Leading off out of the normal baseline

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
I'm confused as to why this was ruled legal in a high school game in California, but it was. Can anyone explain?

Runners on 1st and 3rd. Runner on 1st takes lead deep to the edge of outfield grass (still on dirt, but well behind the line between 1st and 2nd). He draws a throw from the pitcher, 1st baseman chases runner at 1st while runner on 3rd breaks for home and scores. Coach protests that this is a "travesty of the game." Philisophically I tend to agree with coach, but play is allowed to stand as executed.

Why was runner on 1st allowed to take such a deep leadoff?

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Simple. There's no rule against it. And that's in every state that plays by FEDERATION rules.

Bob

As Bluezebra says it's legal. It's legal in any book that I know of, however it's not done at levels higher than HS because it would cause retalitation.

Yeah, thats what my local HS umpire friend told me too. I totally trust him, but I kinda wanted to see if the same explanation would be given by others. Interesting that this umpire told me that if the runner had stepped onto the outfield grass, he would have ruled it a "travesty of the game." He thought that would be stepping "over the line" both literally and figuratively.

Thanks for the responses.

Simply another coach who does not appreciate the game using a gimmick to his advantage because he found a loophole

Next time have the right fielder come in behind the runner and see what the runner does when the throw goes to the RF-- I do not believe there is a rule that says the throw to first has to be caught by the first baseman

Two can play the game !!!!

It is too bad that the coach does get a chance to hit--- if you know what I mean

TRhit

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Yeah, thats what my local HS umpire friend told me too. I totally trust him, but I kinda wanted to see if the same explanation would be given by others. Interesting that this umpire told me that if the runner had stepped onto the outfield grass, he would have ruled it a "travesty of the game." He thought that would be stepping "over the line" both literally and figuratively.

Thanks for the responses.

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Then your friend would have a protested game on his hands, and probably a reprimand from his association's rules chairman. I can't abide with umpires who make up rules because they don't like what happens, even though it's legal.

Bob

Bob - So you're saying you'd let him take a lead to the outfield fence if he wanted too?

IMO, that IS a travesty of the game.

So what constitutes a "travesty of the game?" I always thought an umpire had some discretion there.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Bob - So you're saying you'd let him take a lead to the outfield fence if he wanted too?

IMO, that IS a travesty of the game.

So what constitutes a "travesty of the game?" I always thought an umpire had some discretion there.

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A travesty is running the bases in reverse order, for example.

An umpire does NOT have discretion to override the rules because he/she doesn't like what a team is doing. Don't punish the offense because the defense plays on a runner who leads off in this fashion with a runner on 3B. The "D" coach has not done his job. What harm is R1 doing out in the outfield? NONE. The coach wants the umpires to do something because he hasn't done HIS job.

Bob

OK, fair enough.

I would have to say one thing that we probably disagree on - and that is that the coach who pulls "stunts" to get runs is desparate. I kind of think of it the way TR stated above. I coach young kids - I cannot spend my precious practice time trying to anticipate every loophole in the rules where coaches utilize stunts to gain advantage. I find them kind of funny to be honest. Doesn't make me mad - just wonder why they're spending their time on these things.

I only file situations like this away in my head for the time when I see it again and I will try to help my players to deal with it. No, I'm not the coach in the situation I described. Just saw it at a game.

Thanks for your explanations.

When the runner heads out towards the outfield grass and establishes his lead, he has set a new "base path". The base path is a corridor 3 feet wide from his current location to his destination, be it 2nd base or back to first.

There is nothing in the rules of baseball about staying in the corridor between first and 2nd. Sometimes a smart baserunner will setup "inside" closer to the pitcher so that it appears that he is closer to the bag than he really is.

This play that you describe has a name. It's called "Skunk in the outfield". Have your 2B move towards the runner but stay about 5-6 feet away and closer to the pitcher. Pitcher steps off and throws to the 2B player. When the runner makes his first move (either to 2nd or back to first, the 2nd bagger cuts the corner, the runner will almost always leave his "established" basepath in order to avoid the tag and you'll have an automatic out.

H3 - Thanks.

It was kind of interesting - the right fielder actually came in behind the runner. When the ball was thrown to him, the runner danced all over the place to avoid a tag - maybe within 3 feet of his established position - I can't remember. He was not called out even during the dancing to avoid.

