i'm no math whiz,and don't like to beat a dead horse but i'm going to.
from home to first 90feet,home to second 127 feet,rubber to home 60 feet 6 inches. which is 7 feet from the center of the infield.which means you would have to step behind the rubber to step to first which would be a balk?unless the 45 degree rule is from the mound to first?then you would step down the first base line slitely?or am i not seeing something?
The 45 "rule of thumb" is not meant to be an exact measurement. Rather, it is meant to be the half way point for a possible landing of the pitcher's foot as he strides home. A LHP can step straight to the plate or straight to first. Of course, he can also step somewhere in between. Most of the time umpires allow lefties to step somewhere between home and first so long as that somewhere is closer to first than home. It is pretty much as simple as that. Obviously, he would need to avoid other factors which can lead to a balk being called.
Again, the problem I encountered with the ump was his belief that the pitcher could not step anywhere but "directly" to first base. I asked about the 45 "rule of thumb" and he said it did not exist. If the 45 is the half way point between first and home then I assume most umpires will allow a kid to step at the 40, 35, 30, etc. However, this ump said no - kid must step directly to first.
Again, the problem I encountered with the ump was his belief that the pitcher could not step anywhere but "directly" to first base. I asked about the 45 "rule of thumb" and he said it did not exist. If the 45 is the half way point between first and home then I assume most umpires will allow a kid to step at the 40, 35, 30, etc. However, this ump said no - kid must step directly to first.
OK, it's time to get the line/45 degree thing straightened out.
From the center of the rubber draw a line to first base. Next, draw a line from the center of the rubber to home plate. Lastly, draw a line from the center of the rubber which is half way between the first two. This last line is from the rubber to the base line between home plate and first base and is nearly perpendicular to the first base line. If the pitcher steps on the first base side of this last line when he throws to first he's ok. If he steps to the home plate side of this line when throwing to first he has balked.
Now please don't ask what the call is if he steps on the line because, frankly speaking, there are no lines there. All of these lines are imaginary and the call of balk or no balk is based on the umpires judgement of the pitcher's motions, actions and the placement of his non-pivot foot while attempting the pickoff.
What is most important if a coach questions an umps balk call is the umpire's explanation. If the ump says that the pitcher didn't step in a straight line toward first base then the ump has given a poor explanation. The pitcher actually has more leeway than that. However, if the ump says that the pitcher's initial motion was toward the plate or that he judged that the pitcher stepped more toward home than first then the ump has given a sound explanation of his call.
Bottom line is this: The ump uses the imaginary lines to assist with making his judgement of the play.
From the center of the rubber draw a line to first base. Next, draw a line from the center of the rubber to home plate. Lastly, draw a line from the center of the rubber which is half way between the first two. This last line is from the rubber to the base line between home plate and first base and is nearly perpendicular to the first base line. If the pitcher steps on the first base side of this last line when he throws to first he's ok. If he steps to the home plate side of this line when throwing to first he has balked.
Now please don't ask what the call is if he steps on the line because, frankly speaking, there are no lines there. All of these lines are imaginary and the call of balk or no balk is based on the umpires judgement of the pitcher's motions, actions and the placement of his non-pivot foot while attempting the pickoff.
What is most important if a coach questions an umps balk call is the umpire's explanation. If the ump says that the pitcher didn't step in a straight line toward first base then the ump has given a poor explanation. The pitcher actually has more leeway than that. However, if the ump says that the pitcher's initial motion was toward the plate or that he judged that the pitcher stepped more toward home than first then the ump has given a sound explanation of his call.
Bottom line is this: The ump uses the imaginary lines to assist with making his judgement of the play.
Pilsner is right again!
This is exactly what the 45 line is. The problem I encounter is the ump saying my son had no leeway, and could step directly to first base. My question is really for most of the umps out there: Do most umps recognize a lefty can step near the 45?
