LHP and 45 degrees

There is no difference in the rule between RHP and LHP. A step to a base must gain distance and direction to that base. That means that the free foot must land closer to (distance) and more towards that base than any other (direction.)

I can tell you, by your description, that your pitcher balked. If he indeed pause at the top of his lift, that is illegal. That's the elephant balk I would have gotten and not the step balk (not to mention, it occurred first.)

As for the 45-degree thing...there is no such rule. FED includes it in their casebook, and other codes have used it as a rule of thumb, but I don't have a protractor and the criteria above actually meet the intent and the wording of the rule.

The rule is about intent to deceive. The 45 degree thought process is for teaching left handed pitchers. Chances are if he breaks the 45 degree angle intent to deceive exists.

Signed,

Former LHP

First, the balk rule is rarely about "intent to deceive."  If it were, there could never rarely be a pickoff.

Second, all codes have the 45* criteria either in the rules or the interps.  For example, here's the NCAA rule:

6) The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner."Directly" is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.

Third, if a pitcher steps within the 45* angle, he (likely) hasn't committed a "step balk", but he could have committed a different balk.  For example, maybe the body leaned toward the plate (thus committing him to pitch) before the step.  Or, maybe the leg "swung open" before coming back to an angle to throw to first.  (Or, maybe he really did come to a stop at the "balance point")

Agreed.  Nothing in NFHS rules that speaks to 45 degrees.  This is similar to the check swing.  Lots of different guidelines that various people use to help judge intent, but none of these are prescriptive.  It's ultimately the umpire's judgment about whether the pitcher started home before going to first (or offering at a pitch).  That umpire may or may not choose to use the same guides and tools that you use when evaluating the situation.

Based on the OP's description, the umpire did a good job of reading the pitcher, calling the balk, and explaining it to those who asked.  Very nice.  "I wasn't like my pitcher was fully going forward and at the last minute slung the ball to 1st side-armed."  That's not required for a balk.  That quote would describe an obvious, horrific balk.  But, even the slightest move home is a commitment and breaking that commitment is a balk.

I don't have the experience or knowledge Matt does, but I didn't see anything wrong with the slight pause at the top of the motion if it is part of his normal delivery and wasn't egregious.  If it was so egregious to allow the P to scan and respond to on-base movement, then I submit the pitcher made the wrong move.  He should have spun around toward 2 and thrown there, rather than stepping to 1.  NFHS doesn't require the pitcher to pick or feint to an occupied base!  Pitchers can throw/pick/feint to unoccupied bases if it is done to pick off or drive back a base runner attempting to advance.

appreciate the responses....

to clarify the pause at balance, every pitcher does this.  What I was describing is leg lift into the balance position.  Lefties have the ability to pitch or pick to 1B from this position unlike righties. 

From my vantage point in the 3rd base dugout I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  Obviously the HPU felt our LHP had to committed to going home.  That's why I asked him about the 45 degree line.  A good lefty pick is always a borderline balk where you are slightly going home but gain ground towards first.

The only place 45 degree is mentioned is in the case book. Pick up the foot and not gain ground to the base...Balk.

With regard to "gaining ground toward the base"....my son's team played a team in the District finals 2 years ago.  RHP would come set, then just do a quick jump turn and throw to first....absolutely no ground gained....but never once called a balk....even when he did it so quick that he kind of stumbled off the mound TO THE THIRD BASE SIDE!!!   Crazy thing is, the game ended on a bases loaded balk on our pitcher.  We watched the video replay 1000 times and there was no balk of any kind.  Oh, and before anyone says "take the class, be an umpire", I'm going this winter after having considered it for the past 20 years.......should be interesting lol

Had to be therre BUT if he did not gain ground toward the base BALK in other words if his front foot came up and down in the same place it had started THAT'S A BALK!

Polo - Could it be that the RHP disengaged the rubber - and therefore nullified the requirement to "gain ground"?  I'm not sure a RHP can actually throw over to 1B, once he sets, unless he disengages.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Polo - Could it be that the RHP disengaged the rubber - and therefore nullified the requirement to "gain ground"?  I'm not sure a RHP can actually throw over to 1B, once he sets, unless he disengages.

