JUCO…not good enough?

@Sandlotdad posted:

@CollegebaseballInsights great breakdown, the Juco pipeline dashboard is just what we needed.   The biggest concern of my son’s was how many kids at a particular jc went on to D1’s and which ones. I was googling each Juco kid one by one to see where they ended up. This is big time!

The traceability of transfers is challenging, target schools don't always collect data in a coherent way.  Players and Parents can't always trust if the JUCO'S (if available) moving on  page is accurate.

I would recommend that you also look at https://thejbb.net/, Noah Sharp has some good content. It all depends on what your family is trying to map out.

We are still in reconciling the content, but the user will have a good starting point as we continue the clean up process.

@DanJ posted:

A 3.1 is high enough to get a STUDENT into most D1 schools, but a 3.1 BASEBALL player is different.  I always find it odd that just about everyone stresses getting good grades, but almost no one ever puts that into numbers.  With all the focus we put on numbers when it comes to exit velos, 60s, etc, we seemingly don't when we're stressing getting good grades.  My 2021 (playing Juco ball) had good interest from a couple D1s.  At one point, one of them (from the AAC) told him that his grades were a big problem.  He had a 3.1.  So what's wrong with a 3.1 for a baseball recruit?  It can tie the hands of the school with regard to money they can offer.  Specifically, academic monies.  There's a lesson here.  Play college FOOTBALL!  My son actually had 3 D2 offers to kick/punt.  With those guys, his 3.1 made him an Einstein!

Yes, my point was it should be actually be easier for a baseball player. Admissions is much more lax when it comes to scholarship athletes. You think everyone at Duke, Notre Dame and Vanderbilt had a 4.4 and a 1550 coming out of HS?

Mine committed before taking the SAT. He bombed it the first time. Not a "fell short of expectations" bombing, but a Holy $h!t type bombing. His coach texted him how his SAT went and he lied for days about not getting the results back because he was worried it would be an issue with getting into the school. His score was nowhere near the range of accepted students. He finally let his coach know that he had bombed it and would be taking it again. When he told him the score his coach laughed and said "I thought you bombed it". He told him he was fine and there wasn't a need to take it again. He took it one more time, because I had already paid for another and just in case he did alright the second time and got some form of merit money.

But a 3.1 should not be an issue. My guess is that if the grades were an issue the coach was probably looking at walk on options and would prefer to have a player with a higher GPA to boost the team GPA. Looks nice for the athletic dept.

At first I was curious if those athletes who received a lot of help getting through admissions could survive or thrive in those HA institutions with academic rigor. Given what I seen with players from the other sports, the answer was a clear yes

Why do so many people assume that kids that go JuCo are inferior students?

@adbono posted:

Why do so many people assume that kids that go JuCo are inferior students?

IMHO, lack of information, many look at school with a boom or bust mindset.

How many initially research JUCO's from academic (College Navigator) or athletic perspective.

Most of the time the thought of JUCO comes as a afterthought.  If you go to a tournament the JUCO is not considered the girl you would like to go out with, they would rather go to a D1 with a poor baseball program.  

We all know many of the programs so I will not list.

Below is something that IMHO a good way to initiate guidance and understanding of JUCO programs.

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...o-baseball-part-1-3/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ll-part-2-academics/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...part-3-transferring/

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...t-4-level-of-play-2/

@adbono posted:

Why do so many people assume that kids that go JuCo are inferior students?

My answer to that is in my experience the kids who I have a known that went JUCO were almost always academic challenges. Possible that is not correct across the board but it has been my in experience. Well that and the see below, this is pasted directly from the 2nd link CBinsites provided. It doesn't ring of the academics i might be anticipating for college and I am not an HA guy.

Community  College Academic Entry Requirements:  One of the reasons why  community college baseball is popular is because it has the most flexible academic entry requirements of any level of  collegiate baseball. Student-athletes who don’t qualify academically to play at a 4-year school can still play  community college baseball as long as they meet the following qualifications:  a student-athlete must have graduated from high school with an academic diploma, a GED, or  a state department of education approved high school equivalency test. 

@RJM posted:

Unless your school grades on a 5.0 scale those GPA’s are weighted. If it is scored on a 5.0 scale the colleges will scale it down to a more normal 4.0 scale. Colleges want to know unweighted GPA’s. The reason is there isn’t an across the board standard for GPA’s. Was your son’s 3.1 weighted or 3.1 out of 5.0?

