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Lack Of Hustle In The Big Leagues

Z ZacksDad100+ posts
This is sort of a carryover of the Adam LaRoche discussion in an earlier thread.

The lack of hustle (especially in the big leagues) just blows my mind. I could just rant on about this-it is just pathetic. Forget the fact (whether or not they want it or not) these players serve as role models for the youth of today, but essentially they have a job and a lot of times give a piss poor effort. Thankfully I am not a major league owner or I would have had a heart attack by now.

I was watching The Big Idea the other week and Pete Rose was on it and they were discussing how he approached and played the game. How he basically summed it up was the first time he didn't give an all out effort, that would be the time where it definitely would have made a difference.

How much more fun would the game be to watch today if every major league ballplayer had this type of mentality.
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O Orlando1,000+ posts
You can bet on that Wink (Sorry, there's a local ordinance that there has to be a betting comment whenever Rose's name is mentioned.)

I believe professional athletes (the ones who are not particularly deep thinkers), actually do regard their life as expected and a job. We've seen players going to court to have their child support-alimony reduced during the strike because of 'financial hardship', players leaving camp because of ultimatums on their poor performance, and temper tantrums because they've been 'disrespected'. These are not the actions of people who live in the Real World.

So, not hustling or running it out (let alone not running to first on a walk a la Rose), would be defined as 'wasting energy' or 'pacing oneself'.

I'm reminded of Rube's speech in Major League II, when he was the only player who remembered how special being paid to play The Game is.
T theEH1,000+ posts
ZD
I agree with you, The Effort is not there sometimes.
Last Week Runner on 1st, Bond's pops up to 2nd against the Dodgers. does not run it out
Runner holding at 1st, Jeff Kent Drop's ball throw's to 2nd and almost get's Bond's in DP at 1st.

You know they may never miss a ball, But funny thing's happen and you have to Hustle.
Give it your all.
You have to take advantage of every Mistake the other team make's, That's the way the Game is suppose to be Played.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
[QUOTE
So, not hustling or running it out (let alone not running to first on a walk a la Rose), would be defined as 'wasting energy' or 'pacing oneself'.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and this type of thinking is just ridiculous. Yeah it may only happen once in a thousand times but do you really want to be the one to look like a dumb..s on Sportcenter. That type of thinking is used as an excuse for laziness.

Furthermore these are suppose to be "professional athletes". Athletes? Is running all out to first base 4 times in a game going to make you so drained you can't make it through the day?
O Orlando1,000+ posts
Fully agree with you, ZD. It's slacking on the job, and (to use their favorite word) disrespecting the game.

I would like to see the managers able to command that kind of dedication ---- but pro sports are an odd management-employee relationship; the employees make a great deal more than the managers, and the 'boss' is usually more expendible.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
I wonder if the lack of hustle is a by-product of todays baseball mentality. In my opinion the game has gotten a little lazy. However, now the devils advocate comes out of his shell and speaks.

On field production is directly related to contract size. Why not save yourself for those production situations by eliminating any chance of being hurt by un-necessary hustle.

As a fan you like to see hustle 100% of the time regardless if the outcome of the play is doubt. With that in mind what is going to be thought of an owner or manager who sees his star player jam an ankle or wrist on a hustling hard slide into a base on a routine play?

Contracts may be based on AB's if you're hurt, you can't play, and if you're not playing, you don't get AB's, if you don't get the AB's, you don't get that bonus and daddy needs a new Lexus and the kids need shoes.

Starting positions in many cases are not secure, if you go down because you pushed the envelope for an unnecessary reason and a hot player comes in, you may now be the backup.

Due to conditioning many players are structurally built to the breaking point. At 100% hustle years ago a player was within the "human tolerance" zone. Today at 100% the body may be at the physiological threshold. There goes that hammy, why was he going 100% on a 1 hopper to 2b?

To the fan, player, or management the last place you want to see a name on is the DL so make your plays and don't push it.


Yes there are those who loaf on plays, but they also seem to pay the price when it falls into that "lazy bonehead" catagory.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
On field production is directly related to contract size. Why not save yourself for those production situations by eliminating any chance of being hurt by un-necessary hustle.

How do you know it is un-necessary?

