Just how bad do your son and you want it?

As the parent of an '08 son, I'm still gathering my thoughts. But I've had a couple of interesting conversations recently that are helping me to form a more well-rounded perspective. Mother A told me about her son, who played top level s****r and was heavily recruited by a number of top colleges. He ended up at an out-of-state school and then blew out his knee freshman season. He recovered, but she feels that fear of getting reinjured kept him from giving 100%. After a mediocre sophomore season, he transferred to a lower-level D1 where he still wasn't able to start on the team. She said that athletics had always received top priority with their family and that her son was absolutely devastated when his dreams of playing pro s****r did not materialize. She said he was depressed and aimless through the rest of his college career and years later, he is managing a restaurant. She feels he could have gone a lot further in life if she and her husband had emphasized academics more. Mother B had a stud golfer for a son, #1 as a sophomore on his large high school team. He had big aspirations and with his father's blessing (his parents were divorced and his dad controlled his savings), he spent all of his trust fund on a specialized golf school in Florida, where he finished his junior and senior years of high school. I believe she said it cost $56,000 per year. He ended up with a scholarship to a D1 school, but it was out-of-state and the "scholarship" consisted of in-state tuition plus a few thousand extra per year. He had been "top dog" for a long time, but at this school he did not stand out as there were a number of other "top dogs" on his team. He had visited this school during the summer when classes were not in session and was shocked when the school year commenced. He was in the distinct minority and was resented by many of the other students for being white and "rich." His car was broken into numerous times and he ended up transferring out. He is now a junior and has quit golf altogether, choosing instead to focus on academics. His mother said that he could have paid for his 4 years of college tuition 2 times over had he not spent his trust fund pursuing golf.

Interesting and sounds familiar with another discussion going on.
I beleive that first and foremost importance for going to college is to further one's education. Broadens horizons and keep the brain working. Some place more importance on athletics than school. That's not a bad thing but there needs to be a balance. When a student athlete begins to fail in class, then maybe too much emphasis on the importance of sports over academics was what was expected from the player when he was growing up. Maybe he/she just can't do both. Fortunetly, I think athletes realize this before parents do. JMO.

You pose an interesting question. Would we send son off to play at school for 40K a year, no program he is interested in, no scholarship just so he could play ball amd earn a degree. I don't think so. If he wanted a law degree at Harvard but wanted to play baseball would we have encouraged him to continue the game? I don't think so.

Son's dream is to play pro ball, so we encouraged him to find a school where he could earn a degree (if not most of it) and play. If we didn't feel furthering one's education was important he would not be in college. Working towards a degree, no matter what it was, we felt was important for him as working towards a degree shows a commitment. We didn't think he would pursue anymore education if he went pro after HS. But that was what we felt was important for him.
I think it comes down to knowing your child, knowing where his/her strengths and weaknesses lie. Being able to head him in the right direction when he was young was important, even if it meant telling son it was time to hang up the cleats and move on.

In other words, if we thought son was the next Einstein, he wouldn't be playing ball after HS.
Sports has become such a big business, most parents don't look at their sons as the next Einstein, but the next Jeter.

Wow - sad stories...

Consider this though... Many (most?) students change their dreams based on the reality of their academic achievements or financial wherewithal, not just athletes. Not everyone should go to Harvard or Stanford. Conversely, not everyone should play ball at a D1. How many parents emphasize academics, but get a student not quite ready to go to a 4-year college, but instead opts for a JC, trade school, or a job? It's called life. Rarely does a parent "make" their son into a baseball player. Without talent,drive,and genetics, all you've done is purchase the uniform (and maybe paid for the lessons and the gas to practice). No matter how much you "want" it as a parent, it has to come from them. I think our kid was just born to be a pitcher. We helped, and coaches improved, but he is what he is. If he turns out to be a fireman or a hotel manager after baseball, it wasn't because he "failed" at baseball and had the talent to go to Harvard (but for the evil parents), it was just meant to be, and we are proud of him either way. I am hoping you remember the many positives your son or daughter gets from sports that carries over into whatever they do. I tell my son that he has to pay me back for the lessons, driving, time and effort - by doing the same thing for his son someday.

