Leads and Steals

I was always taught a lead of three and a half steps. And to go back to the back of first base.

GoMO,

I teach the same lead (right, left, shuffle, shuffle). If done correctly, it puts you a step and a dive away from the base. I know this is taught the same way as many schools in the SEC and ACC.

red that sounds good to me -
tho fro gomo's description in caps, especially the PIVOT - it sounds like his runner is facing 2nd base instead of the pitcher - then pivoting toward the pitcher - in which case he's a dead duck on a quick pick throw as he starts his "left foot" step

I prefer left, right because the runner is facing the pitcher as he takes the second step and can get the right foot down and drive back toward the bag during the step. You add a pivot if he has to do that with the left foot on the second step. I believe this came down from the Dodgers organization.

goMO,

I teach my players to keep their right foot on the base and cross over with the left for the first part of their lead. The right leg then slides behind their body and becomes the lead leg. Then they take two to three shuffles. It seems to be about the right distance and avoids the dreaded crossover quick pick off.

We teach, left, right left & pivot on that left foot. These are normal strides and on the balls of your feet. Check the Pitcher on that Pivot and freeze. Many "quick pick offs will occur while the runner is in this position so we freeze and read before our next portion of our lead. Now, we take two small shuffles. We do not believe in crossing our feet at any time. We teach to focus on the pitcher's back heel. Others teach to watch the shoulder. If a pitcher is really open on their stretch, we teach watching the shoulder. For the most part, if a pitcher makes any move, you have to see the body through peripheral vision and direct eye focus located on that back heel. We teach to come back in on the back portion of the bag and so, our leadoffs are in a line from the back edge of 1st bast to the back edge of 2nd. Our toes are on that line. Anxiously awaiting the steal portion of this discussion.

We have alwa

Bee - yes, we're striding towards 2B with our first couple of steps, then we pivot on the left foot and bring the right around so we're facing the pitcher. As coachB25 says, we then watch the pitcher, and usually when he comes set, we take our 2 shuffles.
What I like about this is that it puts as as far away from the base as can be, while still being able to get back to the base with a step and a dive. If we don't have a steal sign on, we either don't take those two shuffles, or maybe just one. No one should ever getting picked off 1st if the steal sign isn't on.

To get back, we crossover with the right leg and dive with the right arm aiming for the back corner of the base.

I haven't seen a runner get picked off on a quick move when he's only a step off the base. If he's watching the pitcher the entire time, I don't see how that could happen.

Now onto the break. And I think this is where there's some differing opinions.

We *used* to crossover with our left leg, while bringing the left arm around hard to help get the momentum started.

what I remember reading here (maybe it was PGStaff who said it, I'm not sure), is that is the *old* way of doing it. Research suggests that a better jump can be obtained by reaching out with the right arm while crossing over with the left leg. This will get the body into a normal running mode (left leg and (opposite) right arm in front), and by the second step, you should be in your normal rhythm.

The *old * method of pulling the left arm around just gets you into the wrong running pattern (left arm and left leg ahead at the same time), and it takes longer to get to your normal pattern.

Of course, the runner should stay low, and peak in at the plate after his third step or so to see what happens with the ball.

Thoughts??

gomo, not only is your method correct, you can see it if you watch video of some of the best basestealers in the game. At a recent clinic, the presenter on baserunning showed clips from Henderson to Ichiro. ALL JABBED WITH THEIR LEAD FOOT (Right) and then pulled that right arm back as the shoulders squared and they were instantly into sprinter's position. As you stated, we used to do the other method. Then, I went out and really tried to do that older method. Didn't work for me. Just used common sense and applied this newer method. Of course conventional wisdom said we were teaching the wrong method. I'm glad to see others agree.

quote:

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Originally posted by CADad:
I prefer left, right because the runner is facing the pitcher as he takes the second step and can get the right foot down and drive back toward the bag during the step. You add a pivot if he has to do that with the left foot on the second step. I believe this came down from the Dodgers organization.

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I guess we've been listening to the same folks I like the start with the Left pivot Right and two slide steps, player is closer to the bag when he has his blind side to a pitcher. I am not sure where this teaching originated , maybe the Dodger's. The Left Right Left, like CoachB25 teaches, comes into play when the boys get older, I don't like to let the younger ones, typically 12U, get to crazy until I see they really can read a pitcher.

THANKS FOR POSTING THIS TOPIC! IT IS REFRESHING TO DISCUSS BASERUNNING. I believe that baserunning is the single most avoided portion of baseball to practice.

I've got a couple questions that you all can enlighten me with concerning stealing.

1. How do you teach your lead offs from second?

2. For the ages of 10-14 what kind of permission do you give for steal signs. Meaning do you give a Green Light (Steal next pitch), Red Light (Don't steal), and/or Yellow Light (Steal when you think you can)? The Yellow Light is the one in question.

HotCornerDad,
That was just the way my son was taught at Mark Cresse's camps and I've assumed that he mostly teaches what was taught in the Dodger organization.

