Keeping your own stats

Don't keep them in college...the university keeps them so I see no reason too.

In HS I kept them for myself so I could track my son's progress...so I'd know at least about what he was hitting and what his pitching stats were. Our coach didn't really keep them anyways and eventually came to me for numbers. After seeing stats from other teams turned in at league meeting time, it reminded me of LL. That is, how could our team that won the league have such mediocre stats compared to the other teams we had whomped on...even those with bad records.

Stats at the HS and below level are so innacurate in many cases I don't trust them at all.

In HS, the stats for leaders were posted each week in the paper, at the end of the year each player was given a print out of his stats.
The SID at schools get paid for taking them and posted after each game (the automatic scoreboard)along with the recaps of each game.
What I found interesting in college is that more importance is placed upon how many pitches were thrown for strikes (something we never thought about). We only check his era for home vs away games as well as conference.
Justbaseball,
I had found that keeping score while son is pitching had stopped the constant pacing.
Funny story, Kris Harvey's dad former ML pitcher Bryan Harvey told us he often had to leave when his son pitched because he felt he didn't want the other parents or fans to see him get sick!

Keeping a book is more of a hobby to me - I just like to do it.

I use it as a coaching tool for purposes of talking hitting and pitching. Counts, locations and pitches. I don't concern myself with averages but more about situations. Have used it both in HS and little league.

I kept my own scorebook this year so that my husband, who was not able to attend some games do to his work schedule, would get to see the game unfold and the different situations that took place during the game. I added side notes, such as diving catch, barehanded, got him from his knees, line drive, hit it hard, or throw from short was 5 feet above 1B head. When there are 10 games in week you tend to forget the details of each game. I also keep it for my son to look back on someday.

My wife has always kept our sons' stats in high school. Our coach refuses to release stats until the end of the season. Reasons:

1. Too much emphasis on some numbers (BA, RBI, HR) and nothing that shows moving up runners, sacrifices, defense, base running etc.

2. The only numbers he wants his team to focus upon are wins and losses.

3. It might let an opposing team have a little more scouting info.

When a recruiting form requested stats when my oldest son was a sophmore, that's when the record-keeping started. Our stats are officially kept by an assistant coach who is correctly very conservative, and my wife quickly became just as hard core-hits are clean and legit. Every year her numbers are very close to the official ones.

By the way, hasn't everyone run into a team somewhere that it seems everyone hits .400, but the team loses constantly?

True story told to me by a sports writer:

The mother of a kid that played for a team notorious for several seemingly high averages for players on marginal (at best) teams called the paper to complain that her son (a junior) didn't get mentioned in a writeup when he had 4 hits. The reporter looked back and the kid had 1 hit and 3 fielder's choices.

A line I have used with juries to denigrate the use of statistics: "If you have 1 foot in a bucket of fire, and 1 foot in a bucket of ice, on average, you are comfortable."

I always wondered why the scorekeeper's kid had the highest batting average!

Stats are a funny animal. They can a very important aspect of the game because many awards are given to those with the best stats. On the other hand they can be meaningless because they are frequently just an inaccurate description of the end result of a very complicated event. I was the official scorekeeper for my son’s high school team and for his summer team. I also maintained two baseball websites, one for the high school and one for the summer team. I kept the books because I was asked to keep the books. A coach once told me the reason he wanted me to keep the books was because he knew I would be honest. I was also one of the few parents that knew how to calculate the different aspects of stats and had the time to do it. I also had turbostats and Palm scorekeeper to keep stats and digital cameras to take pictures for the website. For some reason I liked to combine technology and sports.
Those parents who have average players with great stats tend to quote every stat available. The parent of the best ball players tend to put less emphasis on the stats. There is an ugly side of stats I don’t like. For example: While watching the MILB “AAA” all-star game last evening, BJ Upton made an error on his throw to first. The announcer said this was his second error of the game and his 30th of the season up to the all-star break. They even flashed this up on the screen. It almost appeared the announcers were trying to point out how bad he was.
My wife knows very little about the game of baseball yet when our son played college baseball she would buy a $1.00 scorecard and try to score each game. I think it was more “doodling” than scorekeeping. To her I think it took the place of biting her fingernails.
Fungo

I guess the first question for AParent that pops in my mind is "What is it to you?" The second is "Is it really any of your business?" What difference does it make if a parent keeps a scorebook, reads the paper, whittles wood or knits during the game?

