knuckle ball

quote:

Originally posted by ballslinar21:
this past week in the state tourney my curveball wasnt working for somereason, but my fastball was. i was locating it perfectly but i knew that i had to mix it up. i had been messing around with a knuckle ball for about two years now, so i decided to throw it a couple of times. turns out it was moving like crazy and no one even touched it. i ended up throwing a one hitter. but i was wandering how do you think scouts view a knuckle? do they view it as bush league? or if someone can control one with a good fb would they view that as a good thing?

Many people don't like it, but some people (myself included) could care less as long as it's effective.

Back in the day, many pitchers threw a knuckler as their 4th or 5th pitch.

It matters not what the pitch is if you have control of it, can locate it and continually get batters out with it.

Some coaches (whether or not anyone agrees with them) do not like the kb because they feel that too much use of the knuckler impedes development of the fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
It matters not what the pitch is if you have control of it, can locate it and continually get batters out with it.

You could also just lie and call it something else like a fosh change, knuckle-change, or knuckle-curve.

Why do you bring in the word "LIE" ?

Sure does tell me something about your thinking---the more you post the more credibility evaporates not that there was much to begin with

MOTHERS and FATHERS : don't let your sons grow up to be students of painguy !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
You could also just lie and call it something else like a fosh change, knuckle-change, or knuckle-curve.

What was that pitch?
\
(Joe Scout)

It was a fosh.
\
(player)

Son, a fosh change spins. That pitch didn't spin.
\
(Joe Scout)

Uhh...well....ummm...it was my knuckle change fosher....
\


NP
\
(Joe Scout)

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Why do you bring in the word "LIE" ?

I don't think this is that big of a deal, because we both agree that what you're dealing with is an irrational fear or disliking of the knuckleball.

If you don't want to lie, then call it a change-up, which a knuckleball technically is (i.e. it's a pitch that's slower than one's fastball). Leave out the fact that it also knuckles.

thanks, only reason i asked is everyone says to stay away from it. but if you throw it correctly you can get some crazy movement. and just like a change up its way slower than a fb. but if you keep the possibility of offspeed, especially something with a 20 mph diff, in the back of hitters head, you own the inside corner.

painguy

Now I know you are out in left field---where did I say I am dealing with an "irrational fear or disliking of a knuckleball" ????? I happen to like the pitch and never miss watching Wakefield pitch---I also grew up watching Hoyt Wilhelm pitch for the NY Giants. Are you "thinking" again?

I think you might want to go back what you do for a living, whatever that may be, and give up the "I think " theories because you dont think well pal


By the way did you get your son a "real" coach yet?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Now I know you are out in left field---where did I say I am dealing with an "irrational fear or disliking of a knuckleball" ????? I happen to like the pitch and never miss watching Wakefield pitch---I also grew up watching Hoyt Wilhelm pitch for the NY Giants. Are you "thinking" again?

Obviously, I'm not talking about you since we share the same opinion of the pitch.

I'm talking about the coaches out there who don't like the knuckleball but don't have a good reason for holding that opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by ballslinar21:
thanks, only reason i asked is everyone says to stay away from it. but if you throw it correctly you can get some crazy movement. and just like a change up its way slower than a fb. but if you keep the possibility of offspeed, especially something with a 20 mph diff, in the back of hitters head, you own the inside corner.

"They" tell you to stay away from it because TYPICALLY you don't develop a FB to compliment it.

quote:

too much use of the knuckler impedes development of the fastball.

BINGO !!
Fact is you are a KB thrower or you aren't. You either master the KB or you don't.

Pain every time you make a statement I have to bite my tongue.

Pain how do you grip and throw a KB ?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Fact is you are a KB thrower or you aren't. You either master the KB or you don't.

I'm not convinced this is a fact.

Look at the history of the game and how many guys way back when used to throw a KBall in addition to a fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain how do you grip and throw a KB ?

Read "The Knucklebook". It's the best book on the subject.

Also, a knuckleball technically isn't a knuckle-ball. Instead, it's more of a fingertip-ball

How do you throw it ?