Yes, he can. As I said, there is no difference on what lefties and righties are allowed to do.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

With regard to "gaining ground toward the base"....my son's team played a team in the District finals 2 years ago.  RHP would come set, then just do a quick jump turn and throw to first....absolutely no ground gained....but never once called a balk....even when he did it so quick that he kind of stumbled off the mound TO THE THIRD BASE SIDE!!!   Crazy thing is, the game ended on a bases loaded balk on our pitcher.  We watched the video replay 1000 times and there was no balk of any kind.  Oh, and before anyone says "take the class, be an umpire", I'm going this winter after having considered it for the past 20 years.......should be interesting lol

As you describe it, what the opposing pitcher did is not a balk...and here's why:

A jump turn is considered a move from the rubber. That being said, once the turn is initiated, the intent of the pitcher is clear and anything that would result in a balk would be disadvantageous to him. This is where that clause about "intent to deceive" comes in...if he doesn't gain ground to first, yeah, it's technically a balk, but he actually puts himself at a disadvantage and there is no additional deception (the runner knows he's throwing to first.) That clause is for us NOT to call illegal acts if there is no advantage intended or gained.

As for the game-ending balk, obviously we have no way of knowing.

If you look at the jump move ...I believe that you gain ground because of the position of the feet before and after the jump.

Matt13 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

With regard to "gaining ground toward the base"....my son's team played a team in the District finals 2 years ago.  RHP would come set, then just do a quick jump turn and throw to first....absolutely no ground gained....but never once called a balk....even when he did it so quick that he kind of stumbled off the mound TO THE THIRD BASE SIDE!!!   Crazy thing is, the game ended on a bases loaded balk on our pitcher.  We watched the video replay 1000 times and there was no balk of any kind.  Oh, and before anyone says "take the class, be an umpire", I'm going this winter after having considered it for the past 20 years.......should be interesting lol

As you describe it, what the opposing pitcher did is not a balk...and here's why:

A jump turn is considered a move from the rubber. That being said, once the turn is initiated, the intent of the pitcher is clear and anything that would result in a balk would be disadvantageous to him. This is where that clause about "intent to deceive" comes in...if he doesn't gain ground to first, yeah, it's technically a balk, but he actually puts himself at a disadvantage and there is no additional deception (the runner knows he's throwing to first.) That clause is for us NOT to call illegal acts if there is no advantage intended or gained.

As for the game-ending balk, obviously we have no way of knowing.

The HC at the college the game was being played at is a former MLB pitcher who has worked with my son in the past.  My son used to do the exact same move (he was 12 or 13).  We were told the jump move is legal IF you follow the ball toward first....you can't just jump turn and land flat footed straddling the mound and stay there...you need to "follow" the throw.  With regard to the one where he did the jump turn and fell off the other side of the mound toward 3rd, that one was obvious

I don't understand a jump move "straddling" the mound? Was one footbehind the pitching rubber? Or were his feet parallel to the pitcher's plate and in front of the pitching plate on the jump, if so legal.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Matt13 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

With regard to "gaining ground toward the base"....my son's team played a team in the District finals 2 years ago.  RHP would come set, then just do a quick jump turn and throw to first....absolutely no ground gained....but never once called a balk....even when he did it so quick that he kind of stumbled off the mound TO THE THIRD BASE SIDE!!!   Crazy thing is, the game ended on a bases loaded balk on our pitcher.  We watched the video replay 1000 times and there was no balk of any kind.  Oh, and before anyone says "take the class, be an umpire", I'm going this winter after having considered it for the past 20 years.......should be interesting lol

As you describe it, what the opposing pitcher did is not a balk...and here's why:

A jump turn is considered a move from the rubber. That being said, once the turn is initiated, the intent of the pitcher is clear and anything that would result in a balk would be disadvantageous to him. This is where that clause about "intent to deceive" comes in...if he doesn't gain ground to first, yeah, it's technically a balk, but he actually puts himself at a disadvantage and there is no additional deception (the runner knows he's throwing to first.) That clause is for us NOT to call illegal acts if there is no advantage intended or gained.

As for the game-ending balk, obviously we have no way of knowing.

The HC at the college the game was being played at is a former MLB pitcher who has worked with my son in the past.  My son used to do the exact same move (he was 12 or 13).  We were told the jump move is legal IF you follow the ball toward first....you can't just jump turn and land flat footed straddling the mound and stay there...you need to "follow" the throw.  With regard to the one where he did the jump turn and fell off the other side of the mound toward 3rd, that one was obvious

He's wrong. And I'll say it again...what the opposing pitcher did wasn't a balk.

