CAN SOME ONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATIONAL LETTER OF INTENT AND LETTER OF INTENT?
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LADIES AND GENTS
The RYNO post is typical of the current trend in our country---why look things up and do your own research when others will do the work for you?
We have all too many posters coming on here asking questions without ever thinking about the GOOGLE BUTTON
Folks do a small bit of homework before posting
The RYNO post is typical of the current trend in our country---why look things up and do your own research when others will do the work for you?
We have all too many posters coming on here asking questions without ever thinking about the GOOGLE BUTTON
Folks do a small bit of homework before posting
I don't believe there is a difference. Either should be binding.
I enjoy reading the posts, especially when the boards are slow. And, you never know where a simple question will lead.
I enjoy reading the posts, especially when the boards are slow. And, you never know where a simple question will lead.
quote:Either should be binding
The article suggests they are not binding. They are pre contract clarifications. Most are honored.
" LOIs resemble written contracts, but are usually not binding upon the parties in their entirety "
TR,..perhaps RYNO did look it up, ( as did I ) and still had questions about the interpretation(s). (?)
I originally thought I knew the answer and started to post to him, but as I dug deeper into the definitions from Wickpedia and the NCAA site, they became kind of intertwined and somewhat confusing.
You presented the link for LOI from Wickpedia, but not the link from Wickpedia for NLI, so here it is for those who are curious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Letter_of_Intent
It is my understanding that an LOI is binding. ( but to whom? The university & the athlete? The NCAA too? Both? Neither? All three? )
From Wickpedia:
More from Wickpedia:
" A letter of intent or LOI is a document outlining an agreement between two or more parties before the agreement is finalized. "
The legal purposes of an LOI may be:
- to clarify the key points of a complex transaction for the convenience of the parties
- to declare officially that the parties are currently negotiating, as in a merger or joint venture proposal
- to provide safeguards in case a deal collapses during negotiation
The National Letter of Intent program is administered jointly by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) and the Collegiate Commissioners Association to regulate the recruitment of high school athletes into collegiate athletic programs.
I guess some colleges require a LOI to be signed BEFORE a NLI ( which I'm guessing is the only official document recognized by the NCAA between all three parties.- ?? ) is signed.
I'm curious to know how standard this procedure is. Do many colleges require a LOI? Perhaps others will know.
My son was not asked to sign a LOI. Only a NLI. If he had been, I would have wanted specific clarification.
I understand why RYNO asked his question.
I originally thought I knew the answer and started to post to him, but as I dug deeper into the definitions from Wickpedia and the NCAA site, they became kind of intertwined and somewhat confusing.
You presented the link for LOI from Wickpedia, but not the link from Wickpedia for NLI, so here it is for those who are curious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Letter_of_Intent
It is my understanding that an LOI is binding. ( but to whom? The university & the athlete? The NCAA too? Both? Neither? All three? )
From Wickpedia:
quote:The program forbids a prospective student athlete (PSA) from being recruited after signing an LOI; because LOIs are binding, an athlete's decision to sign marks the end of the recruiting process.
More from Wickpedia:
" A letter of intent or LOI is a document outlining an agreement between two or more parties before the agreement is finalized. "
The legal purposes of an LOI may be:
- to clarify the key points of a complex transaction for the convenience of the parties
- to declare officially that the parties are currently negotiating, as in a merger or joint venture proposal
- to provide safeguards in case a deal collapses during negotiation
The National Letter of Intent program is administered jointly by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) and the Collegiate Commissioners Association to regulate the recruitment of high school athletes into collegiate athletic programs.
I guess some colleges require a LOI to be signed BEFORE a NLI ( which I'm guessing is the only official document recognized by the NCAA between all three parties.- ?? ) is signed.
I'm curious to know how standard this procedure is. Do many colleges require a LOI? Perhaps others will know.
My son was not asked to sign a LOI. Only a NLI. If he had been, I would have wanted specific clarification.
I understand why RYNO asked his question.
SSMOM
Where do I or others get the answers ?---we research the subject to the best of our ability=== a cup or two of coffee while you google and you get the info you need
Where do I or others get the answers ?---we research the subject to the best of our ability=== a cup or two of coffee while you google and you get the info you need
There's nothing wrong with the question because LOIs are more complicated than most people think.
Coaches have cancelled LOIs.
LOIs are common in business and are only a starting point to see if a contract can be hammered out.
