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“It’s really about development and learning at this age”
This is a line I hear frequently from many of our esteemed regulars here on HSBBW. I love this site and have learned a great deal here. I truly appreciate and respect so many of the old timers who contribute invaluable information. However, this is one area where I tend to disagree with the prevailing thoughts.

I constantly read here how Little League and youth travel ball is all about development... how wins are not important at this stage. Pony League/Middle School/travel ball is just preparation and weeding out for HS. Then, HS is all about fine tuning skills and working on conditioning and speed & agility so that a player affords himself the opportunity to play college ball. Sometimes, we’re choosing colleges because they have the right pitching coach that will give us the best shot at moving up to the professional ranks.
Most of us regulars have kids who are older, playing at higher levels, so the idea of each prior level being referred to as development for the next is understandable, sort of...
Until you ask the kids. Until you watch the kids. They want to win. They want to win in minors LL. They want to win in majors LL. The same goes for Pony and Middle School. They definitely don’t want to travel, only to get their butts beat with their club team. There are huge rivalries in HS and they sure don’t want to lose there.

I think, sometimes, in our “been there-done that” wisdom, we tend to forget how important each level is to the young player at that time. We also lose sight of the reality of the numbers. For so many, LL is the end of the road. A big win or a big hit in LL is the ultimate competitive sports experience for them. For others, coming off the bench and scoring the winning run as a pinch runner in a JV game is the story they’ll tell when they’re forty five. Most don’t make it on to the varsity team, let alone move on to play college ball.

I’m not talking about ignoring the proper way to handle kids with arm care or injuries or sportsmanship or playing time. I’m not suggesting we start kids on year-round programs to allow them to be more competitive. Of course coaches and parents should act responsibly with all aspects of development. Behind the scenes, development should be a high priority line item in the coach’s plans. But, along the way, we need to remember that most don’t make it to the next level. Today’s game, this season, is as good as it gets. The youth levels are not ALL about development. If we are pushing the “develop for the next level” message too hard along the way, we are taking away the best part of sport. Our kids don’t start playing a sport because they want to develop. They play because its fun. It’s fun to play, fun to compete, and fun to win. It’s OK to play to win.
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So, we are talking pre high school ball.

All kids want to win, and have fun, and PLAY. The 14U team I coached had 11 kids on it. So playing time was pretty good, and pithcers got their innings, but not to the point of overuse.

So how about this. What do you think Bo, my number three pitcher, right fielder would think if we had a tournament, and I brought in a ringer who took his innings and played right field, while he sat the bench except for 2 innings a game. And we win the tournament. Would Bo rather have that or would he rather play his usual amount, get his usual innings and have the team lose in the semifinals, which was common for my 14U team.

I completely understand what you are saying, but I think the boys still just wanna play.
Of course kids like to win. I consider teams playing rec baseball fall into 3 categories: excellent teams that win their league and/or playoffs, teams that get rolled constantly, and then the teams that play .500 ball, give or take. In my sons 8 seasons of LL regular season and playoffs, he was on 2-3 woeful teams and the rest were mediocre. Playing on an aweful team with kids that get 2-3 hits all season and cannot catch routine flies and grounders gets old. He never once managed to play on a "great" team that one it all. Now that I think about it, that might have influenced his desire to play travel ball.

His LL AS teams made it out of pool play for the most part, and got smoked thereafter. But kids do like to win, and most take losing pretty well, but playing on a truly non-competitive team can diminish their love of the game.
This reminds me of a friend of mine.

I grew up with him, and he went on to have a 10 year career playing QB in the NFL. His son and my son have been best friends since they were toddlers, and he and I coached a bunch of teams together over the years.

He would always say to the parents, in the parents meeting prior to the season:

"It's not about winning and losing, it's about having fun. And losing isn't fun."
Everyone prefers to win. But there's a difference between the passion to win and preferring to win. In coaching over sixty teams in multiple sports with two kids from rec to travel I only had me kid who didn't care. He didn't ant to be there.

But the kids primarily show up to play and have fun. I have never had a kid ask not to play. If you check any youth sports poll you will find kids place playing and having fun over winning. Whenever I've had someone disagree with me on this their kid has been one of the better players who is used to being in the lineup and winning all the time. It's not the complete perspective on kids as a whole.

One issue I have with placing kids in dominant preteen travel teams is they play too many one sided games and win a disproportionate number of games. I laugh at travel websites where it's posted the team went undefeated in the tournament winning by a combined score of 97-4. These kids aren't learning how to compete. They aren't learning how to play under pressure. They aren't learning how to cope with losing and improving.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
This reminds me of a friend of mine.

I grew up with him, and he went on to have a 10 year career playing QB in the NFL. His son and my son have been best friends since they were toddlers, and he and I coached a bunch of teams together over the years.

He would always say to the parents, in the parents meeting prior to the season:

"It's not about winning and losing, it's about having fun. And losing isn't fun."
I always told parents as long as theres a scoreboard we will play to win. But winning and losing has to be kept in perspective. Sometimes losing is a speed bump in the process of learning how to win.
There is nothing wrong with winning. Everyone wants to win, otherwise there is no need to keep score. There aren't very many kids who don't care about winning. No doubt winning is very high on each players priority list and it should be.

That said, some of those in charge often let this desire to win get in the way of decision making. Things like having your best pitcher pitch a full game on Friday, a couple innings on Saturday and throwing him again on Sunday. Surely most people here have seen this type of stuff. This is the type of thing where winning gets in the way of development. These are what I would consider stupid wins!

