to success. Running speed
is an important tool. Jerry pointed out the statistics in the recent games. Pitching and training was the difference.

One year, I was invited to view the Spring HS tournament in Koshien. 30,000 people attended this game each day of the tournament. My host the President of the JHS Federation mentioned that the Coach of the team on the field, bunted each batter each time at bat, until the hitter had 2 strikes.
This was Ichiro's former school.

I mentioned that, "if I was the opposing coach, I would move the left fielder into the infield until the hitter had 2 strikes".
I received the "look". Hai, yes I understand, but not yes I agree.

Bob

The phylosophy is very similar to that of the slap hitter in fastpitch softball and when the outfield is moved in,the slapper becomes a hitter.


I agree with quincy,the Japanese game is a better game imo.Maybe doesn't have the same level of talent but I really enjoy watching the game I must say that fastpitch is growing on me for much of the same reasons.

Get em on,get em over,get em in.

Hi Everyone;

Please read the MLB article on Bobby Valentine
and his desire to coach the USA team. I would add
Reggie Smith.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=200903

For the "great" trip this summer, it would be educational,fun and enlightening to travel to Japan in August.

We can meet Bobby Valentine,discuss Japan and USA hitting styles, watch a pro game, travel the bullet train and attend the Summer HS Tournament at Koshien.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Another thought: if all the Japanese hitters could hit like Ichiro there would many more "Ichiro's" in the major leagues.

Personally, I think the Dominican's are better hitters overall

BUT

In New York State last season KEIO a Japanese school won the state title in their class

Tr- Did you have to bring that up?
My son faced them in the State quarterfinals and took his first and only loss of the season after 9 wins. He had them to two runs over six innings but they slapped a few singles in the seventh and he was done. Left game down 4-1. His teammates couldnt get an out and before inning was over it was 7-1 No hard hits, just slapped it in spots where they got through

BUT- truth be told- pitching was their strength in this game too as their pitcher only allowed 2 hits and one run over 7 innings to sons team who were a good hitting club. Sons team coudnt touch the pitcher from Keio and got no hits over the last 5 innings.

Hopefully, he will get another shot at them this year.

I think Shuichi Murata could be considered a "power hitter". In 2008 he hit 46 home runs.

Here's a clip of him hitting a home run in the WBC...

EH-
I love the post you put about "MLB owner's don't have enough money to even ask a Japanese player would like to come play" and Japan has players tied to contracts"
and then two sentences later you put "don't be suprised to see more Asian players in MLB over next decade"...

those are opposite comments....

why are some of the best Japan players (i.e. Ichiro) over here and players that can't play here that are american over there?

fans here want HR's and high scoring games... so clubs function in that way... just a mind set... doesn't make it wrong or bad... puts people in seats and brings in $$... that is the bottom line nowadays isn't it?

purists prob wld prefer small ball, but that is not how things work here... not enough purists to make teams $$ so teams don't function that way...

If Japan brought a team over here to play, it would be exciting (I guess) but that is about it... take a team over there from MLB and the place would be sold out and people would be going crazy to get tickets, etc...

it's a mindset...

I don't think that this is confined to just American vs. Japanese styles. I think that in general the baseball in the 2 regions, (the Americas and the Far East) is more a product of the people and their societies. I'm probably gonna catch it for saying this.

The Americas (US, Mexico, Cuba, Dominican, PR, Etc.) have more bigger, stronger, athletic players playing baseball. We like thinks big. Over here, we're impressed and obsessed with big things like HR's, K's, and radar guns. So our game lends itself to our players and our society.

The Far East generally has somewhat smaller and overall faster players. They have an extreme work ethic and attention to detail imbedded in their culture that the people really appreciate, and probably expect from their players in all sports, not just baseball. So, again, their game lends itself to their players and their culture.

I think that our baseball is a better blend of both styles (AL vs. NL) than it is given credit for, its just that steroids era of the last decade or so has clouded it over. But steroidball is pretty much behind us, and make no mistake, for those who watched a lot of MLB, last season was the best baseball in a long time. Whether you like them or not, (sorry O's fan here) the TB Rays were so much fun to watch with their blend of speed, power, athleticism, and fundamental baseball. I found it funny that everyone kept talking about manager Maddon as thinking "out of the box", when I kept thinking he's playing the game that we're all playing at all the levels below! 1st to third, sac. flies, steal a base, bunt them over, hit to the right side. I'm sure this will continue this season and spread throughout MLB in the seasons to come.