Coaches have cancelled LOIs.
LOIs are common in business and are only a starting point to see if a contract can be hammered out.
Bobblehead,
Thats how I interpreted a LOI,..but then when I read
from Wickpedia, it made me confused.
LOI's are binding between what parties?
The PSA and the University? The PSA, the University, and the NCAA??? I cant seem to find LOI specifically on the NCAA website.
A coach can cancel a LOI? Can a PSA? If so what are the ramifications, if any?
quote:LOIs are common in business and are only a starting point to see if a contract can be hammered out.
Thats how I interpreted a LOI,..but then when I read
quote:The program forbids a prospective student athlete (PSA) from being recruited after signing an LOI; because LOIs are binding, an athlete's decision to sign marks the end of the recruiting process.
from Wickpedia, it made me confused.
LOI's are binding between what parties?
The PSA and the University? The PSA, the University, and the NCAA??? I cant seem to find LOI specifically on the NCAA website.
A coach can cancel a LOI? Can a PSA? If so what are the ramifications, if any?
I did look it up and that is why I posted the question but of course TRHIT forgot to take his meds and assumes that everyone is an idiot and he is the only one that posts an educated response and/or question.
So I'll go a step further my son has been offerred a pre-ferred walkon invitation to a D1 program which is his top choice on his short list (he has turned down offers from other programs) and since this program is within Florida funding is not a concern.. The verbal from the coach in person this week indicated that he would be inroled as a student athlete and would have the entire fall season to earn his roster spot. The reason for the question was son wishes to committ to this program and I wanted to know if he can formally committ without any financial monies being promised.
I really appreciated that posters on this site and the amount of education I and others have received. I however learned long ago in my professional life that it is prudent to ask question when seeking a clearer answer. Again I'm sorry if trhit is offended... but so what.
Can son officially committ and announce his intentions and can he sign a LOI without and finacial consideration from University?
So I'll go a step further my son has been offerred a pre-ferred walkon invitation to a D1 program which is his top choice on his short list (he has turned down offers from other programs) and since this program is within Florida funding is not a concern.. The verbal from the coach in person this week indicated that he would be inroled as a student athlete and would have the entire fall season to earn his roster spot. The reason for the question was son wishes to committ to this program and I wanted to know if he can formally committ without any financial monies being promised.
I really appreciated that posters on this site and the amount of education I and others have received. I however learned long ago in my professional life that it is prudent to ask question when seeking a clearer answer. Again I'm sorry if trhit is offended... but so what.
Can son officially committ and announce his intentions and can he sign a LOI without and finacial consideration from University?
RYNO
Instead of your initial post why not say you have done research on the topic and still do not undertsand it--- can anyone help me
You come on with a post in CAPS like you are lost and drowning--like a SOS so to speak
By the way RYNO I do not take meds--I get up early, have coffee and read and then express myself--you do not want to listen then DON'T
But so what--I am never offended---too late for that and for those who carry an attitude .
The question you ask now is not the same question you asked to start this thread and a few others---there are no NLOI/LOI if there is no baseball money.
There is nothing OFFICIAL without a NLOI/LOI.
Good luck to your son
Instead of your initial post why not say you have done research on the topic and still do not undertsand it--- can anyone help me
You come on with a post in CAPS like you are lost and drowning--like a SOS so to speak
By the way RYNO I do not take meds--I get up early, have coffee and read and then express myself--you do not want to listen then DON'T
But so what--I am never offended---too late for that and for those who carry an attitude .
The question you ask now is not the same question you asked to start this thread and a few others---there are no NLOI/LOI if there is no baseball money.
There is nothing OFFICIAL without a NLOI/LOI.
Good luck to your son
TR...& others,
Can an athlete choose to walk away from a LOI without any ramifications?
Are you saying that a NLOI and a LOI are considered one in the same by the NCAA? Would you or someone who knows clarify for me?
( trying to understand all of this 100% )
Can an athlete choose to walk away from a LOI without any ramifications?
Are you saying that a NLOI and a LOI are considered one in the same by the NCAA? Would you or someone who knows clarify for me?