This is exactly what the 45 line is. The problem I encounter is the ump saying my son had no leeway, and could step directly to first base. My question is really for most of the umps out there: Do most umps recognize a lefty can step near the 45?
Well, I can say that I recognize it. And I'm pretty sure guys like PIAA and Michael Taylor recognize it. Umpires who don't recognize it probably don't spend any time reviewing interpretations and rulings that aren't in the rule books. They tend to rule "by" the book and not "with" the book. This doesn't make them bad umps necessarily; just less educated than others.
i was just showing off my math skills. or lack of.i read alot of discussions felt good to get in on one. great explanation pilsner .
"However, there is not supposed to be any move toward home other than his foot not coming down directly toward first but more so toward the imaginary 45."
I agree. Just remember any motion judged to be towards HP could get you rung up.
With that said; think about the Imaginary 45*, and one of the reason's it's not a good theory to use as a coach, player,or Umpire.
That 45* runs off in HP-erly direction, so the closer you get to it the closer you get towards HP as opposed to 1B, that's direction.
Lots of factors:
angle for the umpire is a big one. In your original post, "he was called a couple times", where was the Umpire that called it, 1 man, 2 man, 3 man coverage? Not that it should matter, but it does, a move not called in 2 man may very well be called with a third Umpire.
Attention: I said in my first post, "they cheat", well of course they don't cheat, but they have an advantage, though an umpire can't even that up as PIAA pointed out so correctly.
But,there is simply more for the umpire to focus on in the lefty's motion, which naturally results in more scutiny.
Shoot, give me a season with nothing but Righties any time. In fact I bet I'm not alone in the feeling, ask any base stealer and they'll agree.
Good luck and keep on cheat-n, legally of course.
I agree. Just remember any motion judged to be towards HP could get you rung up.
With that said; think about the Imaginary 45*, and one of the reason's it's not a good theory to use as a coach, player,or Umpire.
That 45* runs off in HP-erly direction, so the closer you get to it the closer you get towards HP as opposed to 1B, that's direction.
Lots of factors:
angle for the umpire is a big one. In your original post, "he was called a couple times", where was the Umpire that called it, 1 man, 2 man, 3 man coverage? Not that it should matter, but it does, a move not called in 2 man may very well be called with a third Umpire.
Attention: I said in my first post, "they cheat", well of course they don't cheat, but they have an advantage, though an umpire can't even that up as PIAA pointed out so correctly.
But,there is simply more for the umpire to focus on in the lefty's motion, which naturally results in more scutiny.
Shoot, give me a season with nothing but Righties any time. In fact I bet I'm not alone in the feeling, ask any base stealer and they'll agree.
Good luck and keep on cheat-n, legally of course.
The Blue that called the balk each time was behind the plate. That is another thing that bugged me, the base blue didn't even see it. I will say that on the first one I believe my son may have allowed a little body movement toward HP. The second one really threw me off, and that is when I asked for the explanation, to which he replied: He cannot step anywhere but directly to first base.
The point I was trying to make earlier and has not yet been digested [so what else is new] is if all the umpire is looking at is the "45 degree angle between home and first" he is not correctly calling a balk or a no balk.
If he is not watching the foot of the LHP as he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. If he is not watching the pitching arm of the LHP as he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. If he is not watching the front shoulder of the LHP before he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. And we could go on but hopefully you get the drift.
As to the question "where is the 45 degree angle" the first point that should be made is IT IS NOT IN THE RULES OF BASEBALL. Second, it is certainly not exactly between home and first. As several posters have pointed out [20dad, Midlo Dad, BobbleheadDoll, et al] each in a somewhat different manner, first base is not located on a line that would be drawn from either the front edge or the back edge of the pitching rubber and parallel with the rubber straight across the field. That line will intersect the first base foul line somewhere between home and first but not equidistant. It will, in fact, intersect considerably closer to the first base area of the foul line.