My son is at his school for baseball and only baseball. If it were not for baseball, he would be going to a different school, for certain. As far as "how bad does he want it," I told him he needs to ask himself the following question every day: "Did anyone on the team out work me today." If the answer is "yes," then he has to work harder the next day.

Many also after one or two years at the college level begin to see academics as being a bit more important than they first thought. For many, they realize that there is life after baseball! The what ifs seem to become more of a reality, what if I get hurt, as an example.

My 2 year old dream: stop hitting his sister with the whiffle ball bat

My current dream: graduate in 4 years with a degree that will provide a living, and play baseball, in that order.


Drawing the line is difficult as most lines drawn cut into a players opportunities to play on. We drew the line on expensive travel teams and paid coaching. In terms of college he already told us what he was interested in and we told him he needed to attend a school that offered his desired degree program. He could have attended schools that were a lot more interested in him as a baseball player, but those schools did not offer his degree program, so I guess education came first, although he could have choosen another school ranked higher academically, so I am not really sure! Maybe its a bright grey line?

I guess academics narrowed the choices and baseball weather lead to his final decision. He didn't go out of state as we wouldn't pay the tuition!!

The checkbook attack and drawing lines doesn't end with high school

Interestingly many kids on his college team currently pay big bucks for a "professional" strength trainer and their own hitting coach year round.

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JB...Good topic...

We have been down this road before...but not for a while..I may be far too idealistic, but...MY god, they are young men, there is enough heavy reality in the next 50 years...while they are young, let them dream. Let'em try life out. Why not?...

- IMO, he purpose of college is not trade school, The purpose of college is education and that is acheived by the individual not by the institution. If I wanted him to find an excellent trade after high school I would have apprenticed him as a plumber. I expect my son to work hard and become solidly educated no matter where he goes, playing ball or not.

- I believe that an ability to handle life beyond college is bigger and more important for him than Ivy diplomas and the "right" major alone. Physical, mental, spiritual, social and personal development are important as well. The biggest lessons in college are often not learned in the classroom.

- I believe that for my son to fulfill his purpose in this life then he must follow his passion, more than his pocketbook, the herd, money, trophy diplomas, or the fear that he will not have graduated from the right school with the right diploma. I know tons of people with the right majors from the right schools who have the right jobs and...are miserable.

- I expect him to show me, and future employers that the character of the individual is much more important than who issued the diploma, or what major he undertook. I expect this to set him apart.

- I believe that my son has the right to change his mind and switch majors or directions in college, and beyond. I believe this is often a great idea. I believe this is his right.

- I believe that one of the greatest lessons that college can teach is how difficult and how important it is to learn to juggle many areas of life at once. I belive that one the biggest problems facing our country is absantee parents who are far too career minded. I believe this starts early (the best high school, the best college, the best career...) I believe that this often leads to "careeritis" where career is more important than family or spouse. I don't wish "careeritis" on my sons, or their families.

- I believe that chasing a dream, failing and then learning how to pick ones self back up is perhaps the greatest lesson one can learn. And based upon the numbers game of college sports this is likley what will happen. Can't teach that in a classroom.

- I believe that in the end, when we are waiting to meet our maker, we will all wish that we had chased more dreams, taken more chances. I don't believe that we wished we had gone to a better school and gotten a different diploma.....


....if you could do anything you wanted....if you could have a wish....

And you're the kind of man who could grant me that wish?

I don't know. I'm just asking.

You know,I never got to bat in the major leagues. I'd have liked to have had that chance, just once...to stare down a big-league pitcher. Stare him down, then just as he goes into his windup, wink. Make him think you know something he doesn't. That's what I wish for. The chance to squint at a sky so blue that it hurts your eyes to look at it. To feel the tingle in your arms as you connect with the ball. To run the bases, stretch a double into a triple...and flop face first into third. Wrap your arms around the bag.

That's my wish.


In the end....There are no guarantees even with a great diploma from a perfect school...life is to be lived..and experienced...sports are a great part of that for the few who are lucky enough to be educated by them.

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Wow - great post 044

excellent post observer40. Live the dream and avoid a lifetime of regret. Live the dream correctly and land on your feet running, in baseball or not.