To answer the question, at times (but not always) I keep a book because of all or some of the following:
My son likes to look them over afterwards
As a pitcher, he likes to refesh his mind on what a batter did previously
Coach doesn't keep one
Coach has a player keep a book, but the player doesn't know how to keep a book
My son likes to know his stats, so that over the long run he can track his improvement
From my perspective, it helps me track the count, outs, inning, score for those occasions when the scoreboard is not being kept or is chronically inaccurate
Etc....

For me, it's just a hobby. I like working with numbers. Also, I don't have to wonder what so and so's BA or ERA is. Baseball is game that lends itself to stats - think about how many different baseball stat categories there are. They even come up with new ones from time to time like blown saves, quality starts and OPS. The stats may or may not give you an accurate picture of what's happening, and most players should know this. Last week at PGWWBC my son's team was one hit in a game. His first AB he crushed a line drive to the gap in left center that the CF backhanded on the warning track. His last AB he hit a flare just over the 2B and in front of the RF for our only hit. He commented after the game that it was weird that the first one was just an out and the other one was a hit.

I began scorekeeping, like many of you, when my son was in Little League. It was merely a fulfillment of duty assigned to parents on a rotational basis. Through the years, I came to enjoy the process and continued through many seasons of travel ball. Maybe it's the inner engineer in me who need's to translate baseball, the art, into baseball, the science. I also found keeping a book to be effective in maturing me into the silently supportive Dad at games.

I had the privilege of scoring a perfect game in a national tournament when my boy was behind the plate. Coach didn't even realize it until I explained why he should not sub the pitcher out for the final inning. Not often, but every once in a while when my son gets in a hitting funk, he'll pull out an old book and remember past successes to help him visualize future successes. ...and my notational editorial comments usually ellicit a laugh or two, or spawn a "...remember when..." conversation.

Stats...? Yeah, I've done those, got the tee shirt and moved on. Don't really care about those any more. Now it's more of a learning tool for my son to understand pitch counts and hitting/base running situations. ...to study tendancies of opposing pitchers and coaches. ...and more importantly for him, being a catcher, to remember which pitches he may have called against certain batters that ended up somewhere beyond the 380 marker in left center.

I don't think I'll continue keeping score beyond high school. I won't be able to get to all of his games. There will be a legion of men (and women...?) far more capable than I to keep the records and teach from them. I look forward to lots of new memories, but will have to find a new way to document them for future "...remember when..." moments.

Funny thing--my guys never worried about stats--they were more concerned with "did we win or lose?"

We also don't let the kids on our travel team to worry about stats--we don't keep stats--we keep a book but dont work up the stats-- funny thing though, we all know who pitched the big game, who made the big play, who had the big hits

TR has a great but understated point: The players ALWAYS know who the best players are, 100% of the time. Numbers can lie, but the eye doesn't.

Figures lie and liers figure.

I once had a parent come up to me and hand me his sons stats from the preceding summer. I was polite said thanks never looked at them.

I keep a book during the game because I can't sit still. It makes me focus. We have a parent of a former HS player do our official book. So he has no reason to "pad" anyone's stats.
At the end of the season, our AVG.s matched exeactly.
The only difference was I was a little tougher on our guys defensively (I gave players errors when our official scorekeeper scored them as opponents hits).

I have posted this before, but it bears repeating in a stats thread....I have umpired games and then the next day I have read the write up in the local papers.......

Most of the write ups are just info supplied by the winning team......I have seen players be listed as going 4-4 when I know they went 1-4 and the 1/2/3 hitters thrown by pitchers who gave up 7/8/9 "real" hits......I often wonder if they are actually writing about the game I did......

