Anyone have any comments on the Orioles firing of Leo Mazzone?
To me it came out of no where, I thought he was doing a pretty good job considering what he was working with.
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The O's were just looking to point the finger at somebody. Leo will land on his feet.
Leo left Atlanta to go to work for the previous manager, the best man at his wedding. The money was better but the word out of Atlanta was it was just to work with his friend.
I'm sure he wasn't as enthusiastic after his, I can't remember the guy's name, dismissal.
I'm sure he wasn't as enthusiastic after his, I can't remember the guy's name, dismissal.
I wonder about Mr. Mazzone. I liked some things in his book on pitching but overall thought, "this is a guy who has good leadership skills, good people skills, but either can't or doesn't choose to communicate very clearly about the technical aspects of pitching mechanics."
Honestly, I wonder sometimes if he wasn't just extraordinarily lucky to have a string of fantastic pitchers in Atlanta...and maybe he was smart enough to use their talents without doing anything to ruin them.
That approach wouldn't work with a mediocre pitching staff--there might be a real need for technically sound intervention in some cases--and I just wonder if Mr. Mazzone is really any good with the technical details.
I'm certainly not trying to knock Mr. Mazzone, but am curious if any others here have deeper insights about his abilities as a pitching coach.
Honestly, I wonder sometimes if he wasn't just extraordinarily lucky to have a string of fantastic pitchers in Atlanta...and maybe he was smart enough to use their talents without doing anything to ruin them.
That approach wouldn't work with a mediocre pitching staff--there might be a real need for technically sound intervention in some cases--and I just wonder if Mr. Mazzone is really any good with the technical details.
I'm certainly not trying to knock Mr. Mazzone, but am curious if any others here have deeper insights about his abilities as a pitching coach.
quote:extraordinarily lucky to have a string of fantastic pitchers in Atlanta
I think you answered your own question. Sometimes you create your "luck." They used to say Bob Gibson was the luckiest pitcher alive. The other team never hit well on days he pitched.
Well, I agree that pitchers are in a position to create their own luck, either good or bad. On the other hand, pitching coaches don't do the actual pitching for their teams.
My question, for which I don't pretend to have a good answer, is still the same: Was Mr. Mazzone mostly lucky to have a talented staff of pitchers to manage and use in Atlanta, or did Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, et al, owe most of their "luck" to Leo Mazzone's technical skills?
My question, for which I don't pretend to have a good answer, is still the same: Was Mr. Mazzone mostly lucky to have a talented staff of pitchers to manage and use in Atlanta, or did Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, et al, owe most of their "luck" to Leo Mazzone's technical skills?
A few points worthy of consideration.
Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz are either 2 or 3 Hall of Famers, depending on how you evaluate Smoltz. Glavine never won 20 until he worked with Mazzone. Maddux was already doing just fine before he came to the Braves. Smoltz, of the three, probably didn't mesh as well with Mazzone's philosophy, which de-emphasized velocity and pretty much sought to ignore the inner half of the plate. Smoltz also may have suffered from Mazzone's heavy emphasis on throwing between starts, since he relied more on velocity than the other two, and he had more physical breakdowns over the years from the toll on his elbow in particular.
Still, think of all the journeyman pitchers who came to Atlanta, suddenly peaked, then took free agency deals and fell flat elsewhere. The list is very long but here are just a few who come immediately to mind:
Denny Neagle
Mike Bielicki
Jaret Wright
Kyle Farnsworth
Alexandro Pena
Chris Hammond
Probably the only Braves castoffs to do better after leaving Mazzone would be Jason Schmidt and maybe Jason Marquis.
Maybe you can chalk that trend up to John Schuerholz's knowing when a guy's career is peaking, knowing when to get him and when to cast him off, but it seems to me Mazzone has to get some of the credit.
I do think that Mazzone's time may have passed. With QuestTec and the elimination of the extra-wide strike zone, one of the foundations of his philosophy -- stretching the outer side of the plate -- has been taken away from him. I don't know that he's really come up with something to replace that approach yet.
Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz are either 2 or 3 Hall of Famers, depending on how you evaluate Smoltz. Glavine never won 20 until he worked with Mazzone. Maddux was already doing just fine before he came to the Braves. Smoltz, of the three, probably didn't mesh as well with Mazzone's philosophy, which de-emphasized velocity and pretty much sought to ignore the inner half of the plate. Smoltz also may have suffered from Mazzone's heavy emphasis on throwing between starts, since he relied more on velocity than the other two, and he had more physical breakdowns over the years from the toll on his elbow in particular.
Still, think of all the journeyman pitchers who came to Atlanta, suddenly peaked, then took free agency deals and fell flat elsewhere. The list is very long but here are just a few who come immediately to mind:
Denny Neagle
Mike Bielicki
Jaret Wright
Kyle Farnsworth
Alexandro Pena
Chris Hammond
Probably the only Braves castoffs to do better after leaving Mazzone would be Jason Schmidt and maybe Jason Marquis.
Maybe you can chalk that trend up to John Schuerholz's knowing when a guy's career is peaking, knowing when to get him and when to cast him off, but it seems to me Mazzone has to get some of the credit.
I do think that Mazzone's time may have passed. With QuestTec and the elimination of the extra-wide strike zone, one of the foundations of his philosophy -- stretching the outer side of the plate -- has been taken away from him. I don't know that he's really come up with something to replace that approach yet.
Midlo Dad,
That's exactly the sort of balanced, thoughtful analysis I was looking for.
I think your last paragraph is especially insightful and interesting food for thought.
That's exactly the sort of balanced, thoughtful analysis I was looking for.
I think your last paragraph is especially insightful and interesting food for thought.
I have alot of respect for Mazzone and believe he did an amazing job in Atlanta, but with the Orioles this year he had shown improvement with Bedard, but many Orioles pitchers wound up getting injured this year also.
Always remember, 'You can't win the Derby with a donkey'. A coach alot of times gets to much credit/blame for the wins and losses. If you don't have something to work with chances are you will not see the end result you were looking for.