My kid’s high school didn’t publicly weight GPA’s. But when a kid with a 3.5 graduated higher in his class than a kid with a 3.7 it was obvious the 3.5 was in AP, high honors or gifted and the 3.5 was general college studies.

My son's school doesn't provide unweighted GPA's. It's very strange. They are also one of the most academically rigorous schools in the SE. Last year the seniors sent 6 kids to Ivy schools and a handful of others to UChicago, CalTech, and MIT. The college counselors told us the school has a reputation with the high academic universities.

The first few times my son talked to coaches they asked for his unweighted and he wasn't comfortable explaining the school won't provide it. They all seemed to get it and now it is no big deal.

@adbono posted:

Why do so many people assume that kids that go JuCo are inferior students?

I grew up in the midwest and - fair or unfair - Juco kids were always associated with problems.  Academics, behavioral, etc.  It was where college football and basketball coaches had to go grab from when they needed to fill holes immediately, but it came with risk.  I can't say whether this was true everywhere or even how true it was around here, but can say unequivocally that it was how everyone thought about Jucos.  I'll say this.  I watched season 3 of Last Chance U on Netflix and it lined up exactly with the stereotypes I grew up with.

Interesting epilogue.  That season of Last Chance U followed a Juco football program that plays in the Jayhawk Conference.  My son is currently playing in that conference but as a baseball player.  He's a good, not great student, and thus far, school has NOT been a cakewalk for him.  He took honors level math all through high school but has struggled in his first semester math class.  Granted, due to fall ball, he missed more actual math classes than any other class, but still.  An honors-level math student struggling in his first semester math class at a Juco?  It's definitely changing some of my perceptions.

Baseballinsights, that is "outstanding" information. As a "part time" California JC teacher, the students including adults [evening class on Leadership] were always prepared with questions. SRJC has a 25,000 enrollment including the adults and is ranked #8 in the Nation.

Bob

@DanJ posted:

I grew up in the midwest and - fair or unfair - Juco kids were always associated with problems.  Academics, behavioral, etc.  It was where college football and basketball coaches had to go grab from when they needed to fill holes immediately, but it came with risk.  I can't say whether this was true everywhere or even how true it was around here, but can say unequivocally that it was how everyone thought about Jucos.  I'll say this.  I watched season 3 of Last Chance U on Netflix and it lined up exactly with the stereotypes I grew up with.

Interesting epilogue.  That season of Last Chance U followed a Juco football program that plays in the Jayhawk Conference.  My son is currently playing in that conference but as a baseball player.  He's a good, not great student, and thus far, school has NOT been a cakewalk for him.  He took honors level math all through high school but has struggled in his first semester math class.  Granted, due to fall ball, he missed more actual math classes than any other class, but still.  An honors-level math student struggling in his first semester math class at a Juco?  It's definitely changing some of my perceptions.

I think the perception you mentioned does  not play out in JuCo baseball the way it may in the other sports you mentioned. Almost all the kids that I know of that play(ed) JuCo played baseball. And JuCo baseball in Texas isn’t Last Chance U by any means. It is often the best baseball opportunity a Texas HS kid receives. So in Texas a lot of really good students go JuCo for the baseball opportunity, receive their Associates Degree in those 2 years, and transfer to a 4 year school (usually an in state public school) where they receive the same degree they would have if they had started there. The difference is (if they play it right) they are on the field getting better as freshmen and sophomores in JuCo vs riding the pine (at best), not getting better (but getting bitter) at a 4 year school. Never before has it been harder for a freshman or sophomore position player to get playing time at a top 50 D1or a top 25 D2 program. JuCo is just a smarter baseball option for the vast majority of HS players in our region of the country (TX, OK, LA, AR, NM) and it usually has no negative impact on the quality of education (and the degree) that any player eventually earns.

In 1990, the year that SRJC was #3 in the State of California.

on this team was a future MLB player; a Baltimore Orioles Coach and a Manager; Ass't GM of the San Diego Padres and 12 players, who played at a Division 1 school.

Bob

Bob, you and I have both pimped SRJC here often enough that some may be tired  of it, but I'd also point out that more recently, there was a SRJC player on the Dodgers NLCS roster this year, another playing AA for the Phillies, and a whole bunch playing D1, D2, and NAIA baseball.