HS stats are, in the words of Winston Churchill, "History is the propaganda of the winners".......

TRHit,

quote:

Funny thing--my guys never worried about stats--they were more concerned with "did we win or lose?"

I find this hard to believe. What age player are you talking about? If they are high school age players the media usually reports stats when doing an article on players. Why would your guys or parents be any different than any other players unless you prohibit parents from keeping stats? Stats, as bad and as inaccurate as they are, are as much a part of organized baseball as hot dogs and the national anthem.
Fungo

Accurate stats can be a useful tool for a coach. Coaches have their biases also. It is pretty easy to overlook the 3 line singles by the kid you are not that fond of while seeing the 3 hard hit fly outs by the kid you think is going somewhere. You can maintain your biases over a whole season sometimes but not if you look at the stats also. There's a place for a coach's judgement and there's a place for hard facts.

Perception can be very misleading. At our all-star meeting the coach of the all-star team was telling me how good of a hitter and how good of a pitcher one of my players was. I kept my mouth shut because he was the only player from my team who was going to make that team. The facts were that the kid didn't hit well all year except at the the end of games when the weaker pitchers were brought in against us and that he was only an effective pitcher against the weaker hitting teams because he had a very flat fastball.

Perceptions can be very misleading and they need to be checked by reviewing stats. Stats can also be very misleading and they need to be checked by solid judgement.

I just like to keep the scorebook. The HS coach doesn't keep the book very well. And the local sports writer calls me when he isn't at games to get the highlights.

FUNGO

I am not talking parents and what they do in the stands--I am talking my kids on the field and in the dugout with us--- we are a team and we win or lose as a team -- and we do it our way

I don't even total up the info at the end of a game--all we worry about is the final score

As for my own kids they were the same way--stats are just numbers and can be manipulated--my sons knew how good they were and stats had nothing to do with making or breaking them

It may sound strange but it is true--in fact we dont even post "stats" at our showcases--the coaches and scouts have the info but we do not post info for the general public-- it is not a competition of "I am better than you" -- it is all about doing your best and not worrying about the other guy--if you begin worrying about what the other guy is doing then you are not concentrating on what you should be doing.

Texan

It's nothing to me except pure curiosity. If it's a hobby - great, everyone needs a hobby. If it's to help your son - great, we all try to help our sons. If it is to be a @(&$to the coach about playing time - that's your business, not mine.

Folks in the last category will never tell us that, so therefore the responses I get will be from people who do it for other reasons - perhaps some I've never even considered.

If someones truly thinks it's none of my business they won't respond, which is their perogative. This thread was about learning more about our baseball cohorts - nothing more. Like I said in the beginning - just curiousity.

For what it is worth: (Very little!)

• I worry about players worrying about their stats MORE than I worry about parents. In my opinion, it is the single worse thing that can destroy team chemistry.
• Many if not most communities have people that are "stats freaks" who will gladly volunteer their time to keep stats. This is, AS LONG AS THE COACHES, PLAYERS AND PARENTS LEAVE THEM ALONE. We are fortunate to have a gentleman do this. His only rule is that his OFFICIAL OPINION will not be changed and so don't question him. I messed up this year and did. I almost lost his services.
• I understand parents wanting to keep stats. I resent their opinion that they are right on whether a hit was a hit or not and that we are wrong. Our opinion might not be better than theirs but ours counts. Therefore, when the awards banquet occurs and we give out a game by game printout complete with career stats etc. don't question them. HECK IT IS A GIFT FOR THE KID FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE AND COST US HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO DO. ONe further remark, questioning the stats that a coach has for a player can be akin to encouraging your son to be disloyal to the coach. Think about that! Well John John, Coach B screwed you again.
• We turn all of our stats in via the internet. We are very through on this. The stats for our team this year are: http://prepsports3.stltoday.com/baseball/05/stats/overall266.shtm The St. Louis Post Dispatch does an outstanding job with these stats. BTW, in conference, since we are so competitive with each other, if one team tries to "pad their stats," the word WILL GET OUT!

wELL ENOUGH ON STATS. THE MOST IMPORTANT STAT IN MY OPINION IS W'S AND L'S

AParent ...