( trying to understand all of this 100% )
When a player signs a NLOI/LOI with a school he cannot just walk away from it--he needs the school to release him from it
It is my understanding, after talking with a D1 program's compliance officer, that the NCAA prohibits programs from issuing any sort of document that would "bind" a non-athletic money recruit to its school. No documents can be issued, even symbolic LOI's to be used only for a signing day ceremony. This is because, as shortstopmom put it, the athlete is free to walk away from a non-athletic money offer without any ramifications, even if the school offers the athlete other types of monies to play (academic scholarship, leadership scholarship, etc.). Without an NLI (National Letter of Intent), a program has no "hold" over a recruit and if he receives a better offer from another program before the first day of class, he is free to accept it.
For whatever it is worth, I am not sure any of us know/understand what a LOI is in the context of college athletic recruiting.
I do know it is different than the NLI.
Locally, the University of San Francisco started using something quite similar to a LOI. May have even called it an LOI.
It permitted players who were not being offered any baseball scholarship money to still have acknowledgment they were/are recruited and have been offered some preferential position within the baseball program. The players were not listed within those signing NLI's, but did get other local recognition of being a USF recruit.
That sounds similar to what is being offered here.
If so, there isn't anything binding whatsoever.
The player can walk away as can the school.
It is not governed by the NCAA or the NLI and does not have any process of enforcement.
In effect, it is a player stating I intend to attend a certain school. But there isn't any money involved or other "consideration." It isn't a contract and it isn't binding, if this LOI is on a par with those reported locally.
I do know it is different than the NLI.
Locally, the University of San Francisco started using something quite similar to a LOI. May have even called it an LOI.
It permitted players who were not being offered any baseball scholarship money to still have acknowledgment they were/are recruited and have been offered some preferential position within the baseball program. The players were not listed within those signing NLI's, but did get other local recognition of being a USF recruit.
That sounds similar to what is being offered here.
If so, there isn't anything binding whatsoever.
The player can walk away as can the school.
It is not governed by the NCAA or the NLI and does not have any process of enforcement.
In effect, it is a player stating I intend to attend a certain school. But there isn't any money involved or other "consideration." It isn't a contract and it isn't binding, if this LOI is on a par with those reported locally.
Thank you. 
I just did a search and found the link on this site for the USF players.
They did sign a letter of intent.
I have some recall of Observer 44 or justbaseball(???) maybe/perhaps posting something about these on a local site but I couldn't find it.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2686003481/...881099351#4881099351
Oops, found another one with a bit more "juice" to it:
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4686003481/...791012691#4791012691
They did sign a letter of intent.
I have some recall of Observer 44 or justbaseball(???) maybe/perhaps posting something about these on a local site but I couldn't find it.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2686003481/...881099351#4881099351
Oops, found another one with a bit more "juice" to it:
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4686003481/...791012691#4791012691
Ryno,
Here are the answers to your questions.
Yes. He can verbal at any time.
No. The NCAA does not allow a player to sign a LOI unless they are receiving a baseball scholarship. If he is receiving no baseball monies than he cannot sign an LOI.
Actually the above answer is wrong. You could sign the LOI, but it would be non-binding and would not matter because it cannot be turned into the NCAA. It would be signing a worthless document.
When a player signs a LOI the school must put that into the Clearinghouse computer system so no other schools can contact the player. However, they cannot put it into the system unless the player receives at least a 25% scholarship based on NCAA rules.
I hope this info helps.
Here are the answers to your questions.
quote:Can son officially commit and announce his intentions
Yes. He can verbal at any time.
quote:can he sign a LOI without and financial consideration from University?
No. The NCAA does not allow a player to sign a LOI unless they are receiving a baseball scholarship. If he is receiving no baseball monies than he cannot sign an LOI.
Actually the above answer is wrong. You could sign the LOI, but it would be non-binding and would not matter because it cannot be turned into the NCAA. It would be signing a worthless document.
When a player signs a LOI the school must put that into the Clearinghouse computer system so no other schools can contact the player. However, they cannot put it into the system unless the player receives at least a 25% scholarship based on NCAA rules.
I hope this info helps.
Thank You
As far as my understanding NLI is signed only when any athletic money is awarded and an LOI (not an NLI) can be given by the school if academic money awarded. Also, what verbal? Just an invitation to try out for a roster spot.
Ryno, as far as I understand, your son is receiving no academic and no athletic money and cannot be awarded either. He is essentially a recrutied (invited) walk on, most likely along with quite a few others. If anything else comes up let us know.
I wouldn't have my son commit anything for an invited walk on position, might have a better offer come along right up until start of next fall, a better offer being money. But then again, your son has no formal agreement, so what the heck. I would still leave his options open.
Best of luck.
