Knuckle Curve

keep working on both,,was under the WRONG impression that HS coaches want to see a great change and curve and a knuckle ball will get you nowhere..oh well they kept a kid with a 70mph fastball and a knuckle ball..so I guess a knuckle ball is something a coach wants to see...so ya learn somethin everyday

unh, i throw a knuckle curve and ive been very successful with it. it can be a very good pitch or a very hittable pitch. it depends on how you hold it and how you throw it. i hold it with two knuckles and at a 3/4 arm slot. my ball ussually starts right at the batter and drops right to the outside corner. just try different ways to throw it and you might just find a way that really works.

To wogdoggy, I am talking about a knuckle curveball, not a knuckeball. To austin 9, I hold the pitch upside horseshoe with my index finger knuckle on the ball and my middle finger on the right seam. I release it 3/4 and it seems to have solid 12-6 rotation. The reason I ask is because there are some (and I am becoming one of them) that believes the knuckle curve is the best curveball for producing optimum topspin rotation.

UNH, it sounds like you use the same grip as my son his has a real good break. He learned it from a picture he saw of Pedro Martinez' grip. I'm posting a link to a video of my son's curve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56bO-Y4voY8

A knuckle ball is thrown with the finger nails not the knuckles and it has no rotation. A KB curve dives at the plate if thrown properly. It is thrown with a pushing motion and that is why there is no rotation. It floats.
Young pitchers are usually not throwing a KB because it does not help develope your arm strength.

Again, I am talking about the knuckle curve here, not the knuckle ball. Being a Red Sox fan, I know much about the knuckle ball from watching Tim Wakefield and even from seeing Charlie Zink pitch in the Red Sox farm system. The knuckle curve, the topic of this thread, if thrown properly, should have sharp 12-6 rotation and should break much like a normal 12-6 curveball. My question is what others think of the knuckle curve grip, as I am experimenting with it and beginning to grow fond of it.

JDsDad,
..........Right handed Barry Zito hook.....very cool. How old is he?

Yes and if you take the fingers out of the pitch you are throwing a CB gripped by the knuckles which is similar to a change up in velo reduction. I have a hard time seeing any advantage.

The Knuckle curve is a great way to throw a curve, but in reality it's almost just a learning tool on how to properly throw a c/b. It stresses getting on top. I use to throw one until I ran into trouble with it when I was too sweaty. I switched to a traditional grip, using the same motion, and I have the same type of pitch.

Thanks Deemax, He is 15 yrs old.

I was taught a knucklecurve 1st, then the "traditional" curveball. I was told the knuckle curve was easier on the arm, less torque I guess. I used both in college and felt I had good success with both. Don't be too concerned with a curveball not developing arm strength (never been through a throwing program that says go out and throw 25 curveballs at x number of feet to gain velocity???) its called offspeed for a reason. What I'd be careful of is when you guys are talking about 3/4 release, is that where you throw everything from??? If so fine, if you';re changing for your CB, your'e tipping the pitch. Also, I felt the knuckle-curve worked well off my fastball because the hand position and release are more consistent (palm up FB/ch, any twisting is CB/slider)but I was taught to throw my knuckle curve like my fastball,and let the grip do the work.

knuckle change is thrown like a fastball with the pointer finger knuckled and the middle on the right two seam grip...a knuckle curve is held the same way BUT is thrown with curve ball rotation not fastball rotation..

turnin2, when I speak of a 3/4 release I am talking about the high 3/4 release that I use to throw all of my pitches. Certainly you are correct that any chaange in arm angle could tip off a batter. Also, dropping down to a lower arm angle throw a curveball wouldn't make sense to me anyway, as it would flatten the pitch out and make it hang.

now don't get me wrong, as a pitcher i threw mostly 3/4, but truthfully thew from different arm slots throughout the game, little dive here, tail there, or just to give a good hitter another look. as for the grip/release, thats how I was taught and have taught it. call it a knuckle-change, but it has/had downward movement away from a righty, so it was a good compliment to my changeup, which broke down and in on a righty, and had some arc to it. if i remember, my fb was about 87, my change 72-74, knuckle-curve/change about 77-78, CB about the same...like i said i was told to throw it like a FB but let the grip do the work. either way, if you throw it like a FB or break it off like a CB, its a solid pitch.

My son learned the knuckle curve when he was ten in LL.
It has proven to be a outstanding pitch acting like a 6-12 curve with a late sudden severe drop. He is now 14 and still throws it as a change/ curve type pitch. It has proven to be a devastating pitch for the batter. You do not snap the wrist so it doesen't kill the elbow. Mike Messina and Bobby Jenks throw it but it still is not well known. As you can tell people get it mixed up with a knuckle ball which it certainly is not. A link showing the grip is http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_grips.htm#q8.
It helps to have flexible fingers.
Good luck.

when i throw my knuckle curve it doesnt have a 12-6 drop. it has more of a 1-7 or a 2-8 but it has tons of movement. i dont hold it how you guys are saying. i hold it with two knuckles. i might take a pic of it and put it on here to show you guys what i mean.

The proper way to grip a knuckle curve is as has been posted, with the index knuckle under and the middle finger on the edge of a seem. It should be thrown like all pitches, as a fastball is thrown, and then the grip and release will take care of movement and rotation. Different arm angles, low 3/4 high 3/4, can change movement.

