Knuckle ball advice.

Our sons' pitching instructor has a strict "NO CURVEBALL" phylosophy for young arms. He teaches the knuckle curve to boys who really want another pitch. Since he protects their arms so fiercely, I've come to the conclusion that the knuckle curve is harmless.
PS...Both my sons hate it!

Some will argue here, but I am no fan of the knuckler. It looks like fun and some think its easy to throw.
However, the proper way to throw one is sort of pushing the ball forward instead of using a full range of motion arm action that you will use throwing other pitches.
In the history of the bigs, most guys that threw one were usually guys whose arms were all done or they didn't throw well in the first place. They learned at some point how to be successful throwing the knuckler and went on from there.
If a kid has a healthy arm and can throw 3 pitches for strikes, he will have much success without ever fooling with a knuckler. JMHO

KC, a knuckle curve is not a knuckle ball. Knuckle curve is with the index finger knuckle on the ball and the middle finger gripping at the threads. Knuckle ball is fingernails gripping the ball only and a pushing action for release.

Coachric..
My mistake. Asked my sons and its a knuckleball, not a knuckle curve. Tells you how much I know! They both still say they hate it.

Coachric,

Thanks for your response. I value it. My son throws the typical 2 and 4 seamer with the change up. He is just looking for another pitch that he can throw just a couple of times throught a game to sneak up on the batter and give him another look. It does not have to be a strike just something with movement. Any ideas?

how about a cut fastball.

A lot of people don't like for a developing pitcher to throw a knuckle ball. I don't know the validity of their theory, but I've heard it and it makes some sense.

Basically, when throwing a knuckle ball, you have to have a stiff wrist, which is the exact opposite from a good fastball. The argument against a knuckleball is that kids who develop one early, never develop a good fastball. They believe that using a knuckleball is a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" type of situation.

We've never encouraged any of our youngsters to throw a knuckleball.

The KB is a pushing motion totally unlike a throwing motion. A young pitcher will not develope his arm strength throwing a KB.
It is more like shot put motion.

Thanks all. The info is great. I will share your posts with my son and show him it may not be to his advantage to throw the knuckle ball. How do you throw a cut fast ball?

Gimages, thanks for the kind words.
I like to look at a pitching sequence to see what pitches may be needed or help the pitcher be effectve.
Start at age 12-14
Fastball inside corner, if the kid has practiced location and spots of course.
Then, if the hitter didn't make contact, fastball away.
No contact yet, change down and in (in a perfect world).
14-17 Fastball in, curve away, fastball away or change down, then fastball away.
Now, of course some coaches will point out how important count and hitter is.
Definitely true.
But I'm giving you an idea of how effective a pitcher can be by mixing it up and changing speed and locations.
2 types of fastball, a good change, and a well practiced curveball is all any kid will need right thru high school.
Now, if they aren't effective with this assortment, send them back to the pen to check mechanics, and work on location.
Always have your pitcher working on improving his fastball, and thats done by throwing it. Good luck and keep us posted.

My observations:
"Many" pros over the years have thrown the knuckle ball. A few were sucessful for years and had on average longer pitching careers than their contemporaries. The knuckle ball is to be thrown, not shot putted although most do "shot put" it. The push is by the fingers at the end. It takes practice and a feel for it. Some get it and many do not. If you think you got it and throw it in a game and it tumbles one too many times - you will most likely be waving bye-bye to it. Even Wakefield has good days with it and bad days with it. I don't think that any pro knuckle baller ever won the Cy Young award or was a 20 game winner. There used to be more knuckle ballers when pitchers pitched more in a year. My understanding is that many knuckle ballers were ones who were injured or were not making it in pro ball and this was a last resort. Also, catchers HATE catching the knuckler as no one knows where it is going!
If you were the coach, would you use the fireballer with good "crisp" throws or the knuckle baller and hope he has a good day in the critical situation?

The question here is is it good for a young pitcher to use the KB. Unless you intend to be a KB pitcher it is not. You will not strengthen your arm.
My son was invited to work bull pen with a pro team coached by Ron Davis the former NY yankee pitcher. On that team was a KB pitcher (26 yo). He couldn't break 78 with his fast ball. HE was very successful most days and had been in the minors. The kb if thrown properly floats with no rotation. It is released witha pushing motion off the finger tips.
My son like all young pitchers tried every pitch and was throwing it in a game 16U Elite. He was having a great time with it until the general manager saw him. He almost killed himself running through the stand to blast the coach. He tore a strip off the coach for allowing him to throw the KB. He wasn't worried about injury but arm strength. He called a meeting and told all 25 players they would do themselves no good by throwing the KB if they inteneded to play for him.

Son read all the posts and said he would take the advice and work more on his fast ball etc. He really never intended to concentrate on the knuckle, but was having fun to see if he could make it dance. The knuckle will be reserved for when we play catch. As normal a great discussion and points well made and taken.

RA Dickey

My son had a great knuckleball, and would go through phases of lunacy when he would like to use it as a change-up.

Every time he went through a "knuckler" phase, the release point would get less precise on his fastball, and he would have a hard time hitting his spots.

And he would inevitably realize he couldn't maintain both.

It was fun to watch when it was working, but not nearly as fun as when he had good command of everything else...

Knuckle ball saved career.

I have a freshman with a minus fastball and hook. We are attempting to turn him into a primarily knucksie guy. He can throw it.

Folks, the fastball is the pitch a kid should be working on. Even at the h.s. level very few kids dominate with a knuckleball. That's 12-y.o. stuff for most pitchers. I'm 54 and I would park that pitch.

I don't understand this thread. A pitcher needs to compete with the fastball, first, foremost and for any chance of moving on to the next level. Drop the knuckles, the college sliders..

Fastball. Curveball. Change.

Guys, the knuckle ball is not a changeup because it does not work off the fast ball. Everyone in the park can see when you are attempting to throw the knuckle ball. As noted it does not help your FB command or your arm speed. It's tough to control, it's tough to make move enough to be effective, it's difficult for your catcher to catch if thrown well and it's tough for an umpire to call for a strike.

Unless a young pitcher has given up developing as a pitcher and is going to be primarily a knuckle ball pitcher, he should leave it alone.

totally disagree

"Smoke em inside"

I taught my son the knuckleball playing catch. He threw it a few times in games where it couldn't hurt him. Always caught the batter off guard. A ʞ is a ʞ.

I don't see any harm in kids trying to throw a knuckle ball. I also don't think any one (or very few) will ever get scholarship offers if the knuckler is their primary pitch. But, not all kids are going to the next level, and if throwing a knuckle ball can keep one kid involved in the game for one more season, then keep on throwing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Goin_yard:
I don't see any harm in kids trying to throw a knuckle ball. I also don't think any one (or very few) will ever get scholarship offers if the knuckler is their primary pitch. But, not all kids are going to the next level, and if throwing a knuckle ball can keep one kid involved in the game for one more season, then keep on throwing it.

It probably doesn't "Harm" them, but if you've ever sat through one of your son's pitching lessons, when he and his coach are focused on fine-tuning some minute detail of his mechanics, carefully evaluating the effect of every pitch, and trying to burn the muscle memory program into the kid's head...

Then when you write the check for it, you kind of want it to stick. The last thing you want to see is your kid using a goofy throwing motion like the knuckleball to de-program it.

PS. I've you've got a SS, OF, or 3B with a great arm who gets a few innings here and there, and who likes to mix in the knuckleball - its just as dangerous.

Just say "no" the the Clown Prince of pitches...

It's been studied and alleged that throwing of the knuckler and splitter by the youngest of teenagers may impact the non fully developed elbow and wrist ulnar collateral ligament.