There is also a mindset that I think is as important as the mechanics of the lead. I convey that mindset to players as ALWAYS...as in every single pitch, expect a mistake and be ready to pounce on it. Nothing ticks me off more than a lazy baserunner who misses an opportunity to advance or score because their brain was elsewhere or they just don't care. Either way they won't last long with me. On the other hand, a smart and aggressive baserunner can spark a team and discourage his opponent as effectively as a dinger.

CADad and HotCorner, I am always open to a better way, but I've tried left right and the problem with left right is that their is no comfortable 3rd step. You physically can't open up towards the pitcher and maintain any forward progress towards second to shuffle with your left foot out front. Now who the heck am I to tell the **** Dodgers how to do it, but just get up from your computer now and try it...cain't be done. Now if you are ok with stopping dead in your tracks and opening up to shuffle without gaining distance to second then I guess thats the way to go, but way to conservative for me.

I always teach Left-Right-Left, then pivot, as others have already suggested.

Halfmoon,
That is because you are assuming a third step. This approach is two steps and shuffles. If you are going to take three steps then you'd want to finish with the right foot so you'd start with the right foot.

Grateful,
I think I'd call that 4 steps. The left, then step with the right while pivoting on the left leaves you just far enough from the base that you can dive back without taking a step. You then shuffle off to extend the lead. The best baserunners will develop their own methods based on their ability to read moves and get back quickly.

No CADad, the third step is the opening up to be able to shuffle. I wasn't clear I guess. My way is Right, Left, Right to open as left foot pivots, shuffle, shuffle.

Halfmoon,
And "my" way is step first with the left and the second step is the opening up to be able to shuffle. Your approach is more aggressive. I guess I'm just a bit conservative by nature.

I know I'm not getting a good mental picture here. Right left right? If your last step is with your right foot, how do you then pivot to square to the batter/pitcher? Left right left with that last left being a pivot foot then ensures that you can pivot on that left foot. Sure you have to touch that right foot down but it is on a pivot and place not on another step. Then, the two shuffles ensures that you are at a maximum distance to be successful. Guess I'm suffering a mind block. Won't be the first time.

CoachB, We teach to lead off with the Right foot also and you are correct in your interpretation, it is actually only 2 steps but I can see where the confusion comes in.

KCDad,

At 2B, we teach leading in a straight line to the base. I liked the scheme we used in college and apply that to our kids. Our kids have gotten pretty good at picking up cues.

Our kids have the green light at all times, as long as they don't abuse it. My green light is defined as go when/if you can get a jump. We don't have a yellow light. At CDP, we stole ~ 160 bases for the week (tied the record).

I don't disagree with Right Left Right as long as the Left is the pivot to square up to the batter then shuffle for the lead, I try to stay conservative until the player demonstrates the ability to read the pitcher.

For the Lead off from Second I use the Left Right Left/Pivot, straight to the next base. This is for the younger players, I don't let therm play with the moving lead that has become popular. Later when they become more base running savvy I let them use the moving forward type lead.

CADad, I haven't been to the Cresse camps but I do spend a lot of time with Chad Baum UCI Assistant Coach and Rick Vanderhook, CSUF Assistant Coach.

Red, How did u like the CDP. We are planning on taking our team in two summers when they turn 12. Any good info about it would be appreciated but I heard nothing but great things about it. By the way, your SB record will be way safe with our team, no speed at all and the only kid with real speed has problems with his heels, LOL.

I'm happy to see some good discussion here. Thanks!!

Remember, this is the lead for my better baserunners, who will be likely to steal.

I agree, as someone said above, that the runners have to be ready for anything. Reading the break of the pitch (i.e. a ball in the dirt) and taking second is an example of a real good baserunner. They have to anticipate!!

I lost a 1-0 game this year b/c a baserunner on 3rd froze when he should've gone for it on a passed ball.

No substitute for instincts....

gomo one thing I have learned over the years is we dont realize how important baserunning is untill we make a crucial mistake in a big game. When we are practicing we spend all our time on hitting fielding pitching, game situations, first and thirds, bunt d and o etc. Then we make sure we hurry up and go over some baserunning. I over the last few years have put more emphasis on baserunning because it is so important. To make sure that we spend the time on it we should, we have incorporated it into our live bp sessions. Runner starts out on first and stays there untill the ball is hit. He works on reading the ball out of the pitchers hand and takes second when he sees the ball is (going to be in the dirt) not when it goes in the dirt. He works on his primary and secondary leads. Pitchers work on throwing over during bp and he works on getting back etc. Once he advances we stop him at second and do it all over again. We send him back to first and work on hit and run. We score him from second then he goes back to third and we work on third etc. Good conditioning work and great baserunning work. Its also good work for the base coaches. It also keeps everyone in the field on their toes as well as the pitchers. PG has a great baserunning manuel that they loaned me and I made a copy of it. PM them I am sure they will mail it to you as well.