BTW-I'm not sure what exactly a purist is, but before the past decade of steroidball the all-time home run, as well as the other major offensive categories, and strikeout lists were dominated by players that were in their prime in the 30's, 40's, 50's, & 60's. Our memories are often biased by how we wish that our memories were. Another visit to the HOF (one of the greatest places on earth!) will always help to clear those clouds and put these memories back in their proper perspective.

quote:

EH-
I love the post you put about "MLB owner's don't have enough money to even ask a Japanese player would like to come play" and Japan has players tied to contracts"
and then two sentences later you put "don't be suprised to see more Asian players in MLB over next decade"...

those are opposite comments....

Is Japan the only Asian country out there??

And believe me you will see more players from there if they continue to out hit out hustle out defend players from traditional powerhouses. JMHO

EH

The typical ML baseball fan does not want to see pure baseball. They could careless about watching guys move runners , bunt etc. They want gorilla ball. They want to see home runs , fireworks after every long ball , etc etc.

Ask them and they will tell you they would much rather see a slugfest than a well played 3-2 ball game. When is the last time Sports Center has shown a highlight of a perfectly placed sac bunt or well executed hit and run? Nope its home runs and webgems.

This is not Japan. People do not go to the ball park to see a guy slap it around the field. Not in America. Its just not part of our baseball culture. Its no different in basketball. A 60-58 defensive struggle on the hardwood is called boring. A 110 - 105 run and gun dunk athon is what people want to see.

I love pure baseball. I love to see hitters move runners , bunts put down etc etc. But the average fan quite honestly doesnt know what the hell is going on half the time anyway. Get me a beer , how about another hot dog , dang when is someone going yard?

I know you guys are right about the MLB fans, and thats the way the product is being sold.
But you will see that winning also will put butts in the seats.
And any owner worth his salt will recognize that fact and go back to playing the game of baseball, not Gorilla ball as you say.

JMHO

EH

Bob Williams,

I enjoy your insight into Japanese baseball.

I believe they know more about the teaching of the swing than their American counterparts.

And.....I have to laugh at the comments about Ichiro's approach being 'handsy'.

His swing, and every Japanese swing I've seen, is very much a body swing with excellent loading technique and outstanding usage of the rear leg and hip.

And their knowledge of balance and how to use it is exceptional. Notice few if any show any lean over the plate. Their spines are as upright as possible while still being balanced over bent knees.

That is an important key.

quote:

His swing, and every Japanese swing I've seen, is very much a body swing with excellent loading technique and outstanding usage of the rear leg and hip.

How is "rear leg" used in a swing, besides as a foundation?....

quote:

And their knowledge of balance and how to use it is exceptional. Notice few if any show any lean over the plate.

what is wrong with a "hip lean" over plate... since arms work perpendicular to torso, maybe they are gettting upper body on plane of pitch with the "lean over the plate?"

The Braves hit 3 HRs to beat the Phillies in the MLB opener. There were no errors in the game and Derek Lowe was outstanding.

In the opener in Japan at the Tokyo Dome the Yomiuri Giants lost to the Hiroshima Toyo Carp 5-3. The Giants scored their 3 runs on 3 HRs. The Carp scored 4 runs in the 8th on a 3 run HR and a solo HR. In that 5-3 game there were 5 homeruns.

I know that it's only one game (the opener) but sure doesn't sound like small ball at the Tokyo Dome.

BTW, If my figures are correct... The defending Japan champs (Giants) hit 177 homeruns in 144 games last year. That averages out to 1.23 homeruns per game. The MLB Champion Phillies averaged 1.33 homeruns per game. Basically 10 more HRs over a 100 games.

I think we tend to look at Ichero and think that everyone in Japan plays like him. Baseball is baseball! Japans most famous player ever (Sadaharu Oh) hit 868 homeruns and had a .301 lifetime batting average.

IMO, the one area that Japan is most different than the USA involves preparation. The Japanese players work very hard.

I would be interested in seeing the strikeout numbers in the Japanese league verses the strikeout numbers in the MLB.

From watching their approach in world competition,their approach with 2 strikes is put the ball in play where I see American players still going for the long ball.

Am I the only one that sees this or is it just the world competition we see this?

I like the long ball as much as the next guy but when the situation dictates,just put the darn ball in play and move some runners.Am I alone here?