Ryno, as far as I understand, your son is receiving no academic and no athletic money and cannot be awarded either. He is essentially a recrutied (invited) walk on, most likely along with quite a few others. If anything else comes up let us know.
I wouldn't have my son commit anything for an invited walk on position, might have a better offer come along right up until start of next fall, a better offer being money. But then again, your son has no formal agreement, so what the heck. I would still leave his options open.
Best of luck.
I never said he wasn't recieving academic monies. And he has recieved offers athletically from schools that are not high on his list academically. So the decision lies with what he feels he is comfortable with. And your correct some other offers will most likely come based on the season he is having both at the plate and on the mound. He just threw back to back 1 hitters with no earned runs and is hitting consistently 500 through 14 games as a lead off hitter with only 3 K'S He just likes this particular University. And in the end it has to be his decision.
You had referred to funding under Florida, which is not academic scholarship money given by the university but from the state.
Ryno, you came here asking a question, at this time I think it would be best before your son makes a decision to ask the coach about it and how many other recruited walk ons will arrive. I like his choice that he prefers the academic program.
Again, good luck to your son.
Ryno, you came here asking a question, at this time I think it would be best before your son makes a decision to ask the coach about it and how many other recruited walk ons will arrive. I like his choice that he prefers the academic program.
Again, good luck to your son.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
LADIES AND GENTS
The RYNO post is typical of the current trend in our country---why look things up and do your own research when others will do the work for you?
We have all too many posters coming on here asking questions without ever thinking about the GOOGLE BUTTON
Folks do a small bit of homework before posting
Or do not reply to the original post and let others just simply answer the question.
batdad
RIGHT !!!!!
RIGHT !!!!!
Ryno, based on what I have read, a player accepting $1 of athletic money, foregoes the right to transfer without sitting out a year. Keep that in mind before accepting any money. Take a dollar and the coach owns you. Good luck.
Dad04,
Your advice was very good.
In fact, a D1 college coach told me that if a player even just attends a D1 school (not even as a walk-on) he will have to sit out a year at another D1 school if he transfers.
Before every one tells me that is unfair...I know it is unfair. The coach said the rule is that way because if a walk-on does not make the team he has to sit out a year at the next school. Therefore, be careful where you go as a walk-on.
God Bless,
Bob Pincus
Your advice was very good.
In fact, a D1 college coach told me that if a player even just attends a D1 school (not even as a walk-on) he will have to sit out a year at another D1 school if he transfers.
Before every one tells me that is unfair...I know it is unfair. The coach said the rule is that way because if a walk-on does not make the team he has to sit out a year at the next school. Therefore, be careful where you go as a walk-on.
God Bless,
Bob Pincus
As Bob Pincus has said, it isn't necessary to have received athletic money to negate the one-time transfer exemption:
14.5.5.2.10.1 Nonrecruited Student. A student-athlete who does not qualify for the exception due to Bylaw 14.5.5.2.10-(a) may use the one-time transfer exception, provided he or she was not recruited by the original four-year institution and has never received institutional athletically related financial aid from any four-year institution. (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)
Baseball players don't "qualify for the exception due to Bylaw 14.5.5.2.10-(a)" and so a player needs to have never received 4 year athletic money, and they can't have been recruited by the original college. If a player or his relatives have had more than one phone call from the athletic department, they've been recruited.
The NCAA really doesn't want you to transfer!
14.5.5.2.10.1 Nonrecruited Student. A student-athlete who does not qualify for the exception due to Bylaw 14.5.5.2.10-(a) may use the one-time transfer exception, provided he or she was not recruited by the original four-year institution and has never received institutional athletically related financial aid from any four-year institution. (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)
Baseball players don't "qualify for the exception due to Bylaw 14.5.5.2.10-(a)" and so a player needs to have never received 4 year athletic money, and they can't have been recruited by the original college. If a player or his relatives have had more than one phone call from the athletic department, they've been recruited.
The NCAA really doesn't want you to transfer!
Question #1
If I understand this correctly at D1 whether you receive money or not and you walkon and tryout for a D1 baseball program you forfeit your right to transfer unless you are given a release. Now as I read further that transfer pertains to D1 to D1. If you transfer to a D2 on less classification I believe you can transfer without sitting out a season. I this correct or am I missing something?