O'44:

About the only thing I have to say is that pitcher you are staring down and giving a wink...I hope it's Hoyt Wilhelm or Wilbur Wood and not Drysdale or Gibson.

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Thanks....


TXMom...EXACTLY! THEIR dream. THEIR life. MY support.


Infieldad...Here is the result of that wink...I take the knuckler! Wakefield.

Knuckles, what did you throw at the kid for?

He winked at me!

Don't wink, kid. Good thing for you he didn't throw the fastball.

44
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ob44 - yours is one of the greatest posts I have ever read on the hsbbweb and I believe I have read most of them. A monster classic

I agree with infielddad

I'll never forget the post where infielddad shared the sheer joy and excitement when his son batted against Randy Johnson. I too believe that one at bat would be worth it

One should not view athletics as more important than academics, this seems self-apprent, but in most cases (save the Harvard example above) the two pursuits are not mutually-exclusive. Why not play ball?

If your kid did make the majors, would he suddently put family, God, or country second to it? Of course not. So why do we as parents feel so guilty thinking playing ball is somehow distracting them from academics? In fact, for most kids successful at baseball at the highest levels, they have plenty of mental discipline to handle both tasks, and I would argue that most (higher level ballplayers) have been better academically because of this discipline derived from baseball.

I have a Master's degree, but that doesn't define me. What defines me is the overall person I am, what I enjoy.. if for one moment you took away the joy, the distraction, and the insanity of baseball, I would be less of a person.

We all want to make more money, and getting a good degree is a big part of that. But remember, the whole point of more making more money is to afford ourselves the time to pursue what we really love, in this case baseball. You see, I guarantee you twenty years from now your kid will remember his teammates, and that day he went 4-5 with six RBI's, not the chemistry test! And he will have realized that true wealth is living the dream.

O44 - You have shared every single thought I have on this subject but put it into words the way I never could have. CD said "monster classic" and I couldn't agree more! Some of the truest words I've ever read!

44,



That...was...just... beautifull!!!

Thank you Orlando.....every once in awhile....it's very good to be reminded about what's important....and you did good...doing just that......

Justbaseball....we support our son....and his dreams.....he is at the school of his choice.....and will be a starter on his team......he is too far away for me....but where he should be for himself.....and he earned that right.....to live his dream.....

Great topic and some great thoughts.
I think that in the realm of sports parents are provided an unique and sometimes rare opportunity to help a child learn the merrits of discipline. With the childs' motivation and some talent the rewards for persistant effort become obvious.
Hard work (play) will not always lead to success. Rekindling motivation after a setback is a delicate process one administers to the wounded ego of a child in many situations. It's a lot easier if the goals are the child's, the fire is his own to rediscover.
Someday, eventually the play will end but the lessons on what it takes to be "In the Game" will accompany the fledgling to other endeavors and hopefully make for a full life.
Rollerman

Who would you hire - a kid with a 3.0 average and played 4 years of baseball or a kid with a 3.5 with no other commitments?

Great topic. I have to agree with brod. You have to know your kid(s), and more importantly, they have to know themselves. Knowing themselves, of course, happens in stages.

Some kids are born academians. Some are born sportsman. Some are just born.

There are things that are more important than a college education - and baseball. Be it either - we, as a generation, need to encourage and guide our kids. We also need to stop living our lives vicariously through them whether on the field or in the classroom. We need to stop short changing decisions that we would not make. There is no need to beat our heads against the wall because Little Man (or Little Girl) chose one thing over another. If they are happy, healthy, not in prison or addicted, spiritually connectd in some way, we've done our jobs and then some. I'm just as content and excited for the one that chose junior college as I am for the one that dropped out of the D1 to pursue his dreams - and for the one that decided grad school is the next step.

quote:

There are things that are more important than a college education - and baseball.

Very good point! And absolutely true IMO. Of course that is not saying college education and/or baseball is unimportant.

I would definetly hire the player with the degree and baseball experience. After one has degree in hand, the GPA isn't all that important.
Baseball players who graduate have very little trouble finding jobs. Their coaches recommendation alone has power for them to be a strong consideration for a position. Any player who is able to go to school, play baseball at the same time shows commitment, loyalty and very adept at multi tasking.