More importantly, on the academic side, an average of 1,500 SRJC students transfer to 4 year schools each year, mostly to the UC and Cal State systems.

Baseball aside, with the rising, excessive cost of college now JuCos are a way to keep the costs down for a couple of years. It doesn’t matter where you start college. It’s where you graduate. Then, after a few years of work the college doesn’t matter anymore with all things being equal in the work force.

However, a college network can make a difference. As the old expression gives about swinging dead cats without being able to hit something,, Penn State is the largest alumni organization in the world. I’ve witnessed conversations on planes turn into semi interviews between Penn State people on planes.

For people without connections, sometimes you just have to kick down the door if someone won’t open it for you.

@adbono posted:

Why do so many people assume that kids that go JuCo are inferior students?

I think most people are like me in that they knew somebody in their past who struggled academically who ended up going to a JuCo or Community College.  I do think times and attitudes have changed.....a lot.  The general population sees the value in a JUCo education as a stepping stone to a 4 year degree for cost and career reasons.   In Virginia, if you graduate with a 2-year degree with a  3.0+ (3.5 ideally) you can try to transfer into some of the flagship state schools (UVA, VT, JMU, GMU, ODU, Radford, Longwood, VCU, etc..) while paying significantly less for that 4 year degree.   JuCo is a heck of deal in today's higher ed marketplace.    Certainly, potential college athletes see a similar value as a stepping stone to D1.   It is a great proving ground both athletically and academically.

If more states better fund JuCos then I think you're going to see this become a familiar path for many, many more.   I read an article a couple weeks ago about the trend of recent high school graduates not wanting to go to 4-year colleges.   I suspect some will go into a trade and may require at least a 2-year degree.   From my perspective, I think JuCos will be enrolling more and more students over the coming years.   Not to get too far into politics, but I think some of the politicians latched onto this and tried to get free Juco education to everyone....it got axed in Biden's trillion (or multi-trillion) agenda, but it was considered is the point.   

JMO.

@JCG posted:

Bob, you and I have both pimped SRJC here often enough that some may be tired  of it, but I'd also point out that more recently, there was a SRJC player on the Dodgers NLCS roster this year, another playing AA for the Phillies, and a whole bunch playing D1, D2, and NAIA baseball.

More importantly, on the academic side, an average of 1,500 SRJC students transfer to 4 year schools each year, mostly to the UC and Cal State systems.

If SRJC is Santa Rosa, this is their 2021 JUCO Pipeline footprint

Here is the detail

@fenwaysouth posted:

I think most people are like me in that they knew somebody in their past who struggled academically who ended up going to a JuCo or Community College.  I do think times and attitudes have changed.....a lot.  The general population sees the value in a JUCo education as a stepping stone to a 4 year degree for cost and career reasons.   In Virginia, if you graduate with a 2-year degree with a  3.0+ (3.5 ideally) you can try to transfer into some of the flagship state schools (UVA, VT, JMU, GMU, ODU, Radford, Longwood, VCU, etc..) while paying significantly less for that 4 year degree.   JuCo is a heck of deal in today's higher ed marketplace.    Certainly, potential college athletes see a similar value as a stepping stone to D1.   It is a great proving ground both athletically and academically.

If more states better fund JuCos then I think you're going to see this become a familiar path for many, many more.   I read an article a couple weeks ago about the trend of recent high school graduates not wanting to go to 4-year colleges.   I suspect some will go into a trade and may require at least a 2-year degree.   From my perspective, I think JuCos will be enrolling more and more students over the coming years.   Not to get too far into politics, but I think some of the politicians latched onto this and tried to get free Juco education to everyone....it got axed in Biden's trillion (or multi-trillion) agenda, but it was considered is the point.   

JMO.

You are spot on.  Manchin and Sinena eliminated it. Note, the proposed revenue model had it covered for 10 years.

Baseballinsights:

that is amazing numbers. I appreciate your research.

A new baseball field is "under construction" at SRJC. The school has the famous "Doyle" scholarships.

Thank you;

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Baseballinsights:

that is amazing numbers. A new baseball field is "under construction".

Thank you;

Bob

Again?? Didn't they put that field in only 12 or so years ago?

@Consultant posted:

Baseballinsights:

that is amazing numbers. I appreciate your research.

A new baseball field is "under construction" at SRJC. The school has the famous "Doyle" scholarships.

Thank you;

Bob

Here is the release overview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFuIV8sXZL4