Question #2
The offer my son has been extended is a pre-ferred walkon position and he would be admitted to university as a student athlete and would be held to the same academic guidlines as the other student athletes on campus, mandatory study halls, a minimum GPA requirement and will be given the entire fall season to earn a roster spot.
What is your opinion of this offer? Based on many posts read many say never committ without monies, They have no available schlorship monies and unlike some other schools will not over recruit. They will carry 34-35 players on their roster and The Recruiting coordinator sat down with our family and seemed very honest and made it clear that our son will have to earn his roster position and all athletes will have to continue every year to hold those postion whether they are on scholorship or not. We were very inpressed with the meeting but also wish to be very careful in respect to the institution our son attends.
If I understand this correctly at D1 whether you receive money or not and you walkon and tryout for a D1 baseball program you forfeit your right to transfer unless you are given a release. Now as I read further that transfer pertains to D1 to D1. If you transfer to a D2 on less classification I believe you can transfer without sitting out a season. I this correct or am I missing something?
Question #2
The offer my son has been extended is a pre-ferred walkon position and he would be admitted to university as a student athlete and would be held to the same academic guidlines as the other student athletes on campus, mandatory study halls, a minimum GPA requirement and will be given the entire fall season to earn a roster spot.
What is your opinion of this offer? Based on many posts read many say never committ without monies, They have no available schlorship monies and unlike some other schools will not over recruit. They will carry 34-35 players on their roster and The Recruiting coordinator sat down with our family and seemed very honest and made it clear that our son will have to earn his roster position and all athletes will have to continue every year to hold those postion whether they are on scholorship or not. We were very inpressed with the meeting but also wish to be very careful in respect to the institution our son attends.
Folks think scholarship money and playing time are attached at the hip. That was sort of true under the old rules. Nearly everyone got something, even if it was just books. The new rules are a maximum of 25 or 27 scholarship players with a minimum scholarsip amount, so several on each team will not get athletic money. That is the new reality.
The best players play. That was true and will continue to be true. Players have roles on teams and as long as they understand and fullfill their roles, the team is usually successful. More non-scholly kids will be playing, imo.
You can still transfer to a juco if you have juco eligibility left and not sit out.
The best players play. That was true and will continue to be true. Players have roles on teams and as long as they understand and fullfill their roles, the team is usually successful. More non-scholly kids will be playing, imo.
You can still transfer to a juco if you have juco eligibility left and not sit out.
Hey Ryno, I believe that the transfer rules apply to both D-1 and D-2. I believe I read that somewhere on here a while back.
As you know my Son was offered a recruited walk-on as well. He was told that he would be on the spring roster and that he would live off campus with the team as well as be entitled to all the benefits of being on the team.
This was at one of the most prestigeous programs in Florida. He chose not to accept that offer and went to a smaller program where we were assured in more then one way that he would be playing, probably starting as a freshman.
We were following the adage "go where they love you". Of course we have not gotten there yet, so we do not know for sure how it will all turn out, but we like the situation.
I would hold the recruited walk on offer in my back pocket as long as possible. As you have said, your Son is having a break-out season! Congratulations on that.
However, if you "feel the love", and like the program and coaches...
Like Dad04 said, and I believe also, they are going to play the top 9 no matter who gets a scholarship.
As you know my Son was offered a recruited walk-on as well. He was told that he would be on the spring roster and that he would live off campus with the team as well as be entitled to all the benefits of being on the team.
This was at one of the most prestigeous programs in Florida. He chose not to accept that offer and went to a smaller program where we were assured in more then one way that he would be playing, probably starting as a freshman.
We were following the adage "go where they love you". Of course we have not gotten there yet, so we do not know for sure how it will all turn out, but we like the situation.
I would hold the recruited walk on offer in my back pocket as long as possible. As you have said, your Son is having a break-out season! Congratulations on that.
However, if you "feel the love", and like the program and coaches...
Like Dad04 said, and I believe also, they are going to play the top 9 no matter who gets a scholarship.
RYNO,
Without being in the room, and only having that summary available, I honestly question if they have made your son any type of "offer." Other than the title of "recruited" walk on, I don't see how your son is different than any other student admitted to that school.
More importantly, I don't see anything that describes the coach having talked with your son about why he is wanted and the extent to which he is wanted, about how he can contribute to their program, where they would envision his ability to compete, what he might expect over 3-4 years within that program, etc.
I also build into the discussion that they committed all their money in November. That alone says something about where your son "fits" in their current thinking. Like it or not, your son is behind every player who received money last November.
