level shoulders

There is s school of thought that endorses the 'flat arc swing'. Has to do with comparable strike out ratio of modern hitters versus past hitters.

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/coaches/sluggers/lostsecrets.htm

Talk with the coaches to see what their philosophy is.

But remember that they are the coaches even if you disagree with them. They deserve respect for their time and effort that they are giving the children.
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At 7 and 8 years old,the coaches are usually parents and don't need to mess with the mechanics if they are being taught elsewhere.


I agree that there are more strikeouts because people are swinging for homeruns but I do disagree with the explanations given.

I believe it is a simple case of ovrswinging trying to get it over the fence.Eckstein doesn't strike out much using the same mechanics as most hitters do toaday,simply put,he doesn't swing for the fences.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
At 7 and 8 years old,the coaches are usually parents and don't need to mess with the mechanics if they are being taught elsewhere.


I agree that there are more strikeouts because people are swinging for homeruns but I do disagree with the explanations given.

I believe it is a simple case of ovrswinging trying to get it over the fence.Eckstein doesn't strike out much using the same mechanics as most hitters do toaday,simply put,he doesn't swing for the fences.

There are only two possibilities of keeping your shoulders level in a swing. One is, a pitch chest high or higher. The other is if you would squat down to the heighth of the ball and you back would have to be totally straight. When a kid starts to hit a lot of pop ups or fly balls, the first thing a Coach does is yell, "keep your back shoulder up" or "stop dipping your shoulder." They may stop the pop-ups and fly balls, but you can forget about them hitting the ball hard on a line. They will be pounding the ball in the ground. The main cause of hitting pop-ups and fly balls is hand position, but sometimes it may be head position and this is what Coaches see as shoulder dipping.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
There is s school of thought that endorses the 'flat arc swing'. Has to do with comparable strike out ratio of modern hitters versus past hitters.

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/coaches/sluggers/lostsecrets.htm

Talk with the coaches to see what their philosophy is.

But remember that they are the coaches even if you disagree with them. They deserve respect for their time and effort that they are giving the children.
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Quincy,

They have Ted Williams on this list and there is no way he had a flat swing path. He preached a slight up-swing.

As far as your comments on what to do with the Coaches, I totally agree. You can't be telling your kid to do one thing and have the Coach telling them something else. It is a one on one conversation that needs to be had before they ever have a practice with a new Coach. Let them know ahead of time that you have someone working with your child on hitting and to please not instruct them in that area. You could even give them the Instructor's phone number (if the Instructor doesn't mind) and have them call to ask any questions they may have. Keep in mind though, that some Coaches will not change the way they Coach and you will have a decision to make at that point, change teams or watch your kid struggle or even sit the bench. If it's a rec league or Little League, you could go to the League rep or President and get it through, but why fight it. In High School or College they may sit if they won't change to a Coach's philosophy.

What would the next step be if after asking the coach not to instruct your child in that area, you find that your child is performing in an inferior fashion as compared to the kids accepting and following the instruction?

.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
What would the next step be if after asking the coach not to instruct your child in that area, you find that your child is performing in an inferior fashion as compared to the kids accepting and following the instruction?

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Depending on whether your kid is improving with your current instructor or not would be my deciding factor. I personally believe that judging your abilities or progress compared to someone elses abilities, dooms you to that persons best, not your own. I may never be better than the person next to me, but I can ALWAYS be better than I am now.

The old "keep your back shoulder up" is the same as keep your shoulders level. What happens is the shoulders trade planes. At initiation, the front shoulder is lower than the back. At contact the front shoulder is higher than the back shoulder. Go pull bonds or A-Rod and look just at the relationship of front shoulder to back shoulder in their swing. Sosa at load used to drop his front shoulder when others turned it in. He and Bonds do not have a lot of front shoulder turn. (Although Sosa has more now than he did earlier when he hit more homeruns.) Others have a significant amount of shoulder turn.

The reason you are seeing more strikeouts is because OPS means more in run production than batting average. The big OPS guys are more likely to make it to MLB than just a contact guy. Go into this years stats and take RBI + Runs scored - homeruns (the same homerun is both an RBI and a run, but it is only one run scored) and see who is accounting for the most runs scored.

Try telling a high school coach that you are getting professional lessons and not to instruct your kid.

