The title of the discussion is quoted from a regular HSBBW poster. And here's an article by someone who agrees.
Why the Medical Community Doesn’t Understand How to Decrease Risk of Injury to Pitchers
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I don't think that anyone here disputes that pitchers should take significant time off from THROWING, but rather pitching.
And as always should be age appropriate.
And as always should be age appropriate.
tpm---please stop speaking for others
quote:As for pitch counts, they are, in theory, not a bad idea as every pitcher reaches a point where he is no longer prepared – either in terms of physical conditioning, arm strength, or mental/concentration stamina – to continue pitching without risk of injury. But the problem with setting a fixed number applicable to all pitchers is that for many youth pitchers they will not be able to handle even 50 pitches without a risk of injury, and therefore, even 75 pitches are too many. For others, 75 pitches is no problem because of the shape they are in and the strength of their arm and could readily handle 100 pitches before fatigue sets in. An arbitrary number such as 75 will surely protect some arms, but at the same time will leave players who aren’t ready for 75 pitches still at serious risk of injury.
Whenever I see this kind of statement, my head tries to explode! How is it that people like this don’t understand about the game at every level, is that the only ones in any real jeopardy are the ones the coach THINKS are the best ones, and so will get many more opportunities to be put in harm’s way than some weak kid who hasn’t prepared? The real purpose of pitch counts isn’t to protect the kid who’s only gonna see 5 innings a season. Its to protect the kids being sent out to throw the lion’s share of innings so the coach can say he’s giving the team the best chance to win.
So in any event, having an arbitrary number out there as a stop gap limit, will still at least limit the danger to some degree.
You are right stats, there are a lot of things in that article I do not agree with, and probably others don't as well.
The problem is that every player is different. The doctors really have no idea what level of stress any individual player is seeing. The know roughly what loads are being put on the arm but determining the stress levels for an individual player is virtually impossible. It is the stress and not the loads along with structural soundness of the element being subjected to the stress that determines if there is going to be an injury or not.
I know it isn't shaped like that and I have no idea how thick they really are, I assume somewhat thicker, but let's just say one pitcher has a healthy UCL that is 0.1 inches in diameter. Another pitcher has a healthy UCl that is 0.11 inches in diameter. That's 1/100 of an inch more, probably too small a difference to measure with our current technology. If the tissue is equally strong for both of them the pitcher with the minutely thicker UCl is going to see about 20% less stress in tension for the same load. Of course the load gets distributed differently for everyone because the lengths of legs, arms, forearms and the distribution of tendons, muscles etc, is different for everyone so the stresses are going to vary even more.
Sorry folks, it is the luck of the draw for any given pitcher and all we can do is our best.
One person says to condition them and another says to rest them. Guess what? One way works better for one pitcher and the other way works better for another pitcher.
Overall, I like the approach of active rest but there are limits and when tissue is seriously damaged then active rest if not done exactly right can further the damage.
I know it isn't shaped like that and I have no idea how thick they really are, I assume somewhat thicker, but let's just say one pitcher has a healthy UCL that is 0.1 inches in diameter. Another pitcher has a healthy UCl that is 0.11 inches in diameter. That's 1/100 of an inch more, probably too small a difference to measure with our current technology. If the tissue is equally strong for both of them the pitcher with the minutely thicker UCl is going to see about 20% less stress in tension for the same load. Of course the load gets distributed differently for everyone because the lengths of legs, arms, forearms and the distribution of tendons, muscles etc, is different for everyone so the stresses are going to vary even more.
Sorry folks, it is the luck of the draw for any given pitcher and all we can do is our best.
One person says to condition them and another says to rest them. Guess what? One way works better for one pitcher and the other way works better for another pitcher.
Overall, I like the approach of active rest but there are limits and when tissue is seriously damaged then active rest if not done exactly right can further the damage.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Sorry folks, it is the luck of the draw for any given pitcher and all we can do is our best.
One person says to condition them and another says to rest them. Guess what? One way works better for one pitcher and the other way works better for another pitcher.
Good point.
I will agree with pretty much everything in the article. I do strongly agree that kids need to spend more time throwing (not pitching) to condition the arm. I have always been a strong advocate for throwing every day and training the arm and body to be able to throw every day without any pain or fatigue.
What is the downside of taking a day or two a week off from throwing?
This is article is good topic for discussion. For the record I agree with several points and mildly disagree with others. But here is the best quote from the article-
The first step to reducing injury lies mostly in the hands of coaches. Research and develop better warm up and conditioning exercises for your athletes to perform every day. Allow more time during practice for athletes to throw.
My 2013 RHP happens to play for a HS coach that is a good guy but is fairly uneducated (choosing my adjectives carefully here) about preparing and to a more serious degree, protecting, his pitchers.
I do agree with TRHIT that kids DON"T throw enough. Key word- THROW. Pitching is a much different animal. During the season starting pitchers should throw five days a week counting their once a week, hopefully no more than 90-100 pitch (mid season number) start. Long tossing, a good 3/4 effort 30-40 pitch BP session, etc..I also think that kids should totally shut down ALL THROWING for aprox. 12 weeks every year.
