Land on ball of foot or heel?

There are some pitchers who land on thier heel first and are very good at what they do, but its not because they land on their heel first. To teach someone to play any aspect of sport on thier heels is foolish (unless your doing squats, but I have a tough time thinking of anything else). I have seen videos of pitchers landing the ball of thier foot first, at the same time, and heel to ball. Sometimes pitching coaches run out of things to teach and need to force feed useless theories to keep parents comeing back. I your son has a great delivery and a pitching coach recognizes that and says "hey, you look great, just keep getting stronger and continue to mature!" how many more lessons are you going to pay him for. To wrap this up, if your son doesnt naturally land on his heel first, and someone is trying to teach him to do this then you need to get instruction somewere else.
peace

Concur with dm. I would teach landing on the ball of the foot. Less jarring impact.

As dm pointed out, some successful pitchers land on the heel. But there are all sorts of mechanics out there. The question is what to teach.

I have never heard a rationale for teaching a pitcher to land on the heel. Would be interested in hearing one.

quote:

Originally posted by Royals:
Which is the proper landing of the left foot for a right-hand pitcher? Should the pitcher land on the ball of the left foot and pull or should the heel of the left foot land first? Pitching coach is trying to have pitchers land on the heel.

I prefer that my guys land fairly flat-footed. Whether that means heel-first or ball-first doesn't matter that much.

However, I don't like them to land too much on either their heel or the ball of their foot.

Here are some photos of what different pros do.

Hey, great photos, Painguy. Who are those guys, btw?

I think your point is correct also.

Top to bottom, Janssen, Maddux. Moyer, Oswalt and Santana.

Oh, I see. Great photos on your site.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/R...avoriteExamples.html

Feller looks pretty flat footed in throwing well over 100 mph in this 1946 video.

http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/1617567_028.do

I still can't get over how relaxed he looks....more like a toss than a monster heave. The exploding wood frame accompanied by a gasp from the crowd and his cocky swagger were nice touches.

Generally it is better to land flat footed.

quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
Oh, I see. Great photos on your site.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/R...avoriteExamples.html

in that link, is the difference between what he likes n doesnt like, reaching back and "short armers"?

Great clip micdsguy. Where do you get those rare clips like that? BB knows his pitchers. I could only identify three of them.

Shep's opinion: toe to heel is best landing technique but flat-footed is better than heel-to-toe. The lower half isn't working properly at heel to toe which can bring premature undue stress on shoulder capsule trying to make up the difference in producing power and more armspeed that the lower half and core usually produce with toe to heel.

One drill I used with much success with pitchers as a Head HS Varsity Baseball Coach and Assistant DIV I coach that I learned from a full-time Atlanta Braves scout, was the coca-cola crate drill. This has been a while back, so bear with me. I haven't seen very many of these ole wooden crates we used back then lately, but if you can find some wooden crates that may vary in sizes, you can make them work. Here's how ya do the drill: 1)Have pitcher work from stretch or full-windup 2)The objective is to land just on the other side of the crate with landing foot, "whichever" windup chosen for drill. In fact, you can do both on alternate days. 3) The crate should be adjusted in height to whatever feels comfortable in natural habitat of pitching mechanics. 4) The step over the crate in order to land on the other side will feel arkward at first because it forces the toe to land first on the other side of crate when landing. 5) After a while, the repetitions will help the brain attain the muscle memory necessary to accomplish goal of toe-to-heel and the body will react without thinking. It may take some longer than others but worth the time for helping in the area of increasing velocity. The lower half produces the power in the core and the toe to heel landing assists in activation of the strongest muscles in the body. Ask Jon Doyle and bet cha he will agree. Just my .02
peace shep

painguy quote:

quote:

I prefer that my guys land fairly flat-footed. Whether that means heel-first or ball-first doesn't matter that much.

painguy,

Do you have any videoclips of how you might demonstrate this flat-footed technique to "your guys"?

It might be better just to stick with teaching and not demonstrating.

Those are some very good still pics and video clips you have shared here with us here, and we appreciate that peace shep

perfect landing

Once again, this young man demonstrates the way to land on the lead foot. He also demonstrates real good head position while throwing a ball too. He has been giving lessons on TV every 5 days for about 20 years, and if you have cable, the lessons are free.

quote:

He has been giving lessons on TV every 5 days for about 20 years, and if you have cable, the lessons are free.

Would those free lessons be coming from a future HOFamer?

That's the clip of Maddux I spoke of BB. Thank you sir for posting it again. By the end of the weekend, I will probably watch it at least a hundred more times! That is a great clip of Maddog.
Thanks again BB! peace shep

quote:

Great clip micdsguy. Where do you get those rare clips like that?

YouTube has a few. Best ones are at:
http://www.thoughtequity.com/
Lots of 1930-60s world series newsreels. Enter keywords in search box at top left.