As a fan you like to see hustle 100% of the time regardless if the outcome of the play is doubt. With that in mind what is going to be thought of an owner or manager who sees his star player jam an ankle or wrist on a hustling hard slide into a base on a routine play?

What's going through their mind-how about "you know he really hustled on that play".

Contracts may be based on AB's if you're hurt, you can't play, and if you're not playing, you don't get AB's, if you don't get the AB's, you don't get that bonus and daddy needs a new Lexus and the kids need shoes.

Poor players-what will they ever do-maybe they only make 2 mil this year instead of 3.

Starting positions in many cases are not secure, if you go down because you pushed the envelope for an unnecessary reason and a hot player comes in, you may now be the backup.

Once again-how do you know for a fact that it is unnecessary?

Due to conditioning many players are structurally built to the breaking point. At 100% hustle years ago a player was within the "human tolerance" zone. Today at 100% the body may be at the physiological threshold. There goes that hammy, why was he going 100% on a 1 hopper to 2b?

What conditioning? How do you know what the body will "tolerate" if you don't push it?

To the fan, player, or management the last place you want to see a name on is the DL so make your plays and don't push it.

Make your plays and don't push it? WTH-I assure you they didn't make it to the big leagues with that sort of attitude!


Yes there are those who loaf on plays, but they also seem to pay the price when it falls into that "lazy bonehead" catagory.
Last edited by ZacksDad
rz1rz15,000+ posts
ZachsDad,
First off I want to qualify the fact that my earlier reply is not my opinion, just another way to look at the issue. There must be a different thought process out there because there sure are a lot of pro players that don't hustle. My question is why? There must be an acceptable answer to management because it happens all the time. I don't think lack of hustle is what bothers everyone, I think it is the lack of concentration.

The only problem I have is that when we say "hustle" a we think of, and compare other players to Pete Rose. Not fair. Pete Rose was a lucky man to have lasted as long as he did because of how he played the game. For someone who played with such reckless abandon he eluded many injuries.

If Pete Rose would have had a couple injuries early in his career because of his hustle on the basebaths he would have been remembered as "injury prone".
Last edited by rz1
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
rz1

I don't see how it is unfair to compare every baseball player to Rose. We are not asking for everyone to be as good a hitter (something they only have partial control over) we are asking for the ballplayers to give 100% effort all the time (which is something they do have control of and have the ability to do). Only 2 reasons you don't do something #1 You don't know how (which they all do because I assure you they did it in high school, college, etc) or #2 You choose not too (which is what applys here).

But ok-I'll buy into your point. But I ask you this-how many ballplayers give even an 80% effort ALL OF THE TIME?
rz1rz15,000+ posts
ZD,

My 100% is not the same as Petes 100%, or your 100%. Giving your 100% is directly related to intensity, and an individuals intensity is not measurable. If you look on your sons baseball team and you see the most intense kid out there giving 100% all the time, then you look at a kid who is a little more laid back but is always giving 100%. Now ask a stranger of the 2, who's hustling more? That stranger is going to pick the intense kids play, and will assume that the kid who is more laid back is not playing at that level. That is why you cannot compare Rose to other players.
quote:
But I ask you this-how many ballplayers give even an 80% effort ALL OF THE TIME?

I watch the Milwaukee Brewers as much as I can and this year I have yet to see a player "dog it". Do they give 100% of them selves all the time. Doubt it. But when I go to work I do not give 100% all the time, as a parent I do not give 100% all the time, as a husband I've been told often I do not give 100% all the time Wink. Anyone who says they give 100% all the time, is doing nothing but giving you 100% of bullshet right now.
Last edited by rz1
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
rz1

Believe you me-I understand the perception of intensity. Hell I experience it everyday being an extremely type "A" personality. Most people until they get to know me think I am mad all the time (which is totally untrue). Was Rose the most intense player of all time? I don't know-he was the most intense I saw. But a player not being as intense as Rose is no excuse to "trot" to 1st on a ground ball or a pop fly. A personal belief of mine is if you have to make an excuse you are probably in the wrong. You never have to make an excuse for doing the "right" thing.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by theEH:
It's when you get Lazy and turn it on and off, that's will get you Hurt.


This couldn't be a more true statement.