This mathmatical anomaly of our wonderful game as we inherited it has always presented serious balk problems to the LHP who choses to throw over to first base when occupied while his left foot remains in contact with the pitching rubber rather than step off and throw over to first as many right-handed pitchers [and some left-handed pitchers] choose to do. Remember it is HIS CHOICE. He does not have to try a pickoff move this way. Ha can always step off the rubber and throw over and never have this problem. Always keep in mind he is making a choice when he throws over to first while maintaining constant contact with the pitching rubber
The first problem the LHP has is, if the umpire were to strictly enforce the "step directly to the base" requirement against the LHP who brings his right leg up and out beore throwing to first, there would be a balk every time. Consider the EXACT RULE and the LHP's options.
If the pitcher's right foot moves directly to first base the toes and front part of that foot [unless he has 4 inch feet] must cross behind the back of the pitching rubber and by the "book" he must go home and going to first is a balk. If he would move his right leg to the side but slightly towards home so that no part of his foot does not cross the pitching rubber, by the "book" he would be balking because he did not step "directly to the base."
However, just like the way of other balk rules of the past, accomodation has been made to allow this move and many umpires do not EVER call a balk on a LHP because they don't know a balk when they see one since, as I explained above, under a strict interpretation of the rules it is impossible to make that move to first without a technical balk.
Now we are in serious disagreement [note all previous posts] on how far this accomodation to the actual rules should go to allow the LHP remaining in contact with the rubber a no balk move to first. LHPs and their supporters want to allow a right foot plant anywhere on the first base side of an imaginary line drawn at a 45 degree angle between first and home. You will not get that from me and I will quote you the rule till the cows come home that you must step "directly to the base" which, as I have said, is impossible to do without balking. Neither will you get any acomodation from me if your pitcher balks by throwing directly to first base while in contact with the rubber.
However, you will not get a balk from me if your LHP plants his right foot at a 15 degree angle or less in front of a parallel line drawn straight from the front edge of the pitching rubber to the foul line. Any more than that and you will get a balk called. And no amount of telling me that some one has written somewhere that if I were an "educated" umpire I would know that all umpires are supposed to interpret the phrase "step directly to the base" to mean a foot plant as much as a 45 degree angle off that line is going to change my mind. Because, again and to repeat, the LHP has a choice of moves and by choosing to throw to first while maintaining contact with the pitching rubber, he is choosing the riskest one for a balk call. And if he doesn't do it very carefully and precisely he will have to live with the consequences of a very straightforward and unambiguous rule of baseball and no umpire should ever be faulted on this site or anywhere else for calling the game by the actual rules.
TW344
If he is not watching the foot of the LHP as he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. If he is not watching the pitching arm of the LHP as he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. If he is not watching the front shoulder of the LHP before he starts his delivery, he may be missing something important. And we could go on but hopefully you get the drift.
As to the question "where is the 45 degree angle" the first point that should be made is IT IS NOT IN THE RULES OF BASEBALL. Second, it is certainly not exactly between home and first. As several posters have pointed out [20dad, Midlo Dad, BobbleheadDoll, et al] each in a somewhat different manner, first base is not located on a line that would be drawn from either the front edge or the back edge of the pitching rubber and parallel with the rubber straight across the field. That line will intersect the first base foul line somewhere between home and first but not equidistant. It will, in fact, intersect considerably closer to the first base area of the foul line.
This mathmatical anomaly of our wonderful game as we inherited it has always presented serious balk problems to the LHP who choses to throw over to first base when occupied while his left foot remains in contact with the pitching rubber rather than step off and throw over to first as many right-handed pitchers [and some left-handed pitchers] choose to do. Remember it is HIS CHOICE. He does not have to try a pickoff move this way. Ha can always step off the rubber and throw over and never have this problem. Always keep in mind he is making a choice when he throws over to first while maintaining constant contact with the pitching rubber
The first problem the LHP has is, if the umpire were to strictly enforce the "step directly to the base" requirement against the LHP who brings his right leg up and out beore throwing to first, there would be a balk every time. Consider the EXACT RULE and the LHP's options.