I hear an awful lot wrong out of high school, college and professional coaches. A hitter has to learn to live in that world.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
The reason you are seeing more strikeouts is because OPS means more in run production than batting average. The big OPS guys are more likely to make it to MLB than just a contact guy. Go into this years stats and take RBI + Runs scored - homeruns (the same homerun is both an RBI and a run, but it is only one run scored) and see who is accounting for the most runs scored.

Try telling a high school coach that you are getting professional lessons and not to instruct your kid.

I hear an awful lot wrong out of high school, college and professional coaches. A hitter has to learn to live in that world.

Ted Williams is the all-time leader or maybe it's second, in OPS and he didn't strike-out much, but then again, he wasn't really trying to hit home runs, just hit the ball hard. These guys today don't understand that it still only counts 1 run if it goes 1 foot over the fence or 100 feet over.

I agree with your last two statements. I think however, that it's a very good idea to check a Coach's hitting philosophy before you decide to attend that school.

I should clarify. Most hitters strike out a lot. Very few hitters in the world can make it to a MLB level without finding a level their Ks don't take over and they wash out. It is rare that power guys like Pujols and Ted Williams do (did) not K much. Bonds doesn't strike out a lot. Since most hitters strike out a lot (the AVERAGE hitter in the major leagues strikes out 17.5 times per 100 plate appearance and just under 20 times per 100 ABs), the hitters that tend to make it are the Adam Dunn's of the baseball world. You seem to either hear "a big swing and a miss... or long fly ball to deep right field..."

A while back SI showed the swing plane of Giambi, Ichiro and someone else. The lower strike out guys seem to have a flatter swing plane. Ted Williams started his hands really low by todays standards and his "upswing" as he called it was to match the plane of the ball from the pitcher into the hitting area. Therefore, he made consistent contact. Many of todays hitters have a steep swing plane and it is harder at those angles to make square contact.

Don't get me wrong, most people that start with hands as low as Williams will yank front shoulder out to initiate swing. You want to open to hit, but like pitching, it needs to be delayed. It is easier to stay closed swinging with a steeper trajectory.

I have enjoyed the posts lately. The meaness is still there with some, but overall I think a player can filter through what is being said by ALL and pick up some useful information.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
At 7 and 8 years old,the coaches are usually parents and don't need to mess with the mechanics if they are being taught elsewhere.


I agree that there are more strikeouts because people are swinging for homeruns but I do disagree with the explanations given.

I believe it is a simple case of ovrswinging trying to get it over the fence.Eckstein doesn't strike out much using the same mechanics as most hitters do toaday,simply put,he doesn't swing for the fences.

There are only two possibilities of keeping your shoulders level in a swing. One is, a pitch chest high or higher. The other is if you would squat down to the heighth of the ball and you back would have to be totally straight. When a kid starts to hit a lot of pop ups or fly balls, the first thing a Coach does is yell, "keep your back shoulder up" or "stop dipping your shoulder." They may stop the pop-ups and fly balls, but you can forget about them hitting the ball hard on a line. They will be pounding the ball in the ground. The main cause of hitting pop-ups and fly balls is hand position, but sometimes it may be head position and this is what Coaches see as shoulder dipping.

I think this is exactly what is happening.

The first response to a pop up is always keep your shoulders level,regardless of what caused the pop up.



My nephew is dropping his hands,from what I could see and is really late.Of course someone has been telling him back elbow up and really making things worse.


As far as coaches are concerned,I am talking 7 and 8 year old kids that are in a rec league with PARENTS that know nothing but what they hear.


My son has gone through some growing pains learning a new way of hitting and there will always be a downside to learning something new at first.BUT,the upside is higher and the kids are there to learn and coaches should allow them to learn,at that level.

When they get older,things are different.


Hopefully the high school coach will still be there when my son gets there(if he does) because he has the same philosophy to hitting my sons hitting instructor does.

The cue "level shoulders" is consistent with the philosophy of "swing down to the ball" and an erect stance. Regardless of the location of the pitch, a batter who swings down to the ball is taught to use his arms to direct the bat to the location of the ball while shoulders rotate around a vertical spine. Level shoulders = erect stance.