I have always been somewhat fast and been able to run both long and short distances(not get off on a I use to tangent but......). As a senior in high school I ran 4.46. Fast forward 15 yrs.

Always been in the gym and generally end my workout with treadmill time. So as Zack has started to grow he has wanted to get faster. So we go to the track to run sprints. I stretch, warm up, etc. So we start to run 40's-I didn't even manage one because of the 'ole pulled hamstring.

Point being if I had run all out sprints for the last 15 years that probably wouldn't have been an issue. However I chose to trot on the treadmill (like most players do going to 1st on a ground ball) and look what happened.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
I too am a type A and until I met some AA personalities I wondered why I was often mis-understood. These guys made my skin crawl to the point of potential violence because of their intensity. My wife, with a smirk on her face said to me "what's the problem, they a little too intense for you and you refuse to live up to their expectations?". I caught the drift and now am of the thinking that you have to be resonsible for your own actions and I am not here to judge others.

Most players made it to the bigs because of their talent, a few made it there because of their intensity, hustle, and fortitude. There is no cookie cutter makeup of a professional player. There will never be another Pete, or for that fact another Manny, but they all have their place, and yours, and my expectations of them will not change that.
T theEH1,000+ posts
Do you remember when Rose was playing with the Phillies,
And the ball bounced off another player's Glove and was about to hit the ground.
Who was there to make the Differance, That's right Charlie Hustle.
Do you Remember not to long ago when the Yankee's were Playing the Oakland A's, and an Errant Throw to Home.
Who was there to save the Day, Another Baby Charlie Hustle
Named Derek Jeter. With a catch and flip to the Catcher for the Tag out at Home.

That's the Differance between Good and Great. the EH
rz1rz15,000+ posts
ESPN's web gems has great plays every night by guys playing the game the way it should be played. What sticks out in our mind is the occaional player who we usually don't care for to begin with, who does not run out a play, and then we catagorize todays players as being lazy. I don't buy it. That player has been in the game since it's existance. Now with media covering every play, by every team, every day, it just seems to stick out more
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
I am not "older"-I am 33. But I have been watching the Braves ever since I can remember. I am not saying that in the "old days" everyone went all out all the time-but, from my memories, players let's say 20-25 years ago (that is about as far back as I can remember) just gave more effort.

Call me crazy, but I do think baseball players, as a rule today, have just become lazy in general. They just don't try as hard today to "make it happen".

Forget ground balls and fly outs-let's take stolen bases (something that actually requires an all out effort). Stolen bases, compared to 20 years ago, have become nonexistent. Why? I don't know-it's not because the players are slower today. I wouldn't venture to say that catchers are better at throwing out runners or pitchers are better holding runners on. That leaves laziness. It just requires too much effort to sprint 90 feet after getting a single and trotting to 1st.

Or maybe it is because they know the person behind them will hit a home run so why "waste" the energy.
dad10dad10100+ posts
I don't know . . . I don't think things have changed much . . . alot of those guys from back in the 60s on the sub-par teams kinda mailed it in, the guys that went out and tied one on and showed up at the ball park the worse for wear. The more you read stories from those days, they weren't a bunch of supermen that went b**ls to the wall on every play. They had some real scrubs and slackers too. We always remember things alot rosier than they actually were.
FutureBack.MomFutureBack.Mom1,000+ posts
quote:
Call me crazy, but I do think baseball players, as a rule today, have just become lazy in general. They just don't try as hard today to "make it happen".


ZD ...
I share your perception and I think it starts at the lower amateur levels and continues into the lower pro levels.

Couple of cases in point:
(1) Son's Connie Mack coach, upon seeing his catcher hustle to the plate from the bench ... something that he and my son were expected to do on their high school team ... tells the player "What are you running for, you don't have to do that." Catcher replied, simply, "Yes I do." He and my son had been taught and were expected to hustle all the time in high school, and they did.
(2) Spring training '05 in Tucson ... husband and I are waiting to see son pitch in game against Rockies' team. Several of the players on son's team are not warming up 'hard', if you understand what I mean. 3 of the coaches are standing near the 'on deck' circle and one of them (the pitching coach for the low A team) says "I don't understand some guys ... they don't practice hard, they don't hustle (yada yada yada)". The other two were in total agreement with him, and they chatted quite extensively about the lack of hustle for many of the players ... something they couldn't understand from the expectations of their playing days. After all ... aren't these guys really 'auditioning' for a job?