Agree with all who say ob44'a post was the best ever. Wow.

O44. I believe that I just read one of the all time great posts on HSBBW when I read your profound thoughts.

That post alone should qualify as a classic.

WOW! O44, I've read your post 3 times. You very eloquently state what is most important for us parents to remember through all this craziness of recruiting. For those of us with players still in high school this post says it all. Thank you for sharing your hard-earned wisdom with us.

..

08Dad, Dad04, infielddad, ClevelandDad, lafmom, play baseball, Holden Caulfield, TPM, Justbaseball, 06catcherdad, CaBB...

At work, just back and....WOW!

Thank you so much. I am so very gratified that you found value in the post.

I kind of got kind of got carried away...both boys now tucked away at college and I apparently had WAY too much time on my hands...

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Observer44 ,

Fabulous post!! amazing insight!

catchersdad

These are the kind of posts and discussion that keep me coming back to HSBBW. Thank you!

OB44

Great post - well said. Really hit "home" with many of your thoughts. So true that some really important life lessons are learned from their experience with this wonderful game we love.

Thank you!

44---

on your fabulous post.

But you do have to give some credit to Moonlight Graham.

quote:

I believe that in the end, when we are waiting to meet our maker, we will all wish that we had chased more dreams, taken more chances

Very well stated O44. Dreams are what keeps us going, and I for one, am going to do all I can to help my son chase those dreams!

Consider the movie "The Rookie". The father was represented as the type of parent who suppressed his son's dreams and fabulously, in the end, was redeemed with the gift of a baseball.

quote:

Just how bad do your son and you want it?

I've alway's been afraid of being the (To pushy type parent ).
Not trying to make it my Dream instead of my Son's.
I do not want to live my Dream's thru my Son.
I enjoy watching. Not just my own, But every Player.

The one thing that I've tried to convey to my son, Is play with no Regret's.
Meaning, Don't look back and say I should of done this are I should of done that.
Do the best you can, And whatever happen's Happen's.
You can live with That. No regret's. No Glory Day's!!!

O44, Great post.
Every generation want's thing's to go better for the next generation. No different now than then.

The EH is one of those apprenticed Tradesman. In Fact 2 seperate Apprenticeship's. One when I was out of HS, And one when I was 30 yrs. old. I'm a 4th to 5th generation of Tradesman.
Family has worked on anything From the Golden Gate Bridge, to Grand Coolee Dam. And all point's in between.
I'm very proud of that Fact.

But do I want my Son to be a Knuckle Dragger like his oldman.
Heck No.
I'll do anything if I could help him get thru college.

My Son has done all the hard work to get him to were he's at now, And has a lot of work ahead of him.
All I can do now is Support his Effort. EH

OB44,

EH:

Imagine your part of the world without Grand Coulee Dam and the Golden Gate Bridge...and all of the marvels that have been built in between.

It's men like you, through your physically demanding and mentally challenging work, that have provided the rest of us a much easier and comfortable life.

With amazement we look at what you have constructed from the blueprints and plans...we scratch our head and wonder how it could come to be...but EH, you know...because you and your co-workers built it!

Thanks EH.

44:

All of the others posting before are right on the mark concerning your thoughts...great post.

Your sons are very fortunate to have you guiding them.

They in turn will most certainly guide their children in a like manner and the world will be better as a result.

Good job 44.

Its very soothing to come to the HSBBW and find posts like this.
Puts the whole picture of life into perfect perspective.

Especially when posters read, listen, and say "yes! thats it,..by jolly he's got it nailed!" and dont spend the next twelve posts picking it to pieces.

I think I'm going to put my feet up and re-read it all again! Thank you everyone. This has been a delightful pleasure!

Great discussion!

observer44 spot on! Thank you.

Found this taped to the wall next to the door over the light switch in my son’s college room.

DREAM

1. Be the person you want to be. "Make the decision to take action and move closer to your Dream. Create daily success habits and surround yourself with information that will empower and inspire you."

2. Use anger in a positive way to get results. "Anger is a normal reaction. It's what you do with anger that makes a difference in your life ... direct your anger towards a goal ... use anger in a positive way to get results ... from anger comes determination ... comes triumph."