If the pitcher's right foot moves directly to first base the toes and front part of that foot [unless he has 4 inch feet] must cross behind the back of the pitching rubber and by the "book" he must go home and going to first is a balk. If he would move his right leg to the side but slightly towards home so that no part of his foot does not cross the pitching rubber, by the "book" he would be balking because he did not step "directly to the base."
However, just like the way of other balk rules of the past, accomodation has been made to allow this move and many umpires do not EVER call a balk on a LHP because they don't know a balk when they see one since, as I explained above, under a strict interpretation of the rules it is impossible to make that move to first without a technical balk.
Now we are in serious disagreement [note all previous posts] on how far this accomodation to the actual rules should go to allow the LHP remaining in contact with the rubber a no balk move to first. LHPs and their supporters want to allow a right foot plant anywhere on the first base side of an imaginary line drawn at a 45 degree angle between first and home. You will not get that from me and I will quote you the rule till the cows come home that you must step "directly to the base" which, as I have said, is impossible to do without balking. Neither will you get any acomodation from me if your pitcher balks by throwing directly to first base while in contact with the rubber.
However, you will not get a balk from me if your LHP plants his right foot at a 15 degree angle or less in front of a parallel line drawn straight from the front edge of the pitching rubber to the foul line. Any more than that and you will get a balk called. And no amount of telling me that some one has written somewhere that if I were an "educated" umpire I would know that all umpires are supposed to interpret the phrase "step directly to the base" to mean a foot plant as much as a 45 degree angle off that line is going to change my mind. Because, again and to repeat, the LHP has a choice of moves and by choosing to throw to first while maintaining contact with the pitching rubber, he is choosing the riskest one for a balk call. And if he doesn't do it very carefully and precisely he will have to live with the consequences of a very straightforward and unambiguous rule of baseball and no umpire should ever be faulted on this site or anywhere else for calling the game by the actual rules.
TW344
TW344,
I am curious as to how you believe this applies to our conversation: "NFHS Rule Book doesn't refer to 45 degree angle but the NFHS Case Book does on page 50, 6.2.4 SITUATION B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. RULING: Balk. To comply with the requirements to "step directly toward", F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between the center of the pitcher's plate and between home and first base. (6-2-4b)" as quoted by pilsner.
You can talk about the various angles all you want or how the mound is 7 feet in front of the midway point of home and second, however, the interpretation above is clear. From the mound, the 45 is considered the half way angle between first and home. The pitcher is to land on the first base side of that line, and when doing so should not be called for a balk. Your 15 degree angle is made up in your own mind. I understand that the mound is not situated in the middle of first and third. The interpretation above has nothing to do with that. The angle is from the rubber to half way point between first and home. It is pretty simple. It is the same angle a righty has when picking off a runner at third.
Further, a pitcher should not be on such risky ground for doing something that is legal. Of course, he could step off the rubber with less risk. However, he is left handed and this gives him an advantage that he should take advantage of when pitching. It is not the blue's job to take away that advantage. The lefty has many disadvantages - very limited playing positions - why take away this one with a private interpretation? The rule book allows a LHP to throw over to first without taking his left foot off the rubber, and it gives the leeway to plant his right foot when throwing over to first "anywhere" on the first base side of the 45 degree angle between first and home. How can the above explanation be understood any different?
I am curious as to how you believe this applies to our conversation: "NFHS Rule Book doesn't refer to 45 degree angle but the NFHS Case Book does on page 50, 6.2.4 SITUATION B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. RULING: Balk. To comply with the requirements to "step directly toward", F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between the center of the pitcher's plate and between home and first base. (6-2-4b)" as quoted by pilsner.
You can talk about the various angles all you want or how the mound is 7 feet in front of the midway point of home and second, however, the interpretation above is clear. From the mound, the 45 is considered the half way angle between first and home. The pitcher is to land on the first base side of that line, and when doing so should not be called for a balk. Your 15 degree angle is made up in your own mind. I understand that the mound is not situated in the middle of first and third. The interpretation above has nothing to do with that. The angle is from the rubber to half way point between first and home. It is pretty simple. It is the same angle a righty has when picking off a runner at third.