I sat this one out and learned...thanks to the contributors filling in a big gap in my knowledge on this subject

Baserunning is as most of you have said is a lost art,as for the leads off of first, we take a left,right,left, pivot(i use the term square so that my guys square the shoulders, we open that front foot up a little) at second, we use the walking lead, we get our normal lead (straight towards third, then we are walking, we are constantly moving off the bag at second, try to take as much as the other team will give us, I am very verbal in my commands here. One , One , back.
Early in the season ,we have one BP group hitting, one on the bases, they will work on leads and reaction the entire time, Alot of times I try to be with the group on the bases, teaching constantly. IF the middle infielders do not do a good job of holding us we score on a basehit easliy, If they work real hard to keep us close it opens up more holes in the INF>

Ok leads from second! We have 3 different leads from second.

• No body out - We do not want to get doubled on a line drive. We take the same lead as from first. Left right left and pivot. Then, two shuffle steps. Shuffle two on the pitch.
• 1 out - We take the same lead as nobody out but add another shuffle prior to the pitch. We also take a step back in the baseline toward the shortstop. This increases our angle to third and makes it easier to round third. Shuffle two on the pitch!
• Two out lead - Same lead as one out but we add another big step back. Shuffle two on the pitch. We are scoring on any basehit!

On any of our leads, we never give up offensive ground until the defense gives up defensive ground. We draw lines in the dirt and designate where an infielder has to be before we consider them giving up "defensive ground"

This is the simple version of what we do.

I have a question about stealing on a lefty.

I have heard several cues given when dealing with a left handed pitcher. The one that I do not understand is, "go on first movement." This does not seem logical to me.

I have one son who is a left handed pitcher with some VERY good pick off moves. If a runner goes on first movement against him, most of the time he is going to get nailed.

At any rate, I am curious about the thinking behind this strategy. Any thoughts?

When we show up and a lefty is pitching, you almost have to slap my guys to get the smile off of their faces. First movement is dependent upon a number of things. Some would include, number of "moves" that the pitcher has, what is the "good move", do they stork at all, how well coached is the team, do they step off at all, and finally, what is the quality of the firstbaseman's arm. Then, we put the pitcher in a position where they are going to either "stork" or use their "good move" because we want to use the deception against them. We don't believe in these situations, that the pitcher is thinking "step off." We concentrate on the back foot. Any movement (first move) after this and we are off and running. We do have to recognize that if they step off, we're in a world of trouble. There is more to this but I don't want to give everything away.

montana - I think the logic is that once the pitcher starts his delivery, he's already locked in on what he wants to do. Pitchers usually know before they come out of the stretch whether they're going home or to first.

It sure sounds risky to me, but we're going to work on it this year...

gomo,
we teach the right left right shuffle shuffle also. what we do perhaps different is we take a smaller lead with the steal signal. that way we can get a good lean to second and a good jump. i know this is different from most, but has workde real well for us. thoughts??? opinions?? i feel with the little distance we give up we gain in the jumps we get.

Let understand what you just said, your lead off is shorter when you put the steal on and there by get better jumps?

I try to make the lead off look the same each time, not the same distance but no noticeable change to the way we take the lead off. Lefty same lead off with the steal sign as a righty, and go fist movement, CoachB25, my boys have gotten hung out by a lefty steppin' off because the lead is a base stealer's lead. If your not on the edge of gettin' caught you not gonna steal many bases.

montanadad,

The logic behind going on 1st movement is that, by shortening your lead, the P will not pick off. As soon as he moves (i.e. going home), you should get 3-5 steps of a jump on him.

HCD,

I have heard this as well against RHPs. I don't subscribe to it, but I have heard it working effectively.

Maybe it is a matter of semantics.

When some of you refer to "first move", my assumption would be the first movement the pitcher makes. If, on the other hand it refers to movement toward home, then I would concur.

In one game last year, my son picked off three consecutive runners at first. He was jokingly accused of intentionally walking batters so that he could get the out at first. Admittedly, the above scenario happened in rec league, and the level of coaching played a big part in his success. But even at the State and Regional level of All-stars, he would typically have more picks than steals.

Although I love watching my son work in this kind of situation, my reason for asking is so that I might better understand the runners' mentality. He moves up to Legion this year, and I'm sure that the level of coaching is going to be superior to what he has faced in the past. Just trying to get a handle on what he might expect from higher level of competition.

HotCornerDad, you're right. You have to have the heart of a thief and so, you're going to get picked off with the step off. However, I run all of this and so, I take the pressure off of the kid. I think I know the teams in our area so well that I know what most of them are going to do before they know what they are going to do.

MontanaDad, We want your son to throw over. We want his best deceptive move. When he begins (not step off) we figure he will use some deceptive action to make it look like he is going to the plate. Then, he will throw that ball over. He has to throw if he begins. We figure we can steal second before the 1st baseman receives that ball and throws to second. Now, there are other rules here as well but I don't want to post them. Some of you other guys that run this as well, know the baserunner's rules.

CoachB25,

Thank you for the clarification, I think I understand your intent better now. Perhaps I'll get to see this strategy in action this year.

It seems to me that a team would need to be very well coached, and very disciplined to consistently pull off what you are suggesting.

Thanks again.