Keep Varsity together over Summer and Fall or encourage them to play with other travel teams.

I like the new coaches approach.  He should encourage the upper level kids to seek out high level play, and probably better exposwure.  In return, he can keep the younger kids that need more development.  With this approach, in the long run, I think the HS team will have better developed depth and be better off overall

There is no doubt, in my mind that the new coach is into development, and the old coach was into control.

New coach's philosphy is better by a landslide!

totally agree with what you are reading/  new coach has a good outlook. go somewhere you will be challenged and get at-bats.  enjoy

Without knowing more about both coaches, I think its unfair to condemn either. All things being equal, I’d rather players get to play more, but I also believe where they’re playing and who they’re playing for have a bearing on what takes place. Perhaps in the past there wasn’t a good program available, or perhaps the old coach had some inside information about the coaches for the other team and feared for the health of his players.

I’m just sayin’, we’re taking one person’s word about what the truth is, but how do we know he’s not mistaken or exaggerating?

Stats,
I meant this to be a question about philosophies. I respect both coaches and used them as an example. 

I do not mean to have either coach belittled. Just curious about the two different philosophies.

There were a few lengthy threads on this topic some months back.  We have a HS summer program immediately after our regular spring season but no fall ball.  The summer program is a great opportunity for us to get a look at the kids coming up that may be the replacements for the outgoing seniors.  It is also a great time for the "new team" to play some games together and get used to each other.  At the same time, we would love to have our better players challenged by the best competition possible (ie- good club programs).  Keep in mind, though, that we have to have enough numbers for summer HS and be reasonably competitive so that other schools will continue to put us on their summer schedule. 

So, to answer your question, we are on both sides of the fence but numbers and quality often play a factor in the best direction for any given year.  We usually end up doing a lot of juggling and accommodating to the older/better players' preferences and this provides more opportunities for the younger ones.

Originally Posted by BishopLeftiesDad:

I meant this to be a question about philosophies. I respect both coaches and used them as an example. 

I do not mean to have either coach belittled. Just curious about the two different philosophies.

I didn’t mean you were belittling anyone! Its unfortunate though, that that’s what happened, perhaps unintentionally on anyone’s part. It quickly turns into good vs bad rather than one philosophy vs another.

The goal of my son's summer/fall team is to provide players the opportunity to play  against top talent and put those players in front of college coaches for recruiting purposes.  Would the HS coach take on responsibility for recruiting or provide the opportunity to play against top national talent? For many players, this is the goal and not something the HS coach can provide.

My two cents is that our summer\ fall team is a much better team than our High School team, and if you are playing for a good summer travel team that enters quality tournaments like PG, that would be the norm. I agree with Prospect our summer travel team is all about playing against the best and showcasing the boys for recruiting purposes. It may depend somewhat on geography but here in Texas the top players do not play summer ball with their high school team.

I've been exposed to both philosophies, and am firmly a believer that playing for a different QUALITY team in the summer is always a good thing.  It exposes a student athlete to different coaches, different players and a higher level of competition.  That is to the advantage of a young man in many ways, some beyond baseball.  He gets to learn/play under a new coach (kinda like he'll work for more than a few 'bosses' when he gets a job), he gets to interact with new players or those he competes against in high school ball, and that has both competitive and social benefits.  And, playing against the highest level of competition one can handle is always a good thing, IMO.

When I started a summer program in 2001, most of the local high school coaches had their own summer teams and opposed what I was doing.  I tried to work cooperatively with them, and nowadays I've coached a number of their own sons, several have joined me to coach kids in the summer, including a number of players they coach against in the school season, and most of the local high school coaches have become supporters of our program because they realize that we're not trying to replace them, but to supplement them and give each student athlete something they may not be able to do themselves, whether that is playing at a higher level, or having more college recruiting contacts.  Now, we get player referrals from high school coaches, so I guess that may help answer what some of them think.

To give one example, this past summer, my Connie Mack league team was comprised of mostly rising college freshmen with a few age eligible rising college sophomores.  I had ONE high school rising junior, a catcher, on the team.  That junior got to spend the summer playing with guys who were all headed off to play in colleges ranging from Haverford, to UC Davis to the US Air Force Academy.  One of my former guys, a pitcher now at Stanford, even played a game with us after Stanford was done and before his college summer season got underway.  What do you think that young 16 year old catcher got exposed to?  He got to spend the summer as a teammate with guys who have succeeded in becoming college players, something very few high school kids get to do.  He got to learn from them, how to go about his business.  My starting catcher left on June 26th to report to USAFA for basic training, and that young 16 year old took over as my starting catcher.  Just a couple days ago, I was at one of his high school fall ball scrimmages.  His high school coach commented to me "I can't believe the progress that Jake has made since the spring.  I never would have guessed a kid could improve so much in such a short time."