Further, a pitcher should not be on such risky ground for doing something that is legal. Of course, he could step off the rubber with less risk. However, he is left handed and this gives him an advantage that he should take advantage of when pitching. It is not the blue's job to take away that advantage. The lefty has many disadvantages - very limited playing positions - why take away this one with a private interpretation? The rule book allows a LHP to throw over to first without taking his left foot off the rubber, and it gives the leeway to plant his right foot when throwing over to first "anywhere" on the first base side of the 45 degree angle between first and home. How can the above explanation be understood any different?
"It is not the blue's job to take away that advantage"
Now that we all agree ;')
I'll just add, it is pretty clear that a balk call can and will be made regardless of the 45*.
I would go on to say that the relatively few balks I've called on the LHers move to first, my mind was made up before the foot ever hit the ground. I've called very few (on the PO move) and will add I've had even fewer complaints, from either team.
The physics of throwing will naturally move the free foot towards home. Look at a move we'd all agree is perfectly legal. F1 is going to throw to 1B only to check to see if the batter is bunting, no attempt to PO R1. As he starts his throwing motion, his front shoulder and hip rotate towards 1B, clearly a move to 1B in everyone's eyes. As his weight and momentum carry towards 1B and as he begins the throwing motion with the arm, the free foot will wind up nearer to HP than, lets say, his beginning foot print (from set). His foot strike is clearly more towards HP than 1B, no problem, may or not be,close to a 45*, don't care.
Now the "move", as long as there is not momentum towards HP with the front side (hips, shoulders, which could include the free foot) rather, he stays balanced, I could care less about where his free foot strikes.
If his front side moves towards the plate and he stops this momentum and goes to 1B, I've got a balk, regardless if his free foot srikes at 46* or 15*.
Runners get picked because they are either inattentive, over agreesive or guessing. I've just never seen a move so good that runners don't have a fair chance. I will say (with no data to back it up cept memory) that righties get as many PO's as lefties for these same reasons.
Now that we all agree ;')
I'll just add, it is pretty clear that a balk call can and will be made regardless of the 45*.
I would go on to say that the relatively few balks I've called on the LHers move to first, my mind was made up before the foot ever hit the ground. I've called very few (on the PO move) and will add I've had even fewer complaints, from either team.
The physics of throwing will naturally move the free foot towards home. Look at a move we'd all agree is perfectly legal. F1 is going to throw to 1B only to check to see if the batter is bunting, no attempt to PO R1. As he starts his throwing motion, his front shoulder and hip rotate towards 1B, clearly a move to 1B in everyone's eyes. As his weight and momentum carry towards 1B and as he begins the throwing motion with the arm, the free foot will wind up nearer to HP than, lets say, his beginning foot print (from set). His foot strike is clearly more towards HP than 1B, no problem, may or not be,close to a 45*, don't care.
Now the "move", as long as there is not momentum towards HP with the front side (hips, shoulders, which could include the free foot) rather, he stays balanced, I could care less about where his free foot strikes.
If his front side moves towards the plate and he stops this momentum and goes to 1B, I've got a balk, regardless if his free foot srikes at 46* or 15*.
Runners get picked because they are either inattentive, over agreesive or guessing. I've just never seen a move so good that runners don't have a fair chance. I will say (with no data to back it up cept memory) that righties get as many PO's as lefties for these same reasons.
does the 45 rule apply to rightys throwing to third? that's their advantage correct?
Our lefties were 5-1 against lefties for pickoffs. We had 5 lefties and if you look at POs as opposed to canght stealing they were 5-1.