Pain it is not really thrown either. It is launched witha pushing motion and the finger tips are used to reduce spin. It is pushed similar to a shot put type of motion and that is why coaches do not like young developing pitchers to throw it. This motion does not help the arm development so it really is a rational reason for not liking young pitchers throwing it.

Painguy

You have just proved what I said---YOU KNOW SQUAT !!!---Bobble asks a question and you tell him to read a book----Pain---you are a cyberspace mcowboy---we can all read books and websites but most of us are intelligent enough not to regurgite what we find or read

Did you get your son a REAL COACH/INSTRUCTOR yet?


You had better !!!

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain it is not really thrown either. It is launched witha pushing motion and the finger tips are used to reduce spin. It is pushed similar to a shot put type of motion and that is why coaches do not like young developing pitchers to throw it. This motion does not help the arm development so it really is a rational reason for not liking young pitchers throwing it.

A knuckleball moves best when thrown at 70 MPH, and 70 MPH is a still a relatively high velocity for most people. Also, some major league curves come in at that speed.

While different things are going on at the release point in terms of what the hand, fingers, and wrist are doing, the arm action required to get the ball going 70 MPH is closer to what is used to throw a fastball than it is to a shot put.

It's not like a knuckleball is thrown underhand or backwards.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Painguy

You have just proved what I said---YOU KNOW SQUAT !!!---Bobble asks a question and you tell him to read a book----Pain---you are a cyberspace mcowboy---we can all read books and websites but most of us are intelligent enough not to regurgite what we find or read

Did you get your son a REAL COACH/INSTRUCTOR yet?


You had better !!!

Whatever.

CHRIS


You just proved my point---anyone can do what you and still know as little as you do



Baseball is a real world not an "I THINK" world---

My condolences to your students

Pain my son threw BP for Ron Davis who was a pitching coach for a Pro team working out of our stadium. He had a knuckle baller on his team. His FB was 75mph and his KB was 68. He was one of the best KB guys I have seen and yes it is not exactly as a shot put but I hoped that would give you the idea it is a different motion than a FB. A batter can see the KB coming but it floats and has no spin. You are cofusing the other off speeds with the arm action of a FB where you want it to look the same as a FB. That is why you are either a KB pitcher or a regular pitcher. The motion is not like a FB.
You can't face the fact you are not knowlegeable about pitching. What I have said is basic to pitching and the KB is frowned on by coaches who are trying the develop you arm not because it may injur your arm. I think they have a very rational point.

Just like Bobble said, the pitch is pushed more like a shot put and this does nothing to develop the pitching release of other pitches. Many coaches believe that a knuckleballer learns to throw this as a last resort, and generally focuses exclusively on it. Wakefield will throw an occassional 75 mph fastball and a few 65 curves, but 90% are knucklers. By the way, some catchers are fooled as much as some hitters when a good knuckler is thrown, and thats a coaches worry as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachric:
Many coaches believe that a knuckleballer learns to throw this as a last resort, and generally focuses exclusively on it.

Yes they believe it, but in doing so they are ignoring the history of the game.

In the past, many pitchers threw a knuckleball as well as a fastball.

Only since 1960 or 1970 have knuckleball specialists been the rule and not the exception.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
yes it is not exactly as a shot put but I hoped that would give you the idea it is a different motion than a FB.

Have you ever thrown a shotput? Have you ever thrown a knuckleball?

I have thrown both and will tell you that, while you may think the arm action is the same, they are actually very different.

Also, you would be hard pressed to throw a ball 70 MPH using a shot put type motion.

Pain what are you talking about ? The history of the game ?
They are doing what is best for a young player who may not have the FB to be effective at a high level. As Coachric said it is usually a move to become a KB pitcher because it may be the only way to continue at a higher level.
You claim to be a scout/advisor and that is where I have a problem . You have shown over and over that you lack basic knowledge. I am still trying to figure out you motives.
The only thing I have figured out is you have a young pitcher son and have let your imagination run amuck.
I agree with TR get a qualified coach to work with him and make sure he is conditioned to the nth degree.

For those of who you think the arm action used to throw a knuckleball is...