We have kept scorebooks over the years for several reasons depending on the level of play:

>>Little League ... hubby was head coach and inexperienced "official scorekeepers" for the team were not often "fluent" in scorekeepese; I kept a book as a back-up for him.

>>Travel and tournament ball ... hubby was assistant coach; I kept team book as well as one for us because head coach was adamant that players not be privy to the stats or scorekeeping (so as to avoid the "problems" associated with the knowledge.) and hubby wanted to have access to game details after a game/series etc. At one tournament, I was the team's official scorekeeper and had three sheets going in some of the games because none of the other parents knew how to keep score, so they couldn't help.

>>High school ... kept scorebook for entertainment purposes. Did not use for stats, just for recapping of games etc. Kept score of every inning of every game in 4 years.

>>College ball ... kept score for the fun of it and as a way to let parents (who came late or couldn't make games at all) know what had happened in the game. Never kept stats.

>>Pro ball ... keep score for the games he pitches in, whether we are there or whether we are listening on the internet; if we are at a series (such as during our midwest trip this year) I keep a "casual scorebook" for games our son doesn't throw in but a very detailed sheet for his games.

Bottom line ... we don't use the extra book for stats ... we use it for reviewing the games, the situations, etc. It is a lot of fun for me ... I even use PEN instead of pencil (tho I do carry correction fluid with me)

AParent,
I understand your curiosity at asking the question. I used to think they were important, but after not one coach or scout ever asking, I got the impression it didn't matter. In college it's basically done for you an hour after the game.
I think parents in general just want to follow the progress of their kids, and I hope the ones that are fanatical about it are as fanatical with keeping progress on GPAs.
What gets me is the parent that takes the stats they keep and puts them in conspicuous places for others to see, thinking that this will get them noticed. Or throwing them out in conversation when trying to up one on a parent. I especially get a kick out of the parent that often refers to the BEST stats, not the latest.
Edit note:
In college stats are used to identify those for year end rankings for publications and conferences. I am more impressed with the stats from the ones who regularly pitch or hit in the tougher conferences. Take Prepsters son for example, my hats off to him, I know how tough the hitting is in that conference. Same with HRs. A hitter who has belted 25,26 a year in a top conference, (for example Kris Harvey) against tougher pitching impresses me as well as batters close or at 400, eg. Shane Robinson from FSU.
But this is how I interpret stats. Not necessarily right or wrong.

Son got a homerun at a high school game this past season and another player's parents asked my husband how many that made, total high school years.... My husband said they looked surprised and skeptical when he said we hadn't kept track for all 4 years.......and they must have been....because I came along an inning later and they asked me the same question....and I gave them the same response....didn't know son's 4 year homerun total...

But....TPM is so right........we always knew the GPA....it was very important to us....and college coaches seemed to place more importance on the GPA.... than home run totals....and I guess that's why we kept track of one and not the other.....

Home Runs are related to size of field--GPA's are not

One of our local kids was being recruited .The dad gave the coach "his" stats.When the coach followed up and the dads stats did not match up with the official teams stats it threw up a red flag,made the coach uneasy and the recruiting stopped.The sad thing is the kid was good enough that he did not need to pad his stats.I did find it strange because no one ever asked my son for his stats,they wanted to see him play.

I've kept a book on most teams my kids played on for the same reasons that have been mentioned by others. This past year I kept a book (more out of habit than anything else) during the high school season. I told everyone who asked that I was not doing stats from the books, and I had no intention of doing so.

But... at the end of year banquet the coach handed out a set of smudged and scribbled-over stats to every player which were [cough] obviously inaccurate. So I took my book, curled up in a corner for a couple of hours, double checking the numbers, and found out that:
a) The son of the major financial booster of the team had four at bats mysteriously disappear from his total, and a routine fielder's choice scored as a hit. It was just enough to boost his average slightly over the Mendoza line.
b) The player who got the least playing time (and who was the butt of some slighting comments by the coach at the banquet) had a number of phantom AB's added to his total - all outs -- reducing his average to below the booster's son's (actual) average.
c) The entire set of numbers wasn't even close to accurate - the total of runs listed by player exceeded the team's actual total by ten or so, etc. (Suggested Rule 1: if you're not going to bother to do it right, don't xerox it and hand it out to everyone.)

