Kids and Curveballs:

I taught all of my kids how to throw a CB at 9 but let them know that I wouldn't call it in a game until they were 14-15. I also taught them to throw a CU at 9 and explained why we would throw these in every practice and game. It has worked for us.

Like Redbird, I gave my youth baseball players an alternative - the changeup...

I told my son that I wanted him to wait until he was old enough - which I defined as having the hair on his legs dark (that he could see and measure ) He is 16 now - and has a good curve!!!! It doesn't take long to learn to throw - but it takes a lifetime to master

My son was taught how to throw a curveball at 15, but did not start throwing it on a consistent basis until his sophomore year. He threw a change.

I think kids should learn to master the fastball and changeup before even practicing throwing curve balls. Throwing curves may or may not hurt the arm, but I believe it detracts from the development of a quality fastball.

Here is a link to a column I had written about this subject:

http://www.gtathletic.com/curveballs_forkids.pdf

I agree with all of the above, but add that there is another pitch that all young pitchers should know.

Something that is often overlooked is the difference between the 4-seam grip and the 2-seam grip on the fastball. There is no added arm stress because both are thrown exactly the same way -- but they behave very diffently. The 4-seamer tends to stay straighter and maybe be 2-4 mph faster, while the 2-seamer will sink or tail.

That is the case at any level, but in youth leagues the different action you get with the 2-seamer vs. 4-seamer is even more pronounced, because most youth leagues use a raised seam baseball. (For HS and up, you usually don't see the raised-seam balls.)

One of the happy benefits of this is that once your kid pitcher realizes that he has two different pitches to use, and one of them moves some, he can take signs and shake off pitch calls and do all the things that he wants to do to feel like a big leaguer without feeling like he needs a curve ball. This is a lot of the fun for your average 9-year-old.

As a youth rec and travel coach for many years, I forbade my pitchers to throw curves until age 14 and even then used them only sparingly. I heard many tales of other coaches who tried to ban curves only to have the kids work on them on their own, or the parents bark about how the policy was putting their sons at a disadvantage.

Explaining that the two fastballs were two different pitches, and letting the pitchers see the very real results of using both of them in different situations seemed to eliminate all of that difficulty for us.

By age 11-12, our guys worked on developing a change-up, so now they had THREE options -- but still no curves.

A final note is that for some reason that I've never been able to figure out, lefties get more action on the 2-seamer than righties. Our top righty could bust you on the fists with his 2-seamer, but our lefty's 2-seamer would fishtail sharply down and way from a right-handed batter.

My son learned at 9-10 and may not be a college pitcher today if it wasn't for his CB. He lived off CBs but he also worked on his FB and CU. He never had an overpowering FB but he could locate all his pitches. Many of the overpowering guys have dropped off the face of the earth and no longer play baseball. A few don't pitch anymore but play other positions.
I guess I approached things opposite to most. I saw the hard throwers as a greater risk at the early ages as more likely to injure themselves than a properly thrown CB.

Fungo, really good topic to discuss. My son, 14, has taken pitching instruction for about 5 years. Maybe 18 months ago his instructor taught him the proper mechanics of a curveball, so that he knew how to throw it properly, but not in immediate preparation to use it. This past summer, we gave him the OK to throw a couple a game. So he liked to roll one off in the first inning, which gave the opposing batters something to worry about, then maybe one more in a good situation to throw. By fall, we bumped him up to about a dozen a game, but he was also playing 15U. He is tickling 80 on his FB, and as a lefty his 2 seam moves, so we are focusing on the change.
A head ump at a local league has coached for 30 years, and he always tells of a phenom he kicked off his 12 year old team because he insisted on throwing curves, went to another team, and had to have surgery 2 years later.

It's the main reason I despise Little League baseball and all the attention it gets.

I agree with grateful. First get the fastball mechanics down, building some command with the fastballs and changeup (which is thrown with fastball mechanics). If this has been accomplished by 14YO, then start learning the hook.

And even then, use it sparingly. Even if no damage is done to the elbow, too many curves will inhibit the development of the fastball.

I could relate stories about 15yo who never threw CBs and had surgery at 15-16.
I don't think you can link the injury to CBs. I personally coul site several instances of both FB guys who have arm problems. I put it down to poor pitching advice from coaches who know very little about throwing a baseball. I see more catchers with arm problems who do not throw CBs. Many of my son's teammates throw CBs from an early age and are still injury free at college.
I will agree that a coach who is not knowlegeable about pitching. 99% of them should not encourage his pitchers to throw CBs untill they get proper coaching. All types of pitches can result in arm problems.

This is a clip of my son throwing a CB like he did at 10yo. It is in slow motion so you can see there is absolutley no stress on the elbow or any part of his arm..

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/...491031361#6491031361

Man does this topic hit home. My son is 14 and is parked right now until at least Nov 27th no throwing or hitting. He fractured his humerus on the outside growth plate.
The doctor called it Little League Elbow.
My son throw a curve and had a great fastball and change, his mechanics are great but from what the doctor said the fracture came from throwing to much and too hard.
The ligament pulled the growth plate apart.
He always took care of his arm. He warmed up properly and throw long toss and even did a cool down routine after throwing which consisted of running, stretching and icing. So was it the curve or was it the amount of throwing.
Who knows? I wish I knew. He was a full time catcher up to about 2 years ago when we let him pitch and catch.
It is hard on him not being able to play after 10 years of playing ball.

He hopes to be ready to play by Jan 9th that is the first day of try outs at his high school.
But right now he can only straighten his arm to about 5 degrees so he has a lot of therapy ahead of him.

