lack of playing experience for coaches

While I don't know the college playing experience of local high school coaches, I suspect that the politics (i.e., headaches) of coaching in high school is a reason why there aren't more 'qualified' coaches at the high school levels. I would like to see more young faces in coaching, but not sure that will happen.

My guess is that programs sometimes get 'whoever' to simply fill the position. I think we all would be surprised to hear how few applicants ADs get for some of these high school coaching vacancies - across all sports.

I'm interested to see why you draw the correlation between being a great coach and a great player. The graveyard of failed coaches in MLB, the minors, and colleges is littered with guys who were great players who had no ability to coach and teach the many little fundamentals of the game, and because of that - failed miserably. If your assertion was correct, then Tony Gwinn's college team would win the College World Series every year.

In my opinion, a successful coach at any level has to be a student of the game, a great teacher, and someone who will motivate their players and make the sacrifice necessary to prepare their teams completely to compete at whatever level they're playing at. You'll find people who are incredibly athletically gifted who can barely spell their name. That will never make them a great coach. Possessing the knowledge, and having the athletic gift is no guarantee that they can relate that to a player.

I see a bit of an arrogance - for lack of a better word at every level of baseball towards the level below. Professional teams seem to want no part of having successful college coaches in their ranks; Large college programs seem to want no part of having successful high school coaches in their ranks; and successful high school programs do likewise with successful youth/travel coaches. The man who really pointed this out to me was Ron Polk who was wildly successful at the college level. Coach Polk could never seem to get any type of an audience at the MLB level despite the fact that he was in reality much more qualified than most coaches anywhere. I see it at a local level as well with our own Bernie Walter at Arundel. Coach Walter has been hugely successful at the high school level winning 10 state championships. But when the position came open at University of Maryland, it seemed that he had zero chance of getting the job. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I feel in my heart that Coach Walter would have that program much farther down the road than they are right now. But like Polk, he may never get his chance. My own personal coaching hero, Paul Merrill, should have gone on to coach at the college level. These men just flat-out KNOW the game, and they know how to manage it, and most of all, they know how to TEACH it.

The great thing about baseball is tradition. The worst thing about baseball is... tradition. "This is the way we've always done it" isn't always the best rationale for why things are done a certain way. I recommend reading "Money Ball" and "The Book on the Book" if you have some reading time. They challenge a lot of time honored traditions in baseball and really make you re-think things as related to the game.

The second poster also reminded me that MPSSAA guidelines state that Maryland High School ADs are required to hire teachers first above more qualified non-teachers. Literally, Joe Torrey could apply for a coaching position at Main Street, MD. High School, and if a teacher who had almost zero experience coaching baseball wanted the position, Joe Torrey would not get the job.

A good topic...I will throw my two cents in there as well...

Does an MBA degree directly lead to a successul business leader ? Does MCSE certication make an MCSE good for any organization ? Does the naval academy make you a top notch officer that anyone woul follow ? Does a retired football player make the best coach ?

One of baseball's best GM's, Billy Beane was a failure of a baseball player....

I think it has more to do with being a great leader than being an ex player....As well as being a student of the game...

I am proud of my coaching record...I have coached softball, baseball, football, s****r, and basketball to all age grous from 5 to unlimited both men and women....What I tried to do more often than not was to relate to the players I had on a team that allowed them to know who I was, what I stood for, and garnered resepect for my coaches, the game, and myself. Most importantly I learned, I soaked up every bit of knowledge from everyone I could, I read, I watched, I grew my knowledge...

It is very similar to what I do every day managing people...Let them know who you are, what you are about, give them a voice, help them learn and develop, etc...All this can be done at the same time one can be an expert on the statistics behind the game, game situations, etc....Once those players are on the field, you are a guide more than anything else...They need to deliver....

So have I played organized sports ? Yes

Do I beleive you need a certain level (highschool, college, pros, etc...) to be an effective coach ? No, there are far more important things than that, at least in my mind....

Ok there are my two cents...

Well I think Ringer may have misunderstood me a bit. I do not think you need to be a hugely successful player to be a good coach. If you look at the great managers, many if not all, played at the major league level. The best players do not often make the best managers or coaches, but you need to get to a certain level of the the game to be able to see all the intricacies at that level. The high school level is more intricate than the rec./travel level, college more than high school and so on. I have read both books you have mentioned and agree with many parts of each. I do feel that new ways of looking at the game need to be created and old ways need to be challenged and not always looked at as gospel. My point is that you can't learn the thought process of a player, the mental side of the game, the stresses and pressures of the game from a book or seminar. You have to have experienced the game at a certain level to help players further themselves. Teachers are given first priority in high school jobs, but they need to be qualified - what that means is a mystery in most cases. Again, I know more about howard county than any others - hence I use them in my examples more than others. Mike Lerner and Brian Culley TEACH the game and are two of the best young coaches around. Wins and losses are important, but look at how a coaches players play the game! Look at if they are surprised by a situation, look if they panic or know what to do in any given situation. Hammond, where Lerner coaches, does have talent. But Lerner has taken raw talent, with no real prior coaching, and turned them into real college prospects. They went from 8-12 to 14-3 and a county championship. They have a real shot of winning it all next year. Even more important than that - they play the game the right way, communicate with each other, and have been taught discipline and fundamentals.