The thing most people don't realize is that if a scorebook is kept correctly (in the technical sense) there really isn't a whole lot of subjective decisions that can change the numbers. Scoring a batted ball as a hit vs. error or fielder's choice is about it, and most of those decisions aren't that hard. Even more, the number of hit vs. error decisions to make on any one player usually isn't enough to significantly affect the averages. That's why, without even seeing the team book this year, I could tell where the stats were wrong, and in most cases, why.

In years past, when I was keeping stats, I found they were generally useful to deflect parents' criticism of the coach. That is, the coaches' decisions usually were suppported by the numbers, and I could show the irate parent that. This year, I think I'm gonna keep the numbers to myself...

I kept track of averages a couple years ago in LL from the official scorebooks. I checked it once about halfway through the season and then went from there at the end of the season just for the kids who had a shot at all-stars. The son of the manager of the all-star team "I won't pick my son unless he deserves it." was hitting just under .200. Amazingly his average was just over .200 according to another dad who did the stats to protect his kid from being passed over. A quick check showed an error at the beginning of the season had turned into a hit since the middle of the season. The other kid had hit poorly the first part of the season and then crushed the ball the rest of the season finishing around .400 and didn't even make the second team. Both of the kids were on a team that had the second best pitcher in the league on their team and faced the best pitcher fewer times than any other team so although the second players average could have been a bit inflated the less than .200 average was also inflated.

Our HS coach believed in keeping accurate stats. Having a parent or cosch do teh stats did not constitute accurate stats. We paid from our concession money someone to keep stats 35 dollars per game, and that person was not a parent.
Many teams knew we did this, so there was never any question as to whether the biggest booster contributor's son was getting inflated stats or not.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Funny thing--my guys never worried about stats--they were more concerned with "did we win or lose?"

We also don't let the kids on our travel team to worry about stats--we don't keep stats--we keep a book but dont work up the stats-- funny thing though, we all know who pitched the big game, who made the big play, who had the big hits

But do you know who has been steady, but maybe doesn't have the game winning hits? But the guy who keeps you in distance of the win? The guy who got on base, so someone else could get the big RBI's?

Those who don't keep stats rely on perception. And perception is wrong more often than it is right.

And I have to disagree with hokieone. Well kept stats don't lie. But the kids may judge one kid to be a "hoss" based on his reputation coming to the team. When the hoss hasn't earned that reputation on that team.

Coaches should keep stats. If they are truly that good and just "know" the stats, then they will have confirmation. But most coaches are going to get surprised.

Perhaps you are that good, TRhit. Most aren't. And many (not all) of those use the excuse of "I know whose good, I don't need stats" as an excuse to do what they want to do without having to justify their choices.

I have seen a coach continue to put a kid at SS and at cleanup when the kid had a fielding average of .670 and a batting average of .200. And no, my kid wasn't sitting and he didn't play SS. So no ax to grind here. It was sickening listening to the coach brag on the SS. And it wasn't his son either.

This is an interesting discussion. In youth baseball, especially prior to high school, I don't think there is any need whatsoever to keep stats. Keeping a scorebook during the game is important, but compiling the stats as the season progresses is completely unnecessary. Youth ball is for teaching how to perform baseball skills, teaching situational baseball, and teaching how to handle the ups and downs that occur during a baseball game and season.

Most HS coaches will have somebody doing the book and will usually have to report cumulative stats for media purposes and or for all-conference, etc. Parents who keep stats on their own seem to do it for a variety of reasons, as have been posted by several in this thread. I would guess that parents have biases for their own kids and against some specific others, but it doesn't really matter if it is their own scorebook that they use for their own pleasure.