Growth plates can be a whole different problem. I have seen guys with knee problems due to growing so fast the plates fall behind. Don't rush your son. This is a main reason for kids not weight training too soon . Throwing hard & too much can also cause some issues until the plates catch up.
i have seen most of the problems occur when a large growth spurt took place. Very important to know your body and adjust.

quote:

too many curves will inhibit the development of the fastball.

Texan, that is so important. I passed it on to my son today. I feel like I'm in a graduate level course on this site!

What is the point of throwing a CB at a young age? To win or develop? Learn to locate the FB...Learn to set up hitters by moving the FB around the zone....Ruin a hitter's timing with the CU...pitch backwards (throw CU in FB counts)...develop a good FB.

At a young age, if they can't get hitters out consistently with a FB and CU, do you really think they will pitch at a high level in HS?

BobbleheadDoll,

the debate could go on forever concerning throwing CB's,amount of throwing and weight lifting, but as we see from many posting all of the above is a roll of the dice.

the therapist has my son lifting weights as part of his recovery "crazy huh". he is taking it slow he took ground balls today and worked on blocking the ball just to get the rust off, no throwing was done.

thanks

I have not allowed my son (11 yo) to throw a traditional curve yet. We have been trying to master the knucklecurve for sometime now. He uses the same mechanics as his fastball just with the knucklecurve grip and when his grip pressure is just right it is fun to watch kids flail at it.

The big thing I find is that most of you who do not allow CBs think that you cannot develope a decent FB. That is totally incorrect. My son LT and trained just like the guys who only threw FB.
The knuckle CB is a great pitch and his one elite team owners would not let him use it because it is a different throwing motion. I remember one game where he was throwing a KB and the owner ran down to the dougout and blasted the coach. My son was 15 and it was a great pitch. The owners argument was that he wouldn't develop his FB. To the coach is was not true since all the pitchers went through an aggressive throwing program. He probably threw more LT than any other pitcher on the team. He often did the full workout at every game even prior to his game which followed the 1st game.
If you looked at the clip you can save it to your desktop and enlage it so that you can see thyere is no stress on his arm.
The CB that he was taught at 16 is a late breaking CB with a much greater stress on the arm. It has that tomahawk motion and is much harder to hit. I would not allow him to throw that before he was 16-17. It was taught to him by the head pitching scout from the Jays over a 4 week instructional class.
He still mixes in the old CB and it works even against college guys. It is great for setting up double plays since most hitters top the ball if they make any contact at all.

Teach 'em young how to throw it, but focus on FB and CU. My guys have learned that a quality change is one of the most effective pitches in their arsenal.

It is amazing to me how many CBs we see though. It really started heavy at 12U travel ball. Most all of the pitchers we faced threw a lot of CBs. A lot.

Grateful, Midlo, Texan and Redbird have said what many of us believe.
Fb 2 and 4 seam, CU and then break in the curve slowly. An indication of a bad time to have a kid throw the Cb is when they are going thru the growth spurt. I believe its just added pressure on the growth plates. Also watch the pitch counts.
Bobble, your boy sounds like he's doing well, so whatever you did worked for him.
As a coach who works with lots of young players, we have to have some conformity, so we advise our players to stick with Fb 2 and 4 seam and Cu until that growth spurt ends, 14, 15 or 16 for some.
There's too much future at stake and too little to gain by throwing curves early on.

Fracture of a growth plate is really at the very extreme of what we call "Little League Elbow". Generally, Little League Elbow is overuse stress damage of the median growth plate. Avulsions and fractures are less common but can need sugery to put the plate back in place. Be carefull, this injury needs to heal completely. Make sure that he is doing full range of motion therapy so his flexabilty will be maintained.

BobbleHead,

I love your line about, "Growing so fast the plates fall behind". What? The plate is where the new bone growth manifests itself. You gotta love some of the advise people give on this site. Sorry, I just couldn't let that one slide.

Curveballs should not happen until HS and when on the full size field---think about this-- a kid learns to throw a curve at the LL dimensions and then has to learn all over again when he moves to the HS field---better than the 12 and unders learn control and placement

Great topic. With my son, he's been asking to for me to teach him since he was 7 (along with a knuckle and slider and every other pitch in the book). Of everything that I have read, the torque a CB motion could put on an elbow/wrist is too much for a kid whose joints aren't fully developed.
Plus if you throw a 2 seam correctly it will move. So at 9, my son has 3 pitches. Circle change, 4 seam and 2 seam. He'll be using these until he's about 15. My feeling is work on mastering the 2 fastballs and an off speed. Once you got those down, you've put yourself in a great position to add to your arsonal. I'd rather approach it as a CB is a pitch that you can throw when you want, but you shouldn't rely on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Callaway:
but focus on FB and CU.

From what I've heard, it seems like change-ups get largely ignored. A friend of mine is a D1 pitching coach and he mentioned how even at that level, the kids struggle throwing it.

quote:

Growing so fast the plates fall behind".

[
Savannah I don't see advice in that statenent. Here is a doctors simple statement.

location of growth plates: growth plates are at the ends of most long bones, and they stay open and grow until the end of puberty.

I think my statement is correct. Fall behind = stay open and have not closed.
I was not not giving advice about growth plates.

I couldn't resist either.

My son's teammates used lots of CUs. Palm ,circle and modified circle.

I am with the majority, FB, 2 and 4 seam, variations of change ups should be learned a mastered before the CB.
Son was also taught at 13,14 how to throw a curve so he would not experiment on his own, but did not rely on it until later in HS and when he did throw, far and few between.

Sorry, maybe it's me. That statement "growing so fast that the plates fall behind", reminds me of: "That restaurant is so busy that no one go's there anymore." - Yogi Berra.

No big deal. Just seemed funny to me.