In any case, most people I talked to about it thought the pitcher should have just pitched the ball. Don't know what the runner would have done but he would have had a long way to go to 2B. Runner on 3rd would have likely broke for home if the catcher threw to 2nd.

Who knows? - but I'd never heard it named before, and I like your defense of it best.

Bob - I should get out my rule book - but is running the bases in reverse actually spelled out as against the rules?

I'm not Bob but yes it is. Also, remember if you are going to try to throw to the second baseman or right fielder then have the pitcher step off or be close enough to make the play on the throw. If not it's a balk. This true at first only.

RULE 8.2.ART. 1...An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

All rule books have similar restrictions.

Bob

Bob - OK, so why wouldn't you just call him out for violating the rule?

So now I'm having a hard time understanding the "travesty of the game" rule.

I have seen a Pony game (umpired by HS umpires) forfeited due to "travesty of the game" because one team was wearing their uniforms in a funky way.

I have had a HS umpire tell me that he would call a runner out for "travesty of the game" if he were to run back towards home on a bunt to avoid a tag from the first baseman (this sounds like your example).

But I still don't get what a "travesty of the game" is in general. I thought that it was something that is disrespectful of the game the way it was meant to be played.

I'm really only curious, but if you or someone else can give a description of that rule rather than just specific examples, I would appreciate it.

I appreciate your patience with me on these questions. Didn't expect to end up discussing this.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Bob - I should get out my rule book - but is running the bases in reverse actually spelled out as against the rules?

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Didn't used to be, but the rule was changed in the 20's. Prior to that there are 3 documented cases of a runner "stealing first". Probably the most infamous was this case:

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From the baseballlibrary.com

One of the zaniest characters in baseball history, Schaefer is most famous for causing a rule change with one of his antics. Actually he had a practical reason for stealing first base. Playing Cleveland, the Tigers had the speed Davy Jones on third base and Schaefer on first in the ninth inning and tried a delayed double steal, but the catcher, Nig Clarke, didn't throw. Schaefer ran back to first base on the next pitch, then shouted across to Jones that he was going to second base again. The catcher, rattled, threw down to second and Jones scored the winning run. That tactic was then outlawed.

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According to popular legend, Schaefer would let out a war-hoop, jump in the air and take off for second on his steals, just to make sure the catcher knew he was running (spikes high of course, this was the old days). The baseball library is a great source for old-time history. Check it out.

The only place the word "travesty" appears in the official runs is in regards to running the bases backwards. There isn't a rule, per see that is a general catch-all rule such as "making a travesty of the game". There aren't any such grounds. The base runner at first could take his lead against the RF fence if he so desired (but I can't imagine him being that dumb).

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Bob - OK, so why wouldn't you just call him out for violating the rule?

**I'm confused. If a runner runs the bases in reverse order, he IS called out.

So now I'm having a hard time understanding the "travesty of the game" rule.

**Look up "travesty" in the dictionary.

I have seen a Pony game (umpired by HS umpires) forfeited due to "travesty of the game" because one team was wearing their uniforms in a funky way.

**Bad call. Just tell them to wear them properly.

I have had a HS umpire tell me that he would call a runner out for "travesty of the game" if he were to run back towards home on a bunt to avoid a tag from the first baseman (this sounds like your example).

**This is not my example. This is not a "travesty". It may be an out for running out of the baseline to avoid a tag, but only then.

But I still don't get what a "travesty of the game" is in general. I thought that it was something that is disrespectful of the game the way it was meant to be played.

I'm really only curious, but if you or someone else can give a description of that rule rather than just specific examples, I would appreciate it.

I appreciate your patience with me on these questions. Didn't expect to end up discussing this.

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Bob

Skunk in the outfield is a legal play.

yup....really old post, but the "skunk" still stinks......and its still legal...

justbaseball,

If you go back to June 2005 on this forum you will find a great deal of discussion & opinion on the "Skunk in the Outfield" play. (Topic: Baseline Question)

TRhit suggested throwing to the right fielder. Does this present balk possibilities since the fielder is not in the vicinity of the base?

Not if you disengage. The best thing is to ignor him.