It defintiely isn't a one size fits all equation as they are all different. But there is common sense that needs to enter into the equation for everyone...
The first step to reducing injury lies mostly in the hands of coaches. Research and develop better warm up and conditioning exercises for your athletes to perform every day. Allow more time during practice for athletes to throw.
My 2013 RHP happens to play for a HS coach that is a good guy but is fairly uneducated (choosing my adjectives carefully here) about preparing and to a more serious degree, protecting, his pitchers.
I do agree with TRHIT that kids DON"T throw enough. Key word- THROW. Pitching is a much different animal. During the season starting pitchers should throw five days a week counting their once a week, hopefully no more than 90-100 pitch (mid season number) start. Long tossing, a good 3/4 effort 30-40 pitch BP session, etc..I also think that kids should totally shut down ALL THROWING for aprox. 12 weeks every year.
It defintiely isn't a one size fits all equation as they are all different. But there is common sense that needs to enter into the equation for everyone...
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
The problem is that every player is different. The doctors really have no idea what level of stress any individual player is seeing. The know roughly what loads are being put on the arm but determining the stress levels for an individual player is virtually impossible. It is the stress and not the loads along with structural soundness of the element being subjected to the stress that determines if there is going to be an injury or not.
I know it isn't shaped like that and I have no idea how thick they really are, I assume somewhat thicker, but let's just say one pitcher has a healthy UCL that is 0.1 inches in diameter. Another pitcher has a healthy UCl that is 0.11 inches in diameter. That's 1/100 of an inch more, probably too small a difference to measure with our current technology. If the tissue is equally strong for both of them the pitcher with the minutely thicker UCl is going to see about 20% less stress in tension for the same load. Of course the load gets distributed differently for everyone because the lengths of legs, arms, forearms and the distribution of tendons, muscles etc, is different for everyone so the stresses are going to vary even more.
Sorry folks, it is the luck of the draw for any given pitcher and all we can do is our best.
One person says to condition them and another says to rest them. Guess what? One way works better for one pitcher and the other way works better for another pitcher.
Overall, I like the approach of active rest but there are limits and when tissue is seriously damaged then active rest if not done exactly right can further the damage.
CADad, that was a very good post.
It's an individual thing. My generation doesn't do a lot of things enough, to be perfectly fair about it. We don't swing the bat enough. However, I think that it's an individual thing regarding how much you can throw.
If you have advantageous genetics, then you can probably handle more stress on the shoulder, elbow, and other parts. If you aren't (like most people, myself included), then you should work on throwing RELATED activities, but throw less.
I can't say I "love" pitch counts, in fact I think they're not a great thing in terms of what pitchers can do. They shouldn't be used as widely as they are, because there's a difference between 110 knuckleballs or "floaters" and 110 fastballs or curveballs. But the pitch count alone doesn't tell us that.
As you read an individuals opinion regarding how to train to throw, or more specifically, pitch a baseball, do you wonder exactly what their personal, physical, physiological and mental training experiences have been?
I wonder, what exactly have they trained to do and how does that belief system translate to how they prepare their sons to compete?
Have they ran a marathon, climbed a mountain, pole vaulted, competed in a major sport, been in a fight, studied a fighting art form, been to battle?
If they've done none of the above then perhaps they've pushed them selves to excel academically, play chess, joined a book club, learned a foreign language, or studied an eastern culture.
I guess my point might be that the Human body is a remarkably adaptive machine. Push and challenge any of it's systems; mental, physicological or physical and it will respond, get faster, better and stronger.
I'm looking back on my belief system based on 63 yrs of my personal experiences and I can't think of any bodily system that improves it's performance with prolonged rest? I certainly wouldn't advocate non-training as a means to an end.
But, I can only relate what I've learned. When I look at professional baseball and pitching specifically, one must wonder have not any of those people ever heard of Albert Einstein and his infamous definition of Insanity; "doing the same things over and over while expecting different results?"
I wonder, what exactly have they trained to do and how does that belief system translate to how they prepare their sons to compete?
Have they ran a marathon, climbed a mountain, pole vaulted, competed in a major sport, been in a fight, studied a fighting art form, been to battle?
If they've done none of the above then perhaps they've pushed them selves to excel academically, play chess, joined a book club, learned a foreign language, or studied an eastern culture.
I guess my point might be that the Human body is a remarkably adaptive machine. Push and challenge any of it's systems; mental, physicological or physical and it will respond, get faster, better and stronger.
I'm looking back on my belief system based on 63 yrs of my personal experiences and I can't think of any bodily system that improves it's performance with prolonged rest? I certainly wouldn't advocate non-training as a means to an end.
But, I can only relate what I've learned. When I look at professional baseball and pitching specifically, one must wonder have not any of those people ever heard of Albert Einstein and his infamous definition of Insanity; "doing the same things over and over while expecting different results?"
Prime 9 I like and agree with most of your post and have nothing but respect for your 63 years of wisdom. However, I still believe that pitchers need to shut all throwing down for 2 or 3 months every year. You may refer to at as prolonged rest but I think that the arm needs the time to recover. Then they should start back slowly with flat ground and long toss working up to bullpens...