This three seconds of Christy Mathewson from 1907 (repeated three times) is my favorite.

http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/331144_062.do

Shep,

I don't think landing on the heal is a problem in and of itself. Instead, I think it is an indicator of some other deficiency.

Isn't your coca-cola crate drill really just forcing the pitcher to change some other aspect of his mechanics that has bearing on his ability to land on the front of his foot? If you agree with this, what do you think is that other aspect?

Roger Said:

quote:

Shep, I don't think landing on the heal is a problem in and of itself. Instead, I think it is an indicator of some other deficiency. Isn't your coca-cola crate drill really just forcing the pitcher to change some other aspect of his mechanics that has bearing on his ability to land on the front of his foot? If you agree with this, what do you think is that other aspect?

My Response(Shep):
The toe-to-heel drill will help pitcher use proper trunk rotation in backside drive with leg and hip in trunk rotation of acceleration phase. It will also help pitcher stay in-line with feet, hips and shoulders. The deficiency that could be the direct result of landing heel to toe could be a weak rotational center as in the abs, lats, glutes and hips. A pitcher who has weak stomach, back(lower), tail and abdominal muscles will try to make up for poor trunk rotation by flying out early causing the upperhalve to work independently without the much needed help of backside drive with leg and hip in the acceleration phase. This phase is empirical in the overall future potential number given to the pitcher for velocity on fastball, for example. If I go to a park to evaluate a pitcher and see "everything flying open" in a pitcher's acceleration phase on FBs, that OFP number will not be good. On the other hand, if I see a pitcher who lands toe to heel or flat-footed with good trunk rotation, I know this pitcher will get stronger as he develops and grows, which in turn, will elevate velocity. Repetition will strengthen his core and center because the vital large body muscles are actively involved in the delivery.

In conclusion, in the acceleration phase, armspeed is a vital component and cannot be achieved without proper trunk rotation involving the "strongest muscles in the body". The crate drill will help activate these muscles and correct improper use of body in delivery.

Very good Roger, glad you asked me to expound upon the purpose of the toe-to-heel drill. Hope some of this helps out and proves to be useful. peace shep

So, if I understood your reply correctly, I heard you say stepping over the crate and landing on the front half of the foot requires the body to be in a different position than does landing on the heal and that position is better for transferring energy up the kinetic chain.

Thanks for the reply!

In addition to transferring energy up the kinetic chain from the front ball and toes of the foot, I would say that the crate drill helps the pitcher remain on the proper directional line toward target by keeping the frontside closed and forcing the pitcher to actively engage the "strongest muscles in the body" by using lower half to accomplish the step over the crate. This step over the crate can also be flat footed as well as front half of foot(toes and front half of foot). I used 2-Liter crates which were a little deeper, around a couple of inches, in order to force the toe-to-heel action because it's more difficult to step over flat-footed while next to impossible to step over landing heel-to-toe while in windup or stretch in delivery. This forced body movement of toe-to-heel will assist even the most advanced pitchers to remain conscious of the core and center involving those "power muscles", especially right now going into spring training, IMHO. peace shep

To prevent confusion on how to step over the crate, post an example of the drill.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
In addition to transferring energy up the kinetic chain from the front ball and toes of the foot, I would say that the crate drill helps the pitcher remain on the proper directional line toward target by keeping the frontside closed and forcing the pitcher to actively engage the "strongest muscles in the body" by using lower half to accomplish the step over the crate. This step over the crate can also be flat footed as well as front half of foot(toes and front half of foot). I used 2-Liter crates which were a little deeper, around a couple of inches, in order to force the toe-to-heel action because it's more difficult to step over flat-footed while next to impossible to step over landing heel-to-toe while in windup or stretch in delivery. This forced body movement of toe-to-heel will assist even the most advanced pitchers to remain conscious of the core and center involving those "power muscles", especially right now going into spring training, IMHO. peace shep

Shep, Most big league pitchers will land with the heel touching down before the toe, It is closer to being a flat footed landing, but the heel is still touching down first.I would pass on a drill that does not let this happen.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Most big league pitchers will land with the heel touching down before the toe, It is closer to being a flat footed landing, but the heel is still touching down first.

I agree.

BBScout Quote

quote:

Shep, most big league pitchers will land with the heel touching down before the toe, It is closer to being a flat footed landing, but the heel is still touching down first.