3. It starts with a Dream. "Visualize your Dream and make a commitment. Having a Dream is what makes life exciting. Never underestimate the power of a Dream. It will change your life. A Dream gives you the ability to determine your future."

4. Eliminate the confusion. "Find mentors who encourage you. The right information will eliminate confusion. Visualize exactly what you want to be ... and focus on that ... believe in yourself and don't let anything stop you. Reinforce your Dream every day with positive information from tapes, books, and mentors. Each day you will get closer to your Dream. Eliminate the confusion and fears, and make it happen."

5. The greater the struggle, the greater the victory. "Most people allow struggles and fear of failure to stop them. The key is to learn from your struggles and move on. Failures will make you stronger and give you the information you need to reach your Dream. Struggle will prepare you for success. Without struggle there is no success."

6. Follow your passion instead of the dollar. "There's nothing wrong with making money ... but, it's important to focus on your passion instead of the dollar. For me, decisions based on my passion brought me closer to my Dream, while decisions based only on money took me further away. If you focus on what really fulfills you, you will have success. The dollar alone does not bring happiness."

7. Excuses will kill your Dream. "What we're really talking about here is commitment. Until you make a commitment to your Dream, it's not really a Dream ... it's just another fantasy full of excuses. Fantasies don't come true because they're not real, we're not committed to them. When we make commitments, we eliminate excuses and they become Dreams ... and Dreams are definitely real."

8. Prepare for your Dream. "Preparation is what comes from struggle. Knowledge comes from preparation. These are the elements that pave the road to your Dream. If we do not prepare we will not succeed. Set your goals and pursue your Dreams with all your heart. If you miss a goal, don't quit, reset it! You just need to learn more ... step by step you will win!"

9. Focus on your Dream and Never Quit. It is always too soon to quit. If you quit, you can't succeed. By achieving your Dream you will be an inspiration to others. You will set the example and make an enormous impact on the world. Make it happen!"

10. Always have a Dream. "Dreams give us energy to go to new levels. Dreams change lives ... the power of life is in your Dreams!"

Rudy Ruettiger

More great posts! EH loved your post Smokey just saw Rudy on HBO the other day and it is a great movie. Have enjoyed everyone's contribution in this thread. Great topic justbb because you have gotten responses from the heart and those are always the best posts.

This thread should be moved into Golden Threads someday

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You know...was thinking that this thread had gotten overly idealistic...but thenI realized that that...with all the difficulty, stress and struggle in our lives...maybe that's not such a bad thing...to take the questions and answers up a positive idealistic notch...once in a while...and to stay there...is it?


itsagreatgame ,Rollerman , Bum ...Excellent posts...

catchersdad ...Thanks!

RHP05Parent ...and no better place to be for baseball parents the the HSBBW I might add!

123KMOM ,Bum...Baseball is such an amazing labratory for life. Every life lesson played out, and taught between the fences...

PAmom ...Yep, I am in debt to Moonlight! He said it better than I. Failure, redemption, values, dreams, relationships...I get teary eyed just thinking about that movie...

lovethatbaseball ...That's the ticket...support the dream, baseball or not...don't live it through them...the line is often so fine...

theEH ...Remarkable post. The funny thing is that I truly meant that the trades are often better pure careers than many of the white collar ones! As itsagreatgame posted: "Some kids are born academians. Some are born sportsman." The path is not as important as the passion, the honest comittment to excellence, the desire to learn, the satisfaction of having done your best everyday and being there for others. If my son was inclined the direction of the trades (hopefully after baseball and college!) it is a direction I would wholeheartedly support...It is obvious that your projects and your lineage have given you an enlightened perspective as a father and as human being. That 'aint half bad! Thanks.

shortstopmom ...perhaps the most amazing thing about this thread...no slash and burn...yet!

Smokey ...I was going to highlight may favorite points but there is SOOO much good stuff here I'd have to reprint the whole thing...which of course I did and emailed it to my sons! If I found this taped up in son's room, I'd be a proud Parent! Congrats!

ClevelandDad , TPM...Thanks again!

and Woodman...

quote:

They in turn will most certainly guide their children in a like manner and the world will be better as a result.

In the end, that is the goal isn't it? A better world for, and through our children?

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