My reading of the "offer" is that it is a team looking to protect itself and to build depth by selling the "dream" of college baseball, with all the risk born by players like your son.
Without being in the room, and only having that summary available, I honestly question if they have made your son any type of "offer." Other than the title of "recruited" walk on, I don't see how your son is different than any other student admitted to that school.
More importantly, I don't see anything that describes the coach having talked with your son about why he is wanted and the extent to which he is wanted, about how he can contribute to their program, where they would envision his ability to compete, what he might expect over 3-4 years within that program, etc.
I also build into the discussion that they committed all their money in November. That alone says something about where your son "fits" in their current thinking. Like it or not, your son is behind every player who received money last November.
My reading of the "offer" is that it is a team looking to protect itself and to build depth by selling the "dream" of college baseball, with all the risk born by players like your son.
In my experience a so called "preferred walk on" at a Division I program is no different than any other non scholarship player trying out for the team
Addendum: just checked a few "preferred walkons" that I know of and none of the players to date have even had an at bat and we are 20 games into the season
Addendum: just checked a few "preferred walkons" that I know of and none of the players to date have even had an at bat and we are 20 games into the season
Thanks to everyone who reponded. I am very clear now on the process having talked with the recruiter at length and the decision will be our son's. I agree with many posters on many different levels and feel confident that our son will make the decision that best fits his needs and desires. The non-money issue is not as big a concern as it may have been in the past. Any way you slice it there are going to be 7-8 non scholorship players on all D1 programs rosters after this season due to the new NCAA guidelines. So as the recruiter stated they are going to take the best players that fit there needs both on the field and as a member of the University. Ryan being a muti positional talented athlete who is also really pitching well this season should have an edge against some of the other 7-8 players, if he was one dementional perhaps I would advice differently. But given the fact that he is guaranteed the whole fall to make the squad benefits him. In the end if he's good enough to make the team great and if he isn't at least he would have tried. He doesn't wish to attend any schools that he isn't familar with and has turned down some really nice offers based on location or his gut feeling of the coaching staffs. So when he feels ready to anounce his decision I proudly will let everyone know. Thank You once again.
RYNO, it sounds like y'all are doing your best to objectively evaluate your son's offer. Here are a couple of things you might want to consider:
1. Ask the coaches how many preferred walk-ons are expected to arrive on campus this fall. There's a clear limit of 27 athletic scholarship players imposed by the NCAA, but more than 8 preferred or invited walk-ons can arrive on campus each year. The only stipulation is that the program trims the number to a maximum of 8 by the time it posts its spring roster. If no more than 8 '08 grads will be arriving in the fall as preferred walk-ons, your son probably has an excellent chance of making the team. If, on the other hand, 20 '08 grads show up, the situation is a lot more dicey.
2. I really like something you stated: "The Recruiting coordinator sat down with our family and seemed very honest and made it clear that our son will have to earn his roster position and all athletes will have to continue every year to hold those postion whether they are on scholorship or not. We were very inpressed with the meeting but also wish to be very careful in respect to the institution our son attends." It sounds as if you have a good "gut feeling" about this coach and yet at the same time you still want to be cautious. To me, gut feelings can be quite valuable. Our family had negative vibes about a couple of college coaches we encountered in the past couple of years and remarks make subsequently by those in the know confirmed our opinions. We also had very positive gut feelings about a few coaches and those too were confirmed later by outside sources. I encourage you to identify some people familiar with the coaches at this school and ask them point-blank if the word of the coaches can be trusted. If the coaches tell you that there will be 6 preferred walk-ons in the fall and others tell you that the coaches are men of integrity, your son's situation bodes well.
Best wishes as you make your decision!
1. Ask the coaches how many preferred walk-ons are expected to arrive on campus this fall. There's a clear limit of 27 athletic scholarship players imposed by the NCAA, but more than 8 preferred or invited walk-ons can arrive on campus each year. The only stipulation is that the program trims the number to a maximum of 8 by the time it posts its spring roster. If no more than 8 '08 grads will be arriving in the fall as preferred walk-ons, your son probably has an excellent chance of making the team. If, on the other hand, 20 '08 grads show up, the situation is a lot more dicey.