For me, the key word to justify the toe-to-heel school of thought is what BB described as "most". There are still some ole school veterans that use somewhat primitive methods and drills that may be unorthodoxed to those with access to high dollar training devices and equipment. Just trying to help some of you out there with the drill that helped myself, as well as dozens of others. I'll stick with the toe-to-heel school and if we come up short in the muscle memory through repetition, maybe we will at least correct to what a perfect landing is described by BB as being flat-footed. Just for me, a pitcher with the over exxagerated heel-to-toe is like waving good bye to me as I exit the gate Shep's humble perogative to stand fast!
peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
For me, the key word to justify the toe-to-heel school of thought is what BB described as "most". There are still some of ole school veterans that use somewhat primitive methods and drills that may be unorthodoxed to those with access to high dollar training devices and equipment.

I agree that I have seen toe to heel, but most of the great pitchers (e.g. Maddux, Ryan, Clemens, etc.) landed mostly flat but heel first.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
BBScout Quote

quote:

Shep, most big league pitchers will land with the heel touching down before the toe, It is closer to being a flat footed landing, but the heel is still touching down first.

For me, the key word to justify the toe-to-heel school of thought is what BB described as "most". There are still some ole school veterans that use somewhat primitive methods and drills that may be unorthodoxed to those with access to high dollar training devices and equipment. Just trying to help some of you out there with the drill that helped myself, as well as dozens of others. I'll stick with the toe-to-heel school and if we come up short in the muscle memory through repetition, maybe we will at least correct to what a perfect landing is described by BB as being flat-footed. Just for me, a pitcher with the over exxagerated heel-to-toe is like waving good bye to me as I exit the gate Shep's humble perogative to stand fast!
peace shep

Greg Maddux

Shep, Once again I use Maddux as a model.

As far as walking out of the park when a guy is landing "Exaggerated" on his heel, Mark Prior did this and there were not any scouts walking out of the park. I never liked his landing hard on the heel, but he still went high in the 1st round.

Why don't you post some clips of guys landing on their toe first. Not still pics, but video.It would be interesting to see how many you can round up.

quote:

As far as walking out of the park when a guy is landing "Exaggerated" on his heel, Mark Prior did this and there were not any scouts walking out of the park. I never liked his landing hard on the heel, but he still went high in the 1st round.

BBScout, Cap'n and HSBBW board:

They also inherited a lot of problems with keeping him healthy, a lot like Mark Wohlers. Don't think I need to round up videos because they've all been posted at one point in time or another, here at HSBBW or other boards. BB, you have 'em all so why don't you post a few? Not backing out of a challenge, never have, but your full-time job involves constantly breaking down clips through the use of videoanalysis of professional prospects with about 20+ years of accumululated clips and knowledge from those clips in your storehouse. I respect that. It would be much easier for you to prove your point than I to prove mine do to your vast storehouse.


Cap'n , don't have any clips of drill. Your knowledgeable, just be creative, you'll figure it out if you just get a crate and place it on the ground at your next workout.

My experience with the crate drill was a hands-on experience that I saw direct results from in my own pitching mechanics and use of lower half as well as a couple dozen others who were Brave enough to at least try it. Someone could prolly make a million bucks off of this idea. It works!! I'm serious!!

My storehouse contains other things as well as baseball interests with my primary source of income coming from serving the public as a civil servant in a school as a science teacher. Intrinsic rewards of making a difference are great, as a result of teaching in a full=time classroom, for about half those years BB you have in teaching baseball, at the highest levels, which by the way, I also believe is an admirable job in the area of being a role model and serving the public to offer opportunities to our youth. I will be figuring midterm grades for 165 students for the next few days and will check in every now and then. As usual, JMHO. Nothing's written in stone peace, Shep

I like a scout who stands his ground in what he believes. Don't see BBScout or Shepster back peddling and both seem to have valid points. Both are good for this board and good for baseball.

Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer

quote:

Cap'n , don't have any clips of drill. Your knowledgeable, just be creative, you'll figure it out if you just get a crate and place it on the ground at your next workout. Maybe Coach Chris will make a clip for us for demonstration purposes.

My exact reason for addressing this topic. IMO that landing on the toe first (or last) is not a problem in itself, but I can't imagine using any object to obstruct the stride leg/foot going into foot plant in order to achieve a toe first landing. So, I would still like to see a clip of a student that performs this drill to your liking. That way I can see what you promote/accept as desirable lower body mechanics going into foot plant. Dead on front view and a side view would be best.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
... but I can't imagine using any object to obstruct the stride leg/foot going into foot plant in order to achieve a toe first landing.
... That way I can see what you promote/accept as desirable lower body mechanics going into foot plant.

I can't imagine that either .

quote:

Shep, Most big league pitchers will land with the heel touching down before the toe, It is closer to being a flat footed landing, but the heel is still touching down first.I would pass on a drill that does not let this happen.

Scout, My thoughts exactly. If someone wanted to teach toe to heel....I would get a new instructor.

It is my experience that toe to heel can cause a pitcher to lose some forward momentum by jamming the hips and not allowing the hips to get over the foot.

P.S. I enjoy reading your posts.