Matt13 posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Polo - Could it be that the RHP disengaged the rubber - and therefore nullified the requirement to "gain ground"?  I'm not sure a RHP can actually throw over to 1B, once he sets, unless he disengages.

Yes, he can. As I said, there is no difference on what lefties and righties are allowed to do.

Matt - Can you explain how a RHP can in fact throw over to 1b, after he comes set, without disengaging?  I guess I could imagine the move, but in my mond's eye, it looks really silly.  You would have to have a pretty weird step motion to avoid going to HP first - very flexible hips needed to get that step direction legal.

What am I missing?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm taking the word of the former World Series pitcher who actually saw the move multiple times in one game.  I wish I had the video (it used to be on our local TV station's website), but I don't.  I would be interesting to hear some thoughts behind it.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Matt13 posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Polo - Could it be that the RHP disengaged the rubber - and therefore nullified the requirement to "gain ground"?  I'm not sure a RHP can actually throw over to 1B, once he sets, unless he disengages.

Yes, he can. As I said, there is no difference on what lefties and righties are allowed to do.

Matt - Can you explain how a RHP can in fact throw over to 1b, after he comes set, without disengaging?  I guess I could imagine the move, but in my mond's eye, it looks really silly.  You would have to have a pretty weird step motion to avoid going to HP first - very flexible hips needed to get that step direction legal.

What am I missing?

You're really not missing anything. It can be done, but it's often inefficient. That's why righties use the jump turn more. A jab step also fits the bill--RHP with a good jab can be almost as good as LHP.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm taking the word of the former World Series pitcher who actually saw the move multiple times in one game.  I wish I had the video (it used to be on our local TV station's website), but I don't.  I would be interesting to hear some thoughts behind it.

Remember--players generally don't know the rules.

Matt, can you expand your explanation of a RHP jab step?

BMO30 posted:

Matt, can you expand your explanation of a RHP jab step?

It's pretty simple in concept--harder to execute.

From the set, the pitcher simply moves his free foot (his left, for RHPs) quickly and directly towards first, without bending his knee (all the discernable motion is in the hip and sometimes the ankle as it turns.) He turns his upper body simultaneously with the foot and throws. It's tricky because he doesn't pick up his target before he throws and field conditions can cause him to inadvertently hitch in his move. There's a pretty good youtube vid out there somewhere...I'll have to find it.

Matt13 posted

It's pretty simple in concept--harder to execute.

From the set, the pitcher simply moves his free foot (his left, for RHPs) quickly and directly towards first, without bending his knee (all the discernable motion is in the hip and sometimes the ankle as it turns.) He turns his upper body simultaneously with the foot and throws. It's tricky because he doesn't pick up his target before he throws and field conditions can cause him to inadvertently hitch in his move. There's a pretty good youtube vid out there somewhere...I'll have to find it.

I think you're describing here just a throw from the rubber.  A jab step is when the pivot foot first moves toward third and and then (but all in one quick motion) the pitcher turns to throw to first.  Some coaches think the jab step is quicker -- I don't know that any studies have really been done.

And -- the "former MLB pitcher" who said you need to follow the throw to first or else it was a balk is wrong.  What F1 does after the throw has nothing to do with it.

Now, maybe he meant that if F1 had that in his mind his motion would be to first, so it would be less likely he'd balk.  OR, maybe he meant that  the action would lead to a quicker / stronger / more accurate throw.  So, I'm not saying it's wrong for an F1 to do that -- only that it has nothing to do with a balk.

Thanks, Matt, for helping to dispel the myth that a RHP cannot make a move to 1B without first disengaging.  Drives me crazy how many people subscribe to such nonsense.  And, it's not nearly as difficult as some make it seem.  You simply make a direct step to 1B.

With that said, I think I've seen it once in the past 5 years and countless hundreds of baseball games (up through and including varsity).

I'm 99% certain that players don't do it because they and their coaches all believe it's a balk.  It's not.  However, the pitching rules do apply.  Because there was no disengagement, F1 is a pitcher and pitchers cannot feint a throw to 1B.

Oh, and as others have said, playing skill has NOTHING to do with knowing the rules.  The MLB pitcher must have been quite a good ball player.  No doubt he has things he can teach the kids.  Balk rules appears not to be one of them.  Jump move is legal, not a balk.  I think you can even do other web searches to find out this truth.  Here is a good video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBTQhVGiNxE.  The comments are mind-numbing.

Good luck.