I have several pictures of my son's pickoff at vrious stages. When he is at balance his lift leg foot is directly in line with his left shoulder in a straight line above the rubber. As he drops his front foot it starts forward slightly and towards 1st. His arm never starts towards HP but follows his step (body) towards 1st. Everything follows the body line towards 1st. Post leg lifts comes up and plants well within 45D. the motion is exactly the same as any pitch except it is directed to 1st.
At balance the lift knee is slightly turned back making it easy to move towards 1st.
I don't know how to post these pictures but they show why a LHP can move to 1st fluidly without getting a balk call regardless of the 45D interpretation. A LHP dosen't really have a problem with that but more about forward movement. A motionless balance point is the key to going over to 1st.
I have several pictures of my son's pickoff at vrious stages. When he is at balance his lift leg foot is directly in line with his left shoulder in a straight line above the rubber. As he drops his front foot it starts forward slightly and towards 1st. His arm never starts towards HP but follows his step (body) towards 1st. Everything follows the body line towards 1st. Post leg lifts comes up and plants well within 45D. the motion is exactly the same as any pitch except it is directed to 1st.
At balance the lift knee is slightly turned back making it easy to move towards 1st.
I don't know how to post these pictures but they show why a LHP can move to 1st fluidly without getting a balk call regardless of the 45D interpretation. A LHP dosen't really have a problem with that but more about forward movement. A motionless balance point is the key to going over to 1st.
20dad,
You are correct. The 45 degree guideline would apply to right handers in their move to third. It just isn't discussed much because seldom do you see a third baseman holding a runner. Most of the time if a pitcher believes the runner's lead is too big at third he just steps off the rubber. If he balks or throws the ball away it's costs him a run.
You are correct. The 45 degree guideline would apply to right handers in their move to third. It just isn't discussed much because seldom do you see a third baseman holding a runner. Most of the time if a pitcher believes the runner's lead is too big at third he just steps off the rubber. If he balks or throws the ball away it's costs him a run.
I thought you all might interested to know that a kid off my son's baseball team recently signed with the University of North Florida. He is left handed and has a decent fast ball. What was the other "major" factor for signing? Per his coach: a devistating PO move to first base. I promise you there are very few moves that rival his. I was at a game recently where he picked off two runners in a row and the coach of the other team went crazy - calling for a balk. The blue never did call it.
You simply cannot steal on him - he will pick you off. Of course, as he gets into better comp there will be runners who can steal on him. He brings his knee to the top while looking to first with his lead shoulder pointed to the plate. At the very moment his knee starts down he looks to the plate and steps as close to the 45 as possible, and throws blind over to first. The trick is to keep the lead shoulder pointed to the plate while looking at the catcher. My son learned his move from this guy. I believe it is Coach Maack (Dallas - Prestonwood Acadamy)who teaches this move at length.
You simply cannot steal on him - he will pick you off. Of course, as he gets into better comp there will be runners who can steal on him. He brings his knee to the top while looking to first with his lead shoulder pointed to the plate. At the very moment his knee starts down he looks to the plate and steps as close to the 45 as possible, and throws blind over to first. The trick is to keep the lead shoulder pointed to the plate while looking at the catcher. My son learned his move from this guy. I believe it is Coach Maack (Dallas - Prestonwood Acadamy)who teaches this move at length.
The 45 degree rule did not even last a full season in the majors, the rule does not exist because it violates the balk rule that you have to step directly at the base with no motion to the plate.
As we've all stated many times on this thread, we know there is not a rule about the 45. However, there is an interpretation rule, application rule, case rule, or whatever it is called, that does address the 45 for HS play.
quote:We had 5 lefties and if you look at POs as opposed to canght stealing they were 5-1.
Good numbers,5 lefties! I'd be screaming too if I was on O. "Come on blue their all cheatn".
How many successful stolen bases against these same 5?
I don't have the stats on that but not too many.