When my son was a freshman in college he decided that he no longer wanted to see his stats or any articles/website stories with his name in them. I never talk to him about his stats. During this past season, his sophomore season, I mentioned after about 50+ innings that he hadn't given up a home run yet. The next week he gave up a homer in the first inning......of course it was my fault!!!! Never again will I mention anything about his stats when talking to him!!!!!!

During hs my son always kept his own personal stats, not as detailed as colleges do, but the basics. He'd come to me right before the hs season with a little piece of paper typed out outlining his season goals and I'd tuck it away for him til the end of the season when he'd pull it out and see how he did. Sometimes he'd have things like "at least 1 hit against so and so pitcher" or "want to make 1st team all-area". They're now tucked away in his scrapbook for him to look at on occasion. It just seemed to be something he'd share with me on one of those mom and son nights at home and not something he shared with anyone else.
Grafeful made me think of a season ender that gives me a good laugh. In his last yr. of LL, the night before the big playoff game, the coach had a meeting with the parents and players and told everyone that the yr. before my son had told him he was going to be the MVP of the league his last yr in LL and that he had not struck out once the whole season. My son was so embarrassed and we hadn't even realized he hadn't struck out at all. The next night, he did get the MVP award but he also struck out twice in that game being pitched by one of his good friends. Being alittle supersticious, I guess, he never ever wanted a coach to use him as their poster boy again! But the picture I have of him holding that MVP award is priceless! A smile to light up the world. As for me keeping stats, I will show my ignorance and have a good laugh 'cause he still does - I made a comment one night about how many hits he'd had during a game and he just looked at me like I was nuts. I never knew until hs that if a ball was caught it didn't count as a hit! I thought if you hit the ball, you had a hit. Good thing I never kept his stats! He still brings that up once in a while and has a good laugh at my expense.

May I add one more thing--I know college coaches who do not put stats on their team website because they do not want the players worrying about them

TEXAN

We darn well know who is the steady player, who got the hit, who got the big hit etc

Remember I said we do not keep stats---we DO keep a book, we do keep pitch counts, balls and strikes, fast balls, curves etc---but we do not do a stat sheet and not one of our kids have ever come over and asked "how many hits did I have?"

TRHit,
I see you have 3,816 plate appearances on the HSBBW. If we were to keep stats on posters we woud see that you have....
Fungo

You know something--until you and DIBBLE bring it up I have no idea how many posts I have--not that it even matters

quote:

Well kept stats don't lie.

Maybe, but they can't tell you everything either. When my son was a soph in HS he had good stats, but a won-loss record that wasn't good. He got the starts against the best teams in the league with 2-1, 3-2, 3-0 losses to state tournament teams. If you didn't know the team, just by looking at the stats, you'd think he wasn't very good. Fact is, his soph season hardened him and made him a much better pitcher his later years. He's the only one still playing baseball from his HS team.

IMHO, stats, while they can be used for a lot of things, are overrated. What about the guy who has a 4 great outings then one bad one. Overall ERA goes up, but doesn't tell the whole story.

True story. Friend of my son's playing in a 2A league had a great outing with a ton of K's. Looked good on paper. Upon further review ( and no offense to anyone) it was against a very small mountain school who couldn't field a whole team and had two girls in the line-up.

Frank F has a point that pitching stats can use some backgroud information. But the focus should be more on ERA than on W's or L's, IMHO. The pitcher can't control the W or L. He has much more control on his ERA or walks allowed.

A batter or fielder has control over the factors affecting their stats.

Frank,
I am chuckling at your post. DK as a sophmore, junior was put in the toughest situations, the big games. Coming from a team that was "fair" and up against good competition, he always had a losing record until his senior year, finally had more wins than loses.
My son's summer coach never kept stats (as far as the players knew). He went by instinct. At 63 he could tell you who hit what and who pitched what two weeks after a game. Old school worked for him. He also had a philosophy for recruiters, if yu are interested come see the player for yourself!
Stats in college are a necessary evil. I always noticed that when my son went up against a pitcher, their ERA's were pretty well matched. So are the batting averages against left and right handed batters, etc. Strategy.