King Felix

quote:

Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
so please tell me why David Price didn't win the award, or heck even CC for that matter

Simply put, because they weren't as good as Felix. No, W's don't tell much of the story. Why should a pitcher benefit from being on a good offensive team or be overlooked because he's on a poor one.

When you say

quote:

Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
13-12 doesn't deserve to win the Cy young no matter how many sabermetric numbers you throw out there

That means that you want to overlook every bit of evidence out there that supports his election, in favor of looking at one stat, w's. Besides, if you actually watched him pitch, and then watched the others, I doubt you'd attempt to make your argument. He was pretty magical on a team that couldn't score offensively.

I can defininitly see how Hernandez's selection could be polarizing. I tend to agree w/ the voters. The Cy Young, as is my understanding, was intended to recognize the best pitcher in each league.

The problem: how is the best pitcher determined? Given Hernandez' rank in the major measurable categories, he deserved the award. Using statistics as a barometer to determine the "best pitcher" is the best way, though less than perfect, to compare apples to apples.

Winning is the ultimate goal, but should carry less weight in the equation considering pitchers (especially in the AL) have a difficult time influencing their team's run production, fielding percentage, etc.

As for Price's recognition by the MLBPA, that award could arguably be more valued by pitchers than a Cy Young. Nah, probably not.

Put CC on Seattle and he would have had a losing record. Put Felix on the Yankees and he would have won around 25 games. Winning games means something in a team context but who gets the win in a game is not the best way to determine who pitched the best. Felix dominated those two as well as every pitcher in the AL in all the newer stats designed to show true superiority in what the pitcher did, not whether his team supported him with 6 plus runs a game. I truly don't believe ML pitchers in the day of the lively ball pitch too much differently when they have a lead than not as the lead can disappear in a heartbeat. Also if CC let up at times when Felix could never let up and thus had superior statistics, then Felix deserved to win the award on that account also. And before someone else brings it up that they think its harder to pitch in a pennant race, try pitching and winning when one run, two at the most will beat you virtually every time. That's pitching under pressure! I still appreciate wins just like batting average but we must put them in their true context when there are now much better ways to see productivity and greatness.

I don't have a vote but if I did it would be for Hernandez for the reasons already stated above.

quote:

I don't have a vote but if I did it would be for Hernandez for the reasons already stated above.

Exactly. Cy Young is about the best pitcher and best ERA (imho) realative to the other contenders. It is an individual award, so ERA is more appropriate than Wins and Losses. The man has filthy, filthy stuff. He was the best this year. I think a lot of credit should also go to his catchers.

If you've read any of the interview quotes following the award announcement, Felix may have won the Cy Young but Price won the first class award.

Courtesy of Jayson Stark of ESPN:

Felix had 30 quality starts, the most since Catfish Hunter in 1974.

In 7 of his last 14 starts he left after seven innings or later and Seattle had scored exactly zero runs in every one of them.

In starts against plus .500 teams Felix had 22 with a 2.26 ERA, Price had 21 with a 2.67 ERA, and CC had 21 with a 3.32 ERA.

In starts against the Yankees and Red Sox Felix had four with an ERA of 0.54 while Price had seven with an ERA of 3.61.

Felix not only had the least runs scored for him of any pitcher in the ML's, he had the least runs scored for any pitcher with a 2.50 ERA or better since 1978.

He finished first or second in virtually every measurable "good" stat old or new except wins.

Congratulations to Felix. I think it speaks volumes about the guy that he didn't fold, throw up his hands or just show up the rest of the season when it was obvious that he was pitching on a below lousy team. To go out and pitch the way he did knowing that Figgins had his back (not), the fact that his catchers were leading the majors in PB and the offense seldom if ever showed up says a lot about his character.

His mental toughness is very impressive.

A pitcher for a loser don't pitch in big games with pressure. No way Felix deserves the award. Sabathia pitched in every big game this year while Felix cruises in garbage time.

When offensive teams administer beatdowns on weaker opponents, top pitchers will pitch to the scoreboard so those era's will be higher, while pitching for a loser, pitchers can just pitch to pad their stats and not worry about pitching to the scoreboard.

Wins do mean something

Zombywoof,

I pretty sure if it was that easy to as you say, "pad" their stats as Felix apparently did, more pitchers might try it. What pressure did CC pitch under exactly? NY was not playing for a playoff spot, only seeding most of the season. A pitcher leads in the one stat that his teammates control and you think that the pitcher should be rewarded for that. Any pitcher who pitches to the scoreboard in the Major Leagues won't be a Major League pitcher for long. I think CC pitched his absolute best every minute he was on that mound and it just wasn't as good as Felix. If he didn't, then he doesn't deserve the Cy Young award anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
A pitcher for a loser don't pitch in big games with pressure. No way Felix deserves the award. Sabathia pitched in every big game this year while Felix cruises in garbage time.