In the right situation, a kid can benefit tremendously by playing for a different team in the summer.

Originally Posted by 06catcherdad:

I've been exposed to both philosophies, and am firmly a believer that playing for a different QUALITY team in the summer is always a good thing.  It exposes a student athlete to different coaches, different players and a higher level of competition.  That is to the advantage of a young man in many ways, some beyond baseball.  He gets to learn/play under a new coach (kinda like he'll work for more than a few 'bosses' when he gets a job), he gets to interact with new players or those he competes against in high school ball, and that has both competitive and social benefits.  And, playing against the highest level of competition one can handle is always a good thing, IMO….

…In the right situation, a kid can benefit tremendously by playing for a different team in the summer.

06catcherdad,

In general and probably in the majority of cases I have to agree, but everyone needs to understand that you qualified what you said, and those qualifiers make all the difference in the world.

Our summer team happens to be a QUALITY team. While it can’t compare to teams that draw nothing but the best from an unlimited area, over the years its held its own in some pretty meaty summer venues, and that makes it the very often the “best” situation for the majority of players.

The reason I say that is, on most HS teams, there aren’t more than a couple top caliber players who’d even have a chance at making the very best summer teams, so what happens to the other 15-20 players? Should they just sit home in a corner and not play, or should they play with the HS team?

Stats, you know who I am and which summer program I run, but a lot of others on here have no idea about who I am or what I do.  That said, you and some of your buddies over on NorCalPreps have been critics of mine often enough that I quit visiting that board as it just wasn't worth it any longer.  I don't want that to happen here, so lets keep it civil.  I've been on HSBBW for a very long time, don't want to have the same experience as over on NCP, OK?

To the topic at hand,  you are correct that the qualifiers I mentioned make an important difference.  That's why I wrote what I posted.  Yes, the high school team you're close to is a very high quality team with an excellent coach whom I have the utmost respect for, but many schools don't have that situation.  Your high school summer team is more like my college development baseball club than you realize, as your coach takes guys he thinks will contribute to his varsity the following year, and I'm guessing that not every kid who wants to play for him in the summer gets that opportunity (and since I don't follow him that closely in summer, I realize I could be wrong about part of this).  What you don't realize is that I take a kid or three every year who probably aren't good enough to play on the teams I run, at least by our reputation and past performance.  I've always enjoyed taking some marginal talent kids and trying to help them and whether they end up at a NAIA, D3 or Pac-12 school, if I can help a kid I get a great deal of satisfaction from every one.  Heck, the team I had this past summer had three, maybe four guys who'll never play beyond Jr. College, does that mean that we shouldn't have taken them on?  I think we gave them the best baseball experience they've ever had to date, and I know both they and their parents are greatly appreciative. 

While I'm not being very articulate, the point I'm trying to make is that more kids have opportunities than many people realize.  Often, people think that 'such and such' a team only takes the best players from the area.  Sometimes that is the case, but more often than people realize, if a less talented kid asks to play, he can find an opportunity on teams that would raise some eyebrows.  What I look for is a good kid from a good family who hopefully is at least an OK baseball player.  He should be a good student, a good character kid (No J.Q. types, you know who I mean), and aspire to play college baseball.  If he fits all those qualities and we have roster room, chances are that kid will get to play with us.  So, I think every kid who wants to play with a top level team should at least investigate the possibility instead of assuming he is not good enough.  As for those other kids you allude to that may not be good enough, yes they should play at the highest level they can, whether it be for their high school summer team, a lower level competitive summer club or just rec ball if that is their level.

We need to let KIDS be KIDS.  So often, parents get too caught up in the chase for a college opportunity and become prime targets of people for whom youth baseball is just another business. Too often, kids get burned out by chasing their parents dream, which is not THEIR dream.   Find the RIGHT fit with the RIGHT club, whatever that club may be.

By the way, Stats, remember that Rio kid who got in trouble with his football coach last fall because he went to the Sr. Fall Classic with me?  Well, I took some heat from you guys over on NCP over the debacle his HS football coach turned it into, but that fine young man is now about to start his college baseball career at the University of California, and will be playing in the Big West Conference.  It all worked out fine in the end, and they got one heck of a fine young man and very talented baseball player.  All truly is well that ended well.