- Unlike the arm action used to throw a fastball
- More like the arm action used to throw a shotput

...here is a link to a video of Tim Wakefield throwing a knuckleball...

- Tim Wakefield's Knuckleball Arm Action

If you go through the video frame by frame you will see...

- His PAS upper arm externally rotate as his shoulders start to turn.
- His PAS forearm lay back.
- His elbow extend as his shoulders stop rotating.
- His PAS upper arm internally rotate as his elbow stops extending.

Believe it or not, this is pretty much exactly what happens when you throw a fastball. The only difference is that the forearm lays back more when throwing a fastball.

Have you ever thrown a fb, tpg? The kb and the fb are thrown differently, especially by young pitchers.

I've been know to disagree with TR & bbh a time or two. But for the most part, they are correct on this one.

I'm sorry, tpg, but you are just incorrect and feeding bad information to a young pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Have you ever thrown a fb, tpg? The kb and the fb are thrown differently, especially by young pitchers.

Please see my post above with the link to the clip of Tim Wakefield.

While there are differences, they aren't as dramatic as people seem to think.

Differences don't always have to be "dramatic" to be very important.

Pain go through that clip frame by frame. You will see the ball is released with the hand flat as opposed to on top of the ball. That is where the push is .
As I said I know it is not exactly a shot push throw but at release it is a flat hand with palm towards the plate.

I also noticed he reduces his grip to the thumb and pointer finger as he releases. That pitch seemed to rotate more than I would expect. My son's KB floated and moved around more.

quote:

Originally posted by ballslinar21:
i was wandering how do you think scouts view a knuckle? do they view it as bush league? or if someone can control one with a good fb would they view that as a good thing?

ballslinar21 - My opinion is most kb pitchers are short lived. They are either on or off day to day with the kb. Lack of consistency is the issue with most kb pitchers. Harder to know how good knuckleballers will turn out where a pitcher with good command of fastball is more reliable in the long haul.

Roll this is another reason you either are a KB pitcher or not. You have to devote a lot of time learning to be effective.

Another point is that most teams only make room for 1 KB guy on their roster so if you are going to the next level it may be harder to find a spot.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Roll this is another reason you either are a KB pitcher or not. You have to devote a lot of time learning to be effective.

Another point is that most teams only make room for 1 KB guy on their roster so if you are going to the next level it may be harder to find a spot.

Ditto!

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain go through that clip frame by frame. You will see the ball is released with the hand flat as opposed to on top of the ball. That is where the push is. As I said I know it is not exactly a shot push throw but at release it is a flat hand with palm towards the plate.

Most major league pitchers who throw from this high-sidearm arm slot release their fastballs in basically the same manner.

Their fingers are rarely on top of the ball at this point. Instead they are at the side of the ball.

Only pitchers who throw from a high 3/4 or overhand arm slot actually have their fingers on top of the ball at the release point.

Also, Wakefield's elbow is bent more than would be the elbow of someone who was throwing hard since he's "only" throwing 70MPH.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I also noticed he reduces his grip to the thumb and pointer finger as he releases. That pitch seemed to rotate more than I would expect. My son's KB floated and moved around more.

The tips of his index and middle finger are still on the ball at the release point but are pointed toward home plate, so they are harder to see. It's the push from these fingers that provides the topspin that cancels out the backspin generated by the wrist.

Painguy,
Step away from the keyboard... head out to that infamous backyard... throw your best semblance of a FB... attempt to throw a KB that actually knuckles... feel the difference... you may not be able to see it in a video clip but the feeling will be self-explanitory. One of the biggest reasons we don't encourage young players to throw a KB is their hands simply are too small and we have a tough enough time teaching them a good FB & CU grip.

Roll and Bobble have hit it again. The ability to be able to command a KB is probably the biggest challenge for any pitcher. Why does a young pitcher need a pitch that he doesn't know how to command, or where its going, let alone what the catcher has to contend with.
If you really can see pitching Pain, then you can see Wake's release point and the hand/arm action at that time. Not like a Fb in MO.
Teach the kid 2 and 4 seam FB's, a CU, and eventually breaking stuff. Then there are cutters, splitters and sinkers as they grow with the game.