Unfortunately, I think in many respects we have become a nation of mediocraty and have accepted mediocre performances from many in the job force, in politics, etc. I know when I supervised people (many years ago) that was a concern and something that was noticed by some of the harder working employees who started to question why they were working so hard when everybody else seemed to get rewarded for not putting in much effort. I couldn't disagree with them, but then, I didn't write company policy. clever-man2.gif
Last edited by FutureBack.Mom
C Coachric1,000+ posts
I remember Frank Robinson chewing on a teammate back in the 60's on an Oriole team that was winning, for not running out a pop-up. I don't remember the player, but Frank was all over him. I guess it was NBC game of the week.
I remember some dogs in the 70's as well.
The comment about the 3 coaches in A ball may speak louder than the players effort.
In the old days, the coaches would never stand around and chat about it, they would go over and do something about it. They're just as bad as the players for saying nothing.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
[ZD ...
I share your perception and I think it starts at the lower amateur levels and continues into the lower pro levels.

Couple of cases in point:
(1) Son's Connie Mack coach, upon seeing his catcher hustle to the plate from the bench ... something that he and my son were expected to do on their high school team ... tells the player "What are you running for, you don't have to do that." Catcher replied, simply, "Yes I do." He and my son had been taught and were expected to hustle all the time in high school, and they did.
(2) Spring training '05 in Tucson ... husband and I are waiting to see son pitch in game against Rockies' team. Several of the players on son's team are not warming up 'hard', if you understand what I mean. 3 of the coaches are standing near the 'on deck' circle and one of them (the pitching coach for the low A team) says "I don't understand some guys ... they don't practice hard, they don't hustle (yada yada yada)". The other two were in total agreement with him, and they chatted quite extensively about the lack of hustle for many of the players ... something they couldn't understand from the expectations of their playing days. After all ... aren't these guys really 'auditioning' for a job?

Unfortunately, I think in many respects we have become a nation of mediocraty and have accepted mediocre performances from many in the job force, in politics, etc. I know when I supervised people (many years ago) that was a concern and something that was noticed by some of the harder working employees who started to question why they were working so hard when everybody else seemed to get rewarded for not putting in much effort. I couldn't disagree with them, but then, I didn't write company policy. clever-man2.gif


I see it too with my sons teams. He is only 13 but yeah I see it happening younger and younger. The coach we have played for for 3 years however is not like this and we are very thankful to have him.

I am one of those people that (at work) really pushes (even though I find time to post HAHA). But I have always, in all of the jobs that I have had, have tried to live by one saying.....

If you do more than what you are paid to do-one day you will be paid more for what you do.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Coachric,

I couldn't agree more with your entire statement applaude. Because every game is on tv instead of a couple "games of the week" that were broadcasted years ago it magnifies what we the viewers define as being lazy.
quote:
In the old days, the coaches would never stand around and chat about it, they would go over and do something about it.

Isn't that what they are getting paid for? Then take it up the ladder to those who hire and critique coaches, Who's more to blame? As fans many people look at who's visible, the players.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Isn't that what they are getting paid for? Then take it up the ladder to those who hire and critique coaches, Who's more to blame? As fans many people look at who's visible, the players.


Should the coaches be held accountable for NOT holding the players accountable-ABSOLUTELY.

But ultimately laziness is a choice and not the coaches "fault". Let's compare it to being fat. You pay a personal trainer 50, 75, 100 an hour (in some cases more). But you only show up physically for 1/2 the workouts (and mentally only 1/2 of the 1/2). And you drink sodas, eat fried food, and go to the all you can eat buffet on the weekends and wonder why you aren't getting skinnier. IT'S NOT THE TRAINERS FAULT-IT IS A CHOICE YOU MAKE.
Z ZacksDad100+ posts
Watching my glorious Braves last night.

Renteria hits a high chopper to the pitcher and takes off in a hurry-then looks up and sees the 1B come over to the bag and goes into the atypical major league trot.

Pitcher had a hard time getting the ball out of his glove. He gets thrown out by a step.

Hustle can (and does) make a difference.

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