There are teams among the very best in the country. They win many tournaments. Yet they do not jeopordize the future of their players. They definitely want to win, they just go about it while also considering the future of their individual players.

Of course these older teams have large rosters with lots of pitching. Most 10-12 year old teams have very small rosters, sometimes with several kids that can pitch. But they tend to have one or two kids who are the best. These are the kids who are most likely to be abused in the interest of winning. Nobody throws their worst pitcher the most innings.

There is winning today and there hopefully will be much more winning as they grow older. Whether people agree or not, even the Washington Nationals placed more importance on Strasburg (the pitcher) than they did on winning the World Series. That seems like a much bigger decision than those made at any 12 year old games.

Bottom line... There is winning (or losing) the right way and there is winning (or losing) the wrong way. I don't know how any coach could be proud of winning a game because they abused one of their players. Yet, I have seen it happen many times. I've seen it happen at 17-18 year old games. I've seen pitchers being abused in the interest of winning and it hurts to watch it. I've seen pitchers get hurt, have surgery, lose draft interest, lose scholarship opportunities. If it happens at that age, you know it's happening with real young kids.

If you talk to pro scouts or college recruiters they can tell you about the many times they see a kid they want to draft or a kid that had already commited to them throwing way past reasonable limits. It ****es them off. It happens a lot!

Maybe the best system to follow is professional baseball, specifically the minor leagues. Those players want to win every game. Any coach that would place more importance on winning a game than developing his players will not be in that organization for long. So if winning a minor league game with 5,000+ in the stands and the media all around is less important than development... Why is that Little League game so important to win?
After reading a few comments and re-reading my post, I think I may not have quite communicated my message as well as I could have.
Just to be clear, I certainly believe development of fundamentals is crucial at every level and I am also not suggesting a "win at all costs" approach by any stretch.
I just believe that young players should not be made to feel that a given team or season "is ALL about development".
Ideally, we are providing them with the tools AND the opportunity to go out and play, have fun and compete against formidable competition.
And yes, Rob, I have been guilty of using a similar line to your friend's Smile

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
... So if winning a minor league game with 5,000+ in the stands and the media all around is less important than development... Why is that Little League game so important to win?


PG, great post as usual, but part of my point is - that Little League game IS just as important to win to the young boy playing it. In fact, most attending that minor league game, including the players, fans, coaches etc. have some degree of understanding that the minors are, by definition, developmental. That is not necessarily the case with the Little Leaguer.
Last edited by cabbagedad
Winning should be important to kids. But it shouldn't be life or death with parents. The kids move on from the game as soon as they hit the concession stand for the post game snack. I've seen parents in a circle analyzing the game to death. The big problem is when the parents bring their kids into the analysis discussion and start criticizing the coach and other players.
Great topic.

It "mostly" is about winning...

I love sports and that has rubbed off on my sons. Most of the teams I've followed my whole life (minus the 1973, 1974, and 1975 A's) have been losers. Most of the very biggest games I've ever seen my son play in have resulted in losses, him in tears, and a huge hole in my heart... and you know what?... I wouldn't change a thing. Some of my fondest memories in life are from losses and I won't sour grapes it here - I wished we would have won instead have lost!

PG is absolutely right - why keep score then?

Is it ALL about wins? No. Nothing in life is all or nothing - except for obvious things like if you walk in front of oncoming traffic, you will be harmed...

I draw the line at well being. You have a 14 year old on Friday or Saturday pitch the game of their life and get you in the championship game on Sunday. Practically all our members here have experienced that very situation. The game or the win is not important enough to bring that same kid back on one or two days rest and try an win a trophy on Sunday. I've seen kids pushed to win a trophy on Sunday and that ain't right imho.
quote:
Originally posted :
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Great topic.

It "mostly" is about winning...

I love sports and that has rubbed off on my sons. Most of the teams I've followed my whole life (minus the 1973, 1974, and 1975 A's) have been losers. Most of the very biggest games I've ever seen my son play in have resulted in losses, him in tears, and a huge hole in my heart... and you know what?... I wouldn't change a thing. Some of my fondest memories in life are from losses and I won't sour grapes it here - I wished we would have won instead have lost!

PG is absolutely right - why keep score then?

Is it ALL about wins? No. Nothing in life is all or nothing - except for obvious things like if you walk in front of oncoming traffic, you will be harmed...

I draw the line at well being. You have a 14 year old on Friday or Saturday pitch the game of their life and get you in the championship game on Sunday. Practically all our members here have experienced that very situation. The game or the win is not important enough to bring that same kid back on one or two days rest and try an win a trophy on Sunday. I've seen kids pushed to win a trophy on Sunday and that ain't right imho.


You're getting old, Dan. It was the 1972, 73, 74 A's. 1975 was the Reds/Red Sox series with the Ed Armbrister/Carlton Fisk tangle.

Merely a typo - no signs of aging Big Grin
Last edited by Swampboy
Part of developing IS learning to compete, to deal with the pressure of a close game - and experiencing the joy of victory and the disappointment of defeat. Without the context of an actual game you can win or lose, you can't fully learn the skills of the game.

That said, within my meager Little League brand baseball coaching career, I would say the kids on my teams had the most fun when they were competing the hardest. They had more fun in an intense 6-5 loss than in a 20-2 win.
Last edited by FNL

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