Koufax did not land heel first. Neither did Gibson. Ryan landed flat, not heel first. As did Feller, if I recall properly.

The risk I see in teaching heal to toe is that the pitcher could start reaching with is leg and land solidly on the heal which would prevent the body from continuing to the plate in a fluid motion. Teaching a pitcher to land with the toe down will actually allow the pitcher to land flat footed due to the slope of the mound. I like to see a pitcher land flat footed to allow the body to continue to the plate and prevent the pitcher from spinning off his pitches.

I have the utmost of respect for everyone of you baseball veterans. You are all my heroes and I am honored that you would even address my "crate drill".

Cap'n, you're the most. A great teacher, instructor, player, etc. etc. Can't say enough about your contributions as well as Midlo Dad, BBScout, Bighit, Bobblehead, Texan, Hsballcoach, HOF1962, roger Thomas, deemack , micdsguy, royals, SDbaseball, painguy, and plenty of others here. You are all my heroes and together we can achieve greatness in instruction of others! No doubt! I am convinced of that after reading all of your posts in the past years with high level banter.

With the feelings of my thoughts towards you baseball professionals, I do believe we have a mixed bag, so why don't we all just try the crate drill out on a few pitchers this spring and see what kind of results we get. I have an appointment with a player in around two weeks and will get a clip if I can locate a crate that is suitable. It does not have to be a coca-cola crate, any crate will do as long as it's not taller than 4 inches when placed on the ground. This will cause too drastic of a change. It's better to start with about four inches and work your way down to 2-3 inches in depth of box after foot has corrected the "flapper" wave of the landing foot. I call it the bye-bye wave

One thing I need to place emphasis on is the objective of this drill. OBJECTIVE: Train pitcher/athlete to engage lower body by activating largest muscles in body in motion of delivery by keeping the landing foot as a integral part of the complete windup.

HSballcoach said it is best in his description of toe to heel.

HSBallcoach said: "The risk I see in teaching heal to toe is that the pitcher could start reaching with is leg and land solidly on the heal which would prevent the body from continuing to the plate in a fluid motion. Teaching a pitcher to land with the toe down will actually allow the pitcher to land flat footed due to the slope of the mound. I like to see a pitcher land flat footed to allow the body to continue to the plate and prevent the pitcher from spinning off his pitches."

HSBallcoach, you sir are absolutely correct IMHO.

In conclusion, I see the point cap'n makes in his concern as far as the obstruction of the crate, but remember, the pitcher will only use the crate drill for correction purposes of a crucial delivery fault which will increase power in the core of the rotation. You can look at the cap'n avatar and see the low path of the landing foot which would be impeded by a crate. That clip in your avatar cap'n is a one-in-a-million player who probably never had the need to correct a mechanical flaw such as the "flapper" bye-bye wave of the landing foot. A huge majority of pitchers do need to train the body to work to their advantage through drills such as this because they are just not born with the tall, lanky and rangy body such as this with tremendous flexibilty and natural abilty That's a blessing cap'n, and you work with a lot like that, I know. This drill is for pitchers who are making early changes at all levels to better utilize body stength and increase velocity as well as control of pitches. A center that stays together, stayslasts forever-Shepism
peace

quote:

Originally posted by SDbaseball2209:

quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
Oh, I see. Great photos on your site.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/R...avoriteExamples.html

in that link, is the difference between what he likes n doesnt like, reaching back and "short armers"?

The main thing I don't like is taking the elbows both above and behind the shoulders. I think that increases the stress on the rotator cuff. That is what Mark Prior does. It's also what Anthony Reyes does, which is why I am concerned about his long-term durability.




I don't think that taking the elbows behind, but below, the level of the shoulders is nearly as bad. That is what Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, and many others do.

I believe balance is important as well as the use of big body muscles to create the most power possible.

Whatever it takes to keep all the muscles working together as a unit in the mechanics of the delivery will produce the greatest velocity. K.I>S.S.

Longtime Player now Longtime Observer

quote:

Originally posted by HOF1962:
...the use of big body muscles to create the most power possible.

I certainly agree with this.

IMO too many people are focused on arm action (e.g. scap loading and Inverted W) and not focused enough on throwing with the body and not the arm.

It's like focusing on the tires of a car and ignoring the engine and the transmission.

At the end of the day, and as with hitting, it's better to generate energy in the large muscles of the body and then use the shoulders and arm to just funnel and transfer that energy.

bump

Just got in cap'n. Found some ole wood coca-cola crates at a few thrift stores today. $18 US dollars for one and $10 US dollars for the other. Didn't buy yet because I found some others in my garage that will work. Will probably go back and get at least one for the clip of the player I plan to demonstrate. Have you tried it yet? peace shep

quote:

Have you tried it yet? peace shep

Heck no. I've got seven inches of scar across my left knee........for real.