Look at umpires that have never played the game. They may know the rules, but if they never played the game, they miss many of the fine points.

quote:

Originally posted by hocobaseballfan:
Well I think Ringer may have misunderstood me a bit. I do not think you need to be a hugely successful player to be a good coach. If you look at the great managers, many if not all, played at the major league level. The best players do not often make the best managers or coaches, but you need to get to a certain level of the the game to be able to see all the intricacies at that level. The high school level is more intricate than the rec./travel level, college more than high school and so on. I have read both books you have mentioned and agree with many parts of each. I do feel that new ways of looking at the game need to be created and old ways need to be challenged and not always looked at as gospel. My point is that you can't learn the thought process of a player, the mental side of the game, the stresses and pressures of the game from a book or seminar. You have to have experienced the game at a certain level to help players further themselves. Teachers are given first priority in high school jobs, but they need to be qualified - what that means is a mystery in most cases. Again, I know more about howard county than any others - hence I use them in my examples more than others. Mike Lerner and Brian Culley TEACH the game and are two of the best young coaches around. Wins and losses are important, but look at how a coaches players play the game! Look at if they are surprised by a situation, look if they panic or know what to do in any given situation. Hammond, where Lerner coaches, does have talent. But Lerner has taken raw talent, with no real prior coaching, and turned them into real college prospects. They went from 8-12 to 14-3 and a county championship. They have a real shot of winning it all next year. Even more important than that - they play the game the right way, communicate with each other, and have been taught discipline and fundamentals.

Look at umpires that have never played the game. They may know the rules, but if they never played the game, they miss many of the fine points.

I believe alot of really good coaches are products of their experiences around other good coaches. Bernie Walter, Arundel, was a student of the late Walter Youse (Johnny's) for example. Lerner played for some excellent coaches in Maxey, Donovan and Mowder (to name a few). Good coaches learn from their experiences...tap on the good aspects and learn not to make the same mistakes others before them have made.

While I agree it is great when a coach can teach a player the proper cross-over step for a SS, and it may be necessary for this coach to have played SS themselves...I have seen just as many ex-pros who can't coach their way out of a paper bag. I also see two distinct differences among the coaching ranks. One group are great game managers and tacticians. The other group can teach proper mechanics of hitting, fielding and throwing. The special group of coaches are the ones who are good in both areas. Intense study and being able to communicate to the players in both verbal and non-verbal means is of paramount importance to helping a player reach their potential!

Wow, what a great discussion topic. My two cents are as follows:

1. I do believe a experienced coach is a better canidate for a coaching position then a coach with no experience. However, this does not mean in any way that the coach has to be a former collegiate/pro superstar.

2. I agree with Rick, that the pulic high school rule needs to be revamped, when the Biology teacher decides that he wants to coach the high school baseball team, but isn't really qualified to do so. This generally will take a program south real quick, thus having kids either not play, or persuing other interests.

3. I also agree that each year it becomes increasingly difficult to coach. Parents generally are the sticking point for most coaches. We tell our kids and parents in meetings that we want only the kids dealing directly with us, but it's inevitable that a parent will still cross that line. We all want what is best for our kids, but a lot of times the thing we don't want them to do is grow up and have adult responsibilities, like conflict resolution.

3. Larry is dead on saying good coaches usually learn from great coaches. I have seen quite a few kids who are now coaching, and the ones that stand out are those whose previous experiences included playing for good coaches.

4. Larry again mentions that you can have a coach who can teach the game and others who can manage the game, and a few that can do both. My son just started coaching this past year at the JV level, and has had some great people coach him through the years, however, just coming out of college his knowledge base for teaching the game is stronger then his managing base. I mentored him this past year and may do one more year. He improved on the game management side tremendously as the year went on, but still needs some mentoring to become more in tune with the managing side.

5. Speaking from experience, the great teams that win year after year, have a couple of things going for them. First, they have a great head coach who is willing to bring assistants in that he can trust and who are knowledgable in specific facets of the game, with the same overall philosophies as the head coach, and second, a program (enrollment) that is able to handle the multiple sports a high school has to offer, or is the primary sport of that school. This can also be accomplished if the high school has a good baseball coach.

In conclusion, you will probably get quite a bit of hits on this, from some qualified individuals, who have already posted on here. Hopefully Howard County will see more good coaches coming your way, because nothing is worse then having a talented team with a non qualified coach. Please excuse any typos. Good luck.....