My son was pitching in a AAA Ontario Baseball game in Toronto. It was a championship game and he had been on the mound 4 out of 5 days. Mostly pro camps. He had 1 day rest against the top Toronto district team. He frankly was giving up hits as he was tired and not getting great bite on his CBs. He picked 5 guys off in a complete game 0-0 tie. The opponents were chanting balk balk balk the whole time he pitched. The UMP went over to him and told him he was no where near a balk and to ignore the crowd. We were at their park and I was sitting on their side. I finally stood up after a few innings and said " there is nothing worse than sitting witha bleacher full of Umpires " Things got a little threatening but I stayed where I was.
The funniest PO was when their stud player got on 1st. His coach told him to stay close to the bag. He took step 2 and told his coach he was ready and not to worry. Bang he hardly got the words out of his mouth. He just froze and had this look of disbelief on his face.
My son just got nominated for rookie of the year in his summer league. This team is full of ex pros and US college players and average age would be about 25. His PO move was sited as a big factor in the nomination.
My son was pitching in a AAA Ontario Baseball game in Toronto. It was a championship game and he had been on the mound 4 out of 5 days. Mostly pro camps. He had 1 day rest against the top Toronto district team. He frankly was giving up hits as he was tired and not getting great bite on his CBs. He picked 5 guys off in a complete game 0-0 tie. The opponents were chanting balk balk balk the whole time he pitched. The UMP went over to him and told him he was no where near a balk and to ignore the crowd. We were at their park and I was sitting on their side. I finally stood up after a few innings and said " there is nothing worse than sitting witha bleacher full of Umpires " Things got a little threatening but I stayed where I was.
The funniest PO was when their stud player got on 1st. His coach told him to stay close to the bag. He took step 2 and told his coach he was ready and not to worry. Bang he hardly got the words out of his mouth. He just froze and had this look of disbelief on his face.
My son just got nominated for rookie of the year in his summer league. This team is full of ex pros and US college players and average age would be about 25. His PO move was sited as a big factor in the nomination.
I do reconize the 45 line. you look at most RH pitchers that jump step or jab step they don't get all the way around either. Would you want us to balk that also?
What didn't last long in MLB was the experiment with an actual chalk line on the mound. It was tyried in Spring training and quickly 86'D.
As in most balk discussions people get hung up on deceiving runners. That isn't really the definition of a balk. There portions that are but others that are techinical in nature. I tell coaches if they are getting called for balks teach another move. Whether it is technically correct, but so close that some balk it then figure another PO move. It isn't worth the trouble.
What didn't last long in MLB was the experiment with an actual chalk line on the mound. It was tyried in Spring training and quickly 86'D.
As in most balk discussions people get hung up on deceiving runners. That isn't really the definition of a balk. There portions that are but others that are techinical in nature. I tell coaches if they are getting called for balks teach another move. Whether it is technically correct, but so close that some balk it then figure another PO move. It isn't worth the trouble.
If the pitcher does not directly to the base it is a balk, there is no imaginary 45*, that rule does not exist as pointed out earlier and should not be used for umpires for guidance. If the player steps with a 45 degree angle in reference to the base and home plate, this is a balk, bottom line.
johntaine21,
The 45 degree guideline that I referred to earlier from the NFHS Case Book does indeed exist. Are you implying that I fabricated it?
The 45 degree guideline that I referred to earlier from the NFHS Case Book does indeed exist. Are you implying that I fabricated it?
It exists in Fed and is accepted practice in OBR.
certainly exists in all the accepted advanced umpiring manuals.....I understand it, I know it, and I use it as a guide, not a rule.....step more towards the base and I have no problem....dont and I have a balk...and its my decision which it is....
After 800 posts -reading most- I wasn't going to comment but when I say qualified Umpires on this board, especially J. Michael Taylor, who has helped me immensely concering HS FED, OBR and Legion [MLB] - I can only encourage those coaches and/or dads to read what they are sharing with us.
In some High School Programs Coaches do everything including sell popcorn. I've had to teach all facets of the game at one point or another. Other years you become blessed to have former playes come back, allowing you to delegate.