Originally Posted by 06catcherdad:

Stats, you know who I am and which summer program I run, but a lot of others on here have no idea about who I am or what I do.  That said, you and some of your buddies over on NorCalPreps have been critics of mine often enough that I quit visiting that board as it just wasn't worth it any longer.  I don't want that to happen here, so lets keep it civil.  I've been on HSBBW for a very long time, don't want to have the same experience as over on NCP, OK?

You’re wrong! I don’t know who you are, and FWIW don’t care. As for the NorCal board, those folks over there couldn’t be called “buddies” of mine in the longest stretch of anyone’s imagination. If you’ve found me to be critical of you, it wasn’t for anything personal, since no matter what you think, I don’t know who you are!

To the topic at hand,  you are correct that the qualifiers I mentioned make an important difference.  That's why I wrote what I posted.  Yes, the high school team you're close to is a very high quality team with an excellent coach whom I have the utmost respect for, but many schools don't have that situation.  Your high school summer team is more like my college development baseball club than you realize, as your coach takes guys he thinks will contribute to his varsity the following year, and I'm guessing that not every kid who wants to play for him in the summer gets that opportunity (and since I don't follow him that closely in summer, I realize I could be wrong about part of this). 

What often happens is, people don’t take into account the difference in the programs, and then make a decision based on what they “believe” rather than what they “know”.

I’m afraid I don’t know a great deal about the summer program because they travel too much for me on my fixed income. But I do know I’ve never heard of even one player who wanted to play for his summer team that wasn’t allowed, as long as they were going to that school, and were expected to be on the V the following season. The younger team is made up of incoming Fr, kids from last season’s JV team that didn’t get a whole lot of PT, and a few that serve double duty on both teams for some reason.

But the bottom line of it all is, our coach is totally anal about helping as many kids get opportunities to improve as possible. That doesn’t necessarily mean playing time in games, but it does mean a lot of individual help in practices, which is really more important than anything for a “bubble” player.

What you don't realize is that I take a kid or three every year who probably aren't good enough to play on the teams I run, at least by our reputation and past performance.  I've always enjoyed taking some marginal talent kids and trying to help them and whether they end up at a NAIA, D3 or Pac-12 school, if I can help a kid I get a great deal of satisfaction from every one.  Heck, the team I had this past summer had three, maybe four guys who'll never play beyond Jr. College, does that mean that we shouldn't have taken them on?  I think we gave them the best baseball experience they've ever had to date, and I know both they and their parents are greatly appreciative. 

Since I honestly don’t know you, I’m not in any position to comment other than to say if that’s what you do, good on ya.

While I'm not being very articulate, the point I'm trying to make is that more kids have opportunities than many people realize.  Often, people think that 'such and such' a team only takes the best players from the area.  Sometimes that is the case, but more often than people realize, if a less talented kid asks to play, he can find an opportunity on teams that would raise some eyebrows.  What I look for is a good kid from a good family who hopefully is at least an OK baseball player.  He should be a good student, a good character kid (No J.Q. types, you know who I mean), and aspire to play college baseball.  If he fits all those qualities and we have roster room, chances are that kid will get to play with us.  So, I think every kid who wants to play with a top level team should at least investigate the possibility instead of assuming he is not good enough.  As for those other kids you allude to that may not be good enough, yes they should play at the highest level they can, whether it be for their high school summer team, a lower level competitive summer club or just rec ball if that is their level.

Now you’ve got me completely at a loss. Maybe its because I don’t judge kids by anything other than the way they perform on the field and how they interact with me. The kid you referred to is at minimum one of the most talented players I’ve ever run across, and never treated me with anything other than great respect. I know he had his share of “issues”, but I haven’t come across may who didn’t.

As for those kids not good enough to make one of the “top” teams in the area, there are literally thousands in an area as large as ours, and there just aren’t enough good programs unaffiliated with school programs to accommodate them all.

By the way, Stats, remember that Rio kid who got in trouble with his football coach last fall because he went to the Sr. Fall Classic with me?  Well, I took some heat from you guys over on NCP over the debacle his HS football coach turned it into, but that fine young man is now about to start his college baseball career at the University of California, and will be playing in the Big West Conference.  It all worked out fine in the end, and they got one heck of a fine young man and very talented baseball player.  All truly is well that ended well.