Coachric,

Agree 100%. My 11 YO throws it with no change in anything from the 4-seam fastball except the grip. It has proved to be a very effective weapon and he has the exact same release and mechanics as his fastball.

I've been throwin a K Curve for 2 1/2 years now, and the only reason is because none of the other curves ever worked for me.

I hold it with my index finger bent on the railroad track seam, and the middle finger lying on the 2nd seam
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I like is especially since I can vary the brake fairly easily, by throwing it traditionally over the top [where i throw my fastball] i get a standard 12-6, pretty sharp. Or I can throw it a little bit 3/4 and get a slider action where it will go 2-8 or so.

as a lefty, i throw a kc and get very good movement. depending on how i throw it, i can get either 12-6 or 11-5 movement. i also mix speeds with it, getting a faster, sharper break, or slower, 12-6 break. at a recent game, i threw the 12-6 version, starting it at the batter's eye level. When it crossed the plate, the catcher's glove was touching the ground. The pitch was somewhere around 70mph, 8-9 less than my fastball.

The kc is an awesome pitch if thrown properly, a 12-6 break is preferred as this break is the most difficult for the hitters eyes to adjust to. Experiment with both and find what works well for you. Having a couple different breakers wouldn't be bad either.

Does a knuckle curve put the same stress on a young pitcher's arm as a regular curve?

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Does a knuckle curve put the same stress on a young pitcher's arm as a regular curve?

IMO yes...Its honestly comparing apples to oranges

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Originally posted by StatManLV:
Does a knuckle curve put the same stress on a young pitcher's arm as a regular curve?

IMO, no. IF (a big if) the pitch is thrown just like a fastball with proper pronation, etc.

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IMO, no. IF (a big if) the pitch is thrown just like a fastball with proper pronation, etc.

how do you throw a knuckle curve just like a fastball?...Its thrown like a curve.

And a curve should be thrown like a fastball, with a curveball grip. When a kid tries changing his delivery or arm slot and release point, because he "Thinks" a curveball is thrown differently, he is bound for trouble. Grip it, throw it, work on it. All good things in time.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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IMO, no. IF (a big if) the pitch is thrown just like a fastball with proper pronation, etc.

how do you throw a knuckle curve just like a fastball?...Its thrown like a curve.

Hold in your hand like a fastball and just tuck the index finger against the ball. Then throw like a fastball.

A few of our HS kids are throwing this with great success. It is just another pitch to add to the arsenal that has some movement.

Im still on the side of the fence that the curve is thrown different then the fastball...

The term "knuckle curve" actually refers to (at least) two very different pitches.

One is thrown like a fastball with the index finger tucked. The extension of the index finger creates the top spin (kind of as with a standard knuckle ball). As a result, this pitch does not put excessive strain on the elbow.

The other, sometimes known as a spike curve, is thrown like a curveball (and is really just a different way of gripping a curveball). In this case, the tip of the index finger digs into the ball. This is the pitch that is thrown by Mike Mussina. This pitch can put extra strain on the elbow by requiring the pitcher to supinate their forearm to get the topspin.

coachric

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And a curve should be thrown like a fastball, with a curveball grip.

I promise if I grip a curveball and throw it like a fastball, it will go straight... I dont understand the logic behind your quote.

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Originally posted by deemax:
Im still on the side of the fence that the curve is thrown different then the fastball...

It is relatively easy to pronate the forearm when throwing a fastball.

In contrast, most curveballs are thrown by supinating the forearm, which increases the strain on the elbow. However, it is possible (but hard) to throw a pronation curveball.

In the Koufax pictures above, the forearms are in similar positions but are rotating in different directions. In the case of the fastball, he is pronating. In the case of the curveball his is supinating.

That is a subtle, but important, difference.

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Originally posted by Coachric:
And a curve should be thrown like a fastball, with a curveball grip.

If you do this, then you won't get the topspin.

The difference isn't just the grip.

You have to get the topspin by either...

- Snapping the fingers.
- Supinating the forearm.

Never suppinate the forearm. When you grip for a cb, you just pull the ball down. With the seams crossed and the finger snap and thumb rotation, you will get the desired effect. I was speaking of arm action, arm slot or suppination. They shouldn't be different, and I have learned that from some pretty fair pitching coaches over the years.

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Originally posted by deemax:

This is a classic curveball release with the forearm relatively supinated (palm facing the head) at the release point.

Thats definitely not suppination. Check the definition, and know that if you place the proper grip on the ball, then windup and throw like a fastball, but use the wrist and fingers to effect rotation, you will get results. I am afraid when I read some guys who are training pitchers to suppinate their forearms and to change their mechanics to throw certain pitches. Those pitches will be recognized by hitters as the player moves up in levels.

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Check the definition, and know that if you place the proper grip on the ball, then windup and throw like a fastball, but use the wrist and fingers to effect rotation, you will get results.

Maybe good advice for a changeup, but not for a curve that you actually want to break. How do you use your wrist to effect the curve without turning it (wrist)?

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Originally posted by CatchingCoach05:
IMO, no. IF (a big if) the pitch is thrown just like a fastball with proper pronation, etc.

How in the H&LL do you throw a CURVE BALL with pronation?

My GOSH!