2. I really like something you stated: "The Recruiting coordinator sat down with our family and seemed very honest and made it clear that our son will have to earn his roster position and all athletes will have to continue every year to hold those postion whether they are on scholorship or not. We were very inpressed with the meeting but also wish to be very careful in respect to the institution our son attends." It sounds as if you have a good "gut feeling" about this coach and yet at the same time you still want to be cautious. To me, gut feelings can be quite valuable. Our family had negative vibes about a couple of college coaches we encountered in the past couple of years and remarks make subsequently by those in the know confirmed our opinions. We also had very positive gut feelings about a few coaches and those too were confirmed later by outside sources. I encourage you to identify some people familiar with the coaches at this school and ask them point-blank if the word of the coaches can be trusted. If the coaches tell you that there will be 6 preferred walk-ons in the fall and others tell you that the coaches are men of integrity, your son's situation bodes well.
Best wishes as you make your decision!
P.S. Btw, there's a slight chance I may be wrong, but I'm almost certain that players can transfer from a D1 to a D2 without having to sit out a year. You probably need to confirm that with the NCAA, however.
quote:Originally posted by Infield08:
P.S. Btw, there's a slight chance I may be wrong, but I'm almost certain that players can transfer from a D1 to a D2 without having to sit out a year. You probably need to confirm that with the NCAA, however.
Not being argumentative and I'll go with a slight chance for myself also, but based on the rule I read and the Coach I heard interviewed, the only places to go without sitting out are D3, NAIA or juco.
I'm no expert, and perhaps there are other rules than the following, but
The D1 manual has:
"14.5.5.2.10 One-Time Transfer Exception. The student transfers to the certifying institution from another four-year collegiate institution, and all of the following conditions are met (for graduate students, see also Bylaw 14.1.9.1): (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05, for those student-athletes who transfer to a Division I institution for the 2005-06 academic year and thereafter)
(a) The student is a participant in a sport other than baseball, basketball, bowl subdivision football or men’s ice hockey at the institution to which the student is transferring. .........."
The D2 manual has an analogous section 14.5.5.3.10, but which doesn't contain the "other than baseball,....." section.
So my vote would be that there is possible to transfer from D1 to D2 without sitting out a year.
On the other hand, transferring to a D1 requires a year sat out, even if the baseball player is coming from D2, D3 or NAIA.
The D1 manual has:
"14.5.5.2.10 One-Time Transfer Exception. The student transfers to the certifying institution from another four-year collegiate institution, and all of the following conditions are met (for graduate students, see also Bylaw 14.1.9.1): (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05, for those student-athletes who transfer to a Division I institution for the 2005-06 academic year and thereafter)
(a) The student is a participant in a sport other than baseball, basketball, bowl subdivision football or men’s ice hockey at the institution to which the student is transferring. .........."
The D2 manual has an analogous section 14.5.5.3.10, but which doesn't contain the "other than baseball,....." section.
So my vote would be that there is possible to transfer from D1 to D2 without sitting out a year.
On the other hand, transferring to a D1 requires a year sat out, even if the baseball player is coming from D2, D3 or NAIA.
Infield08 brought up a point that I did a while back, ask the coach how many "recruited" or 'preferred" walk ons have been asked to come. 8 or 15? If you don't ask, they won't tell you.
My son's friends were walk ons at a mid D1 in FL. They were not treated the same as the scholarship players. They were given a uniform, practice clothes but had to provide their own gloves, turf shoes and spikes, everthing extra on their dime. They also did not have access to the athletic departments required study hall, so when everyone went off to study they didn't. They were good players but barely played, never traveled. Maybe that has changed.
One quit after a year one tried to hang on. He was very good, but the less and less time he played he wasn't as good anymore as those that did. The only reason they did not get scholarships is because their parents were so busy going through a divorce they couldn't care less about their desire to play baseball.
IMO, not to offend anyone, but the 8 non scholarship players on a D1 program are considered "insurance" players. They are the coaches insurance in case someone is ineligible, or gets hurt. Those players may be very talented and most likely are, but the first priority goes to the scholarship players.
Let's equate this to the pro player that has been mentioned here on this site many times. The player with the nice bonus gets many opportunities to fail, the player drafted late has to prove he can play. Hard work never hurt anyone, but sometimes you can work as hard as you can and not get the opportunity. In college that's a personal decision, do I want to wait on the bench to get my chance, for nothing while those the coach is spending money on will get all the opportunities to fail first. In pro ball you get a paycheck, that sometimes takes the sting out of situation. I am not putting anyone down but is the best way I can find an analogy.