Set made a great point about parents. Parents have to sign a parent permission form for a player to tryout. In this form it states that who makes a team is a coaches decision and playing time is a coaches decision. This point, while in black and white, is seldom followed by parents and seldom supported by administration. Why is it that parents feel coaches make decisions based on personal feelings instead of playing those who earn their position? This is a MAJOR sticking point for new coaches. Until parents realize that they cannot try and bully coaches - this will continue to be a problem. There have even been lawsuits against coaches! It is no wonder why so many players are not accountable - their parents do not even hold them accountable. Let the parents be parents, let the kids play and earn their spot, and let the coaches coach! When this happens, if this happens - the world of high school baseball will be a better place. Meanwhile I am not holding my breath.

I agree this is a good topic. I think the key to being a good coach is willing to be a student of the game. I can only speak for myself, but I go to every clinic I can. I have talked with other coaches who think they know it all or are willing to stay as is. The day I think I still can't learn something will be the day I hang it up. Also assistants are a critical part. I have been lucky to have had great asst. coaches. The assist. I have would make a fantastic head coach if he wanted to be. The key is you have to trust your assist 100% and let him do his thing. I have had other assist who moved on and took over other programs and done well. I still see some programs where the head coach seems afraid to bring someone on board who might show them up so to speak. As for the teacher part there are ways to sidestep that if you want to. And Larry is correct being around great coaches is a vaulable resource. I have played for some of the best around and and against them. I will admit I have stolen alot of the qualities from those fine men over the years.

quote:

Originally posted by Spike:
I agree this is a good topic. I think the key to being a good coach is willing to be a student of the game. I can only speak for myself, but I go to every clinic I can. I have talked with other coaches who think they know it all or are willing to stay as is. The day I think I still can't learn something will be the day I hang it up. Also assistants are a critical part. I have been lucky to have had great asst. coaches. The assist. I have would make a fantastic head coach if he wanted to be. The key is you have to trust your assist 100% and let him do his thing. I have had other assist who moved on and took over other programs and done well. I still see some programs where the head coach seems afraid to bring someone on board who might show them up so to speak. As for the teacher part there are ways to sidestep that if you want to. And Larry is correct being around great coaches is a vaulable resource. I have played for some of the best around and and against them. I will admit I have stolen alot of the qualities from those fine men over the years.

I ain't stealing Spike...you are simply copying success!

If you stop learning or trying to learn new techniques it is time to get out of coaching. My original point was, you have to have a point of reference playing to be able to teach the techniques. It would be like teaching a class with a lesson plan left by a teacher of a subject you have never taken. You could teach the lesson, but you would not have a reference point to go from. Finding good assistants is another problem. If they are not a teacher, the administration has very little tolerance for them or any mistakes they make. The head coach has to have that trust because he is ultimately responsible for them. You just do not see too many assistants with longevity. I think in Howard County the longest tenured assistant is Steve Kavakos at Hammond - 9 years with Lerner. There are some great young assistants - Petrika, Atholton, Deuchler, Centennial - although he did not coach this year, and some older guys coming back like Merson at Marriots Ridge.

I was unaware Steve K. was coaching with Mike. Steve was a heck of a player years ago. Brian P. and Matt D. were two of the better players HoCo has produced in the past 15 years.

One of the problems I see going forward with the current coach hiring rules that are in place is the issue of fiscal responsibility toward family. HoCo has become almost unaffordable for a young couple where one or both of the parents is a newer teacher. Asking them to coach a sport (adding 3 or 4 hours extra each day for 3 months) for what amounts to about $2000 after taxes is asking an awful lot.

The demands on coaches are extensive. Coaches are asked to do more and more for no money. That is not a problem for most coaches as they coach for love of the game, but people do need to live. Do you know that the fall baseball league for Howard County that is run by Mike Lerner is done totally for free? He is up at Hammond every Saturday prepping the field and Sundays from 7AM-5PM for 2 months and gets paid $0! The league funds a scholarship for a future teacher in the name of Josh Siegert, former Long Reach player who tragically died at St. Mary's College - Lerner's alma mater. Josh is/was the son of legendary lacrosse coach Mike Siegert.

Frederick County Coaches & Where They Played College Ball:

Phil Rhodes (Frederick High) - Wooster College (DIII)
Jim Foit (Thomas Johnson) - Virginia Tech (DI)
Mike Franklin (Catoctin) - Salisbury (DIII)
Jeremy Long (Walkersville) - FIU (DI)
Mike Frownfelter (Urbana) - WVU (DI)
Roger Dawson (Brunswick) - Shepherd (DII)
Jason Smith (Tuscarora) - Mercyhurst (DII)
Chris O'Connor (Linganore) - Not Sure
Andy Baker (Middletown) - Not Sure

Frederick county seems like they value athletics. The only coach I am familiar with there is Coach Rhodes. He is as good as it gets - teaches the game, great game management, great people skills, and has class. He is as good as it gets if you ask me.

Chris O'Connor played at DII Mars Hill.....