While I have my own opinion on whether swinging down to the ball is effective or not for all batters the important thing is to be consistent. A rotational hitter should not use a "level shoulders" cue (unless the pitch is shoulder height as posters have mentioned.)

So it all depends on what philosophy the hitter is using.

quote:

Originally posted by Z-Dad:
The cue "level shoulders" is consistent with the philosophy of "swing down to the ball" and an erect stance. Regardless of the location of the pitch, a batter who swings down to the ball is taught to use his arms to direct the bat to the location of the ball while shoulders rotate around a vertical spine. Level shoulders = erect stance.

While I have my own opinion on whether swinging down to the ball is effective or not for all batters the important thing is to be consistent. A rotational hitter should not use a "level shoulders" cue (unless the pitch is shoulder height as posters have mentioned.)

So it all depends on what philosophy the hitter is using.

That is what I thought but wasn't sure.

That is exactly why I tell my son to ignore that when he hears it.It doesn't fit into what he is learning/has learned.

Regardless of the style or swing plane of a hitter, the barrel is above the strike zone and must feed down. Most hitters have their hands above the strike zone at load and even the hands must feed down.

The problem that most inexperienced hitting instructors try to solve with "back shoulder up" is the collapsing of the backside. In most cases you will see the back foot fail to go to rotation. The problem is neither the back foot nor the shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I should clarify. Most hitters strike out a lot. Very few hitters in the world can make it to a MLB level without finding a level their Ks don't take over and they wash out. It is rare that power guys like Pujols and Ted Williams do (did) not K much. Bonds doesn't strike out a lot. Since most hitters strike out a lot (the AVERAGE hitter in the major leagues strikes out 17.5 times per 100 plate appearance and just under 20 times per 100 ABs), the hitters that tend to make it are the Adam Dunn's of the baseball world. You seem to either hear "a big swing and a miss... or long fly ball to deep right field..."

A while back SI showed the swing plane of Giambi, Ichiro and someone else. The lower strike out guys seem to have a flatter swing plane. Ted Williams started his hands really low by todays standards and his "upswing" as he called it was to match the plane of the ball from the pitcher into the hitting area. Therefore, he made consistent contact. Many of todays hitters have a steep swing plane and it is harder at those angles to make square contact.

Don't get me wrong, most people that start with hands as low as Williams will yank front shoulder out to initiate swing. You want to open to hit, but like pitching, it needs to be delayed. It is easier to stay closed swinging with a steeper trajectory.

I have enjoyed the posts lately. The meaness is still there with some, but overall I think a player can filter through what is being said by ALL and pick up some useful information.

It may be that since Williams started so closed with his shoulders it eliminated the problem you're talking about, same thing with Yaz. I really like the low hands approach, but I can't get many to agree with me. You may be surprised by how many times Pujols may swing level. He doesn't have much of an up and down strike zone. Since the sweet spot should be the goal, level wouldn't make much difference, IMO. I still don't see how you will get to a pitch at the knees without tilt though.

Williams was big on matching the bat plane with the plane of the ball pitched. Using a round ball and a round bat creates little area that is the sweet spot of BOTH. I can hit the ball with the exact sweet part of the bat but miss the sweet part of the ball and pop it up or nick it as a grounder.

Williams thought his odds increased if a pitcher throws with a downward tilt to the ball and he swung with as he called it an "upswing." He thought "upper-cuts" were as bad as trying to swing down on the ball. He was country boy strong and could swing with very low hands. Most cannot generate enough bat speed to do what he did. If I tried it would be at best a fly ball to the warning track.

It only makes sense that if you let gravity help it can increase bat speed. Furthermore, if the hands start high it is not as easy to fly open. Many hitters who start higher have their bat level off on much the same plane as Williams. Obviously this would mean a longer arc.

A mound is flat for the first foot then drops one inch per foot after and is 10" high. A pitcher in high school will stride about 80 - 90% of body length. If he strides 5 feet he is 6" off the ground and his actual release point is a little above his head. However, he has a bent landing leg so he will release about 6 feet above the ground. The lowest part of the strike zone is about 2 feet from the ground so there is, at best, a 4 foot drop over about 55 feet. This creates an angle of about 4.5 degrees. Williams tried to swing with an upswing of 4.5 degrees. He also took the ball out front like Bonds does. (This last sentence could be a whole thread).