When offensive teams administer beatdowns on weaker opponents, top pitchers will pitch to the scoreboard so those era's will be higher, while pitching for a loser, pitchers can just pitch to pad their stats and not worry about pitching to the scoreboard.

Wins do mean something

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Felix wasn't pitching gems because he wanted to pad his stats, he pitched as well as he did because he was the only reason the team stayed in games. He HAD to pitch well otherwise the team would be losing 8-2 instead of 3-2.

I don't buy that argument that pitchers only pitch as well as the runs scored around them. If he was padding stats he would have left after 5-6 innings just so he could keep his ERA down. What Felix did was go out and pitch 7-8 innings almost every start. His quality starts were higher than any other pitcher in either league. He pitched as well as he did because he HAD to, not because he wanted some kind of stat thing. If you followed this kid for one moment you would realize that he doesn't have a self centered bone in his body. If he did he certainly wouldn't have resigned with Seattle. He could have made a fortune with the Yankees or Red Sox but he stayed loyal to the team and the fans of Seattle.

Last year Felix gave up more than three earned runs exactly four times. FOUR times. He gave up 3 Earned runs four times. The rest of his games he gave up two earned runs or less. 34 starts, 28 times he gave up two or less earned runs.

YOU name me a pitcher that did better than that last year. Name me a pitcher in the last 10 years that did that. I watched Felix pitch up here and the guy is about as underrated as they come. Put this guy on even a mediocre team and they will become a playoff contender.

The fact is that I consider him the greatest RHP in the last two years His ERA last year was 2.49 and he was 19-5. The Mariners actually had a little bit of offense that year. He is 24, healthy and dominant. This will not be his first Cy Young. I just hope Seattle doesn't waste such a fine talent and can actually get some players around him that can give him soe run support. It is pathetic that he can go out and pitch 8 innings on one or two run ball only to get the loss because the team can't seem to generate more than 1-2 runs per game.

The guy deserves a lot better.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
A pitcher for a loser don't pitch in big games with pressure. No way Felix deserves the award. Sabathia pitched in every big game this year while Felix cruises in garbage time.

When offensive teams administer beatdowns on weaker opponents, top pitchers will pitch to the scoreboard so those era's will be higher, while pitching for a loser, pitchers can just pitch to pad their stats and not worry about pitching to the scoreboard.

Wins do mean something

So pitching in a situation where you know giving up a single run means you lose isn't pressure? Seattle had the worst offense in MLB. And pitching for the highest scoring team in MLB where you have much more room for error is high pressure?

And this "pitching to the score" myth is a convenient way to explain why C.C. was otherwise not as good as Felix this year. But, to put it simply, "pitching to the score" doesn't exist. And even if it did, your "excuse" for why C.C. didn't pitch as well is basically "he was up by more runs so he didn't try as hard"? Come on.

You're right about one thing- wins do mean something. For the team, not for the individual pitcher. Please read this: http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb...keith%26id%3d5599365

Voters got it right. Felix was the best, and it wasn't particularly close.

Felix was amazing and deserved the award.

In my opinion, I think Felix's 13 wins were more impressive then Price's 19 wins when you put it in perspective. He had to be virtually perfect every time out.

Stu

quote:

Originally posted by ThinkPitching:
Felix was amazing and deserved the award.

In my opinion, I think Felix's 13 wins were more impressive then Price's 19 wins when you put it in perspective. He had to be virtually perfect every time out.

Stu

I agree.
True that when a team is ahead it makes the pitcher more relaxed but the sign of a truely great pitcher pitches the same everytime he goes out, no matter who they are playing, where they are playing, no matter the weather, the umpires, etc. That's kind of hard for a yuong guy to figure out so soon too, he's a winner and deserves the award.

I believe this election signified a shift in the way the award voters are looking at statistical evidence. A more modern approach where studying the new available metrics has taken hold with a younger set of voters who understand what best shows how a guy did. If you want to see the "old" dinosaur approach just look at the award of the Golden Glove to Jeter by Managers and coaches who obviously just awarded it based on Jeter being a "winner" and a great Yankee. They sure didn't actually consider his fielding skills. It was almost painful to watch the difference between him and Elvis Andrus at shortstop.

Felix deserved to win it. He lead in every category other than wins. There were so many games where he would be losing a game 1-0 in the 8th inning because his team gave him no run support. He deserves it.