Again, I don’t know who you are, don’t remember any kid who got in trouble with his football coach, and certainly don’t remember being part of any group of “guys” who gave you heat over on NCP! Its hard enough for me to keep up with what goes on on our team because I simply don’t intermingle a lot with anyone.

Stats,  I owe you an apology.  I was confusing you with Mr. Splitty, who has given me a lot of grief over there, and he does know who I am.  I kinda lump him, you, B&N all together.  Please accept my apologies.  As for JQ, yes he can play, but there was a reason that OSU revoked their scholarship offer, and it was completely due to 'character' issues.

To the rest of you, I apologize for unintentionally derailing/highjacking the subject.  Back to the topic at hand now.

06catcherdad,

No need to apologize to me. I knew there was a mistake being made and didn’t take it personally, so its no big deal.

As for losing the ‘ship, I don’t know, and unless you have personal knowledge that comes directly from someone on that school’s scholarship committee, you might want to be verrrry careful about casting aspersions on someone’s character. But to tell the truth, none of that matters to me. As I said, every time I saw him perform he went 100%, and never once did he treat me with anything less than great respect. I don’t try to act as judge and jury about any kid because Lord knows I’ve done things in my life that I wish I could change.

BishopLeftiesDad,

I've stumbled across a unique situation that I think is worthy of mention on your topic.

Our American Legion coach has put together a travel and showcase team from his 3 feeder high schools which is deep in talent.  He is well connected across the region and has a former college coach helping him .  These guys know baseball.  My youngest son is on this team, and we just played our first showcase.  The Legion coach is very well known in our parts, and has sent out introductory notes about our team to all his college coach contacts.  On our team, the coach moves the players around at different positions and playing time is not an issue as we are only carrying 14.  BTW - We went 4-0 this weekend and more than held our own against some good teams. More importantly, college coaches came to see their team play.

So, this an attempt to give the Legion team time together prior to next summer.  They are getting showcase experience at a regional and local level, but they will go back to their respective high schools for that season next Spring.   I have to say, there is a lot of value to this approach, and I wouldn't be too surprised to see more of this in the future.   I've often been critical of how inflexible American Legion has been.  This is one example of how an American Legion team can actually use its strengths to its advantage..

Thanks Fenway,

We have a similar American Legion here in Napolean Ohio. It is in a low population area so it can feed from many HS. This allows them to get the best players from many schools and is always a competitive team. The coach is well known and has had several HS players drafted and most go on to college. The Legion teams here in Central Ohio usually can pull from only one HS.

I know it has been mentioned here by a couple of you, but I feel in these discussions, many times it is focused on what a benefit it is for the best players. While this is true, I think some of the next tier players really benefit as well. My youngest while a decent ball player, excels in a different sport, and was never willing to take away form that to do what it would take to be a high level Baseball player. He always made the school team and for a while in MS he was a starter. When he got to HS it was pretty clear after his spring Season he was going to have a long row to hoe and playing him with his teammates he was not going to see a lot of playing time. A lot of parents were shocked when we stayed with a lower level travel team that he had been with since he was 11. Since this was our third child we knew that while he would get bigger his real groth spurt would not be until sometime during his Junior year. On this team he received good coaching and became a better catcher. I am not sure he would have lasted this long with out that choice. He was able to play with kids of his skill level and slightly higher. Was their bumps along the way? Yes. But today when people see him catch and hit they talk about how much he has approved. I am not sure that would have happened playing on a school team, in the summer. He probably would have been the third catcher early on and playing time would have been sparse.

I wish I could say that he got so much better that he came back and now a starter. But alas, I am watching the last days of him playing baseball. He chose not to play for his HS team last spring and played his last season of Summer ball with his travel team and is taking his one last hurrah playing this Fall.

My advice to parents to those that have children such as my youngest: Play at the level or just above the level your skill allows. Play on a team that has good teaching and coaching, be it Travel on a National level, Travel on a local level, or even Rec ball, if that is appropriate. You don't know when it will end, I would sure hate to look back and think it ended because it was not fun anymore, and they did not like sitting on the bench. I am so happy that my son is going out still having a good time and will have good memories of his days of baseball.

Get to all the games you can. AND ABOVE ALL ENJOY! Celebrate there victories and support them when things do not go as planned.

I believe each team may have players at many different levels. And while it can be difficult and a lot of work, it may be in the best interest of the player to find a team at the right level where they can face appropriate competition and get better. You hear it here all the time when talking about college recruiting. Go where they love you. Why not do the same for your summer and fall ball. If they love you, you won't be spending too much time on the bench.