TR brought up to your attention the dilemma, the players he knows who were walk ons are bench sitters. I do beleive you will find that where ver you go, unless someone has information otherwise.
Most players that have been given scholarships have also played multi positions at one time or another. Multi position players DO not have an edge just because they play multi positions. Once you get to college you will realize why some play some positions and why others don't and why players don't move around from position to position.
In the state of Florida there are a handful of schools I would have considerd mine to go play at, although there is plenty of sunshine, most programs don't live up to what they should considering the talent in the state.
I would definetly inquire about the coaches and the programs before your son commits. I wouldnot go on just teh coaches word. I know before son commited to Clemson we called everyone we knew from PG himself to parents of players.
JMO and good luck.
My son's friends were walk ons at a mid D1 in FL. They were not treated the same as the scholarship players. They were given a uniform, practice clothes but had to provide their own gloves, turf shoes and spikes, everthing extra on their dime. They also did not have access to the athletic departments required study hall, so when everyone went off to study they didn't. They were good players but barely played, never traveled. Maybe that has changed.
IMO, not to offend anyone, but the 8 non scholarship players on a D1 program are considered "insurance" players. They are the coaches insurance in case someone is ineligible, or gets hurt. Those players may be very talented and most likely are, but the first priority goes to the scholarship players.
Let's equate this to the pro player that has been mentioned here on this site many times. The player with the nice bonus gets many opportunities to fail, the player drafted late has to prove he can play. Hard work never hurt anyone, but sometimes you can work as hard as you can and not get the opportunity. In college that's a personal decision, do I want to wait on the bench to get my chance, for nothing while those the coach is spending money on will get all the opportunities to fail first. In pro ball you get a paycheck, that sometimes takes the sting out of situation. I am not putting anyone down but is the best way I can find an analogy.
TR brought up to your attention the dilemma, the players he knows who were walk ons are bench sitters. I do beleive you will find that where ver you go, unless someone has information otherwise.
Most players that have been given scholarships have also played multi positions at one time or another. Multi position players DO not have an edge just because they play multi positions. Once you get to college you will realize why some play some positions and why others don't and why players don't move around from position to position.
In the state of Florida there are a handful of schools I would have considerd mine to go play at, although there is plenty of sunshine, most programs don't live up to what they should considering the talent in the state.
I would definetly inquire about the coaches and the programs before your son commits. I wouldnot go on just teh coaches word. I know before son commited to Clemson we called everyone we knew from PG himself to parents of players.
JMO and good luck.
To go a little further in the line of questioning, ask the coaches if there are any existing walk-ons (non-athletic money players) on the team. Theoretically, they could already have 3 or 4 players, which when added to the 27 scholarship players would bump up the total to 30 or 31, leaving room for only 4 or 5 more walk-ons.
It's best to be as specific as possible with your questions and to phrase questions in as many different ways as possible to make sure you get the answer you are looking for. For example, when we were conversing with a program in the fall (which my son did not end up going with), we asked in an email, "Could you give us a thumbnail sketch of middle-infielders expected to play for (the school) next year?" The coach wrote back, "you ask about expected infielders to play for our team - i assume you mean spring of 2008?" He then proceeded to tell us who he anticipated starting in the spring of 2008, which was all juniors and seniors. This was NOT the answer we were looking for. What we wanted to know was how many '08 grad middle-infielders was the school planning to bring on? How you phrase the question is so important.
It's best to be as specific as possible with your questions and to phrase questions in as many different ways as possible to make sure you get the answer you are looking for. For example, when we were conversing with a program in the fall (which my son did not end up going with), we asked in an email, "Could you give us a thumbnail sketch of middle-infielders expected to play for (the school) next year?" The coach wrote back, "you ask about expected infielders to play for our team - i assume you mean spring of 2008?" He then proceeded to tell us who he anticipated starting in the spring of 2008, which was all juniors and seniors. This was NOT the answer we were looking for. What we wanted to know was how many '08 grad middle-infielders was the school planning to bring on? How you phrase the question is so important.
quote:IMO, not to offend anyone, but the 8 non scholarship players on a D1 program are considered "insurance" players. They are the coaches insurance in case someone is ineligible, or gets hurt. Those players may be very talented and most likely are, but the first priority goes to the scholarship players.
That's a very good analogy. They are there in case of the perfect storm of injury, flunk outs, legal issues, etc. It doesn't mean they can't play. It just means they likely won't.