When I taught the LHP pickoff move, I went out and educated myself from the bottom to the top.
Somewhere in the middle you will find resistance BUT the 45 degree teaching principle DOES EXIST in baseball parlance. Heck even our runners to first base stay in the running box UNTIL they get TO the bag - when they have to return to fair ground to hit first.
If you find an umpire or another baseball-type person who refutes that it doesn't exist, rise above it and so note it. Good baseball coaches and educated Umpires like J. Michael Taylor "teach from the perch", but as important, they pull us UP with them, and make us all better.
Mr. Shermanreed, several people have come at you from a lot of directions, some good - some not so good. Several posts where trying to impart knowledge and help you. Even the simplest one..."if it's getting called..something must be wrong..." You did not start out on solid ground by using (incorrectly) the term..."his shoulders are square with home plate..." Not only did someone else beat me to it, you took care of it and said you used the phrase incorrectly.
If you take the tip of the pitchers rubber on the first base side and draw a line to the line that coincides with the "running lane" there are some similarities. Good umpires will reward a good LHP that has worked on his craft and honed that particular skill. But good umpires need some methodology to coordinate sanity within a game we all love. The 800+ posts on this site take over an hour to read and the pickoff you describe - takes seconds to complete, whether successful, OR called a balk.
We DO get the picture: your son IS very good at what he does, it is just that he is NOT the ONLY good, young crafty lefty with this move. He is NOT the only LHP that has fooled his OWN firstbaseman.
Do you have your son .."walk off and cover his footsteps"...on the way back up to the slap, as all hell is breaking loose with all the shouts of: "THAT'S A BALK"....?
Have you lowered his arm slot on his "45" ft move to first, so that it is even MORE deceptive and takes the emphasis off the footplacement etc?
Because you are so proud of his move, do you "show it early"...or do you save it for when it is needed? Possibly your sons command of the strike zone or the offensive prowess of his teammates would allow his team to not need his PO move until you play the same opponent later in the schedule....
I've had two leftys in the last four years who were legendary in high school and college. One, like your son, could pick off a runner with "no lead" and it caused opposing coaches to get into shouting matches with each other over their lack of disregard. This LHP got rewarded by local umpires for his craftiness, who was also a very humble kid. As simple as this sounds I overheard an umpire tell a ****ed off opposing coach,..."hey, its been his move for all four years at this school..."
When we travelled to Reno in the summer Legion tournaments, he was called for HIS BALK (move) all the time, and I really had no problem with the balk call, because his move was so unconventional. (he had amazing upper body control)
The other leftys move was AS GOOD, but his 'move' caused him to have no command or location and he would get himself in trouble, always behind in the count.
Mrshermanreed, I'll leave you with this: any outstanding base stealer can and will steal more bases off a LHP with an A+ move compared with a RHP with an A+ move, and I am not just talking about guys who go on "first move".
Now my post was 801....but I had to hav MST's back and others who tried to impart there wisdom to all of us but especially to Sherm-Reed.
Peace/Out
Mike
Post 82
San Mateo California
In some High School Programs Coaches do everything including sell popcorn. I've had to teach all facets of the game at one point or another. Other years you become blessed to have former playes come back, allowing you to delegate.
When I taught the LHP pickoff move, I went out and educated myself from the bottom to the top.
Somewhere in the middle you will find resistance BUT the 45 degree teaching principle DOES EXIST in baseball parlance. Heck even our runners to first base stay in the running box UNTIL they get TO the bag - when they have to return to fair ground to hit first.
If you find an umpire or another baseball-type person who refutes that it doesn't exist, rise above it and so note it. Good baseball coaches and educated Umpires like J. Michael Taylor "teach from the perch", but as important, they pull us UP with them, and make us all better.
Mr. Shermanreed, several people have come at you from a lot of directions, some good - some not so good. Several posts where trying to impart knowledge and help you. Even the simplest one..."if it's getting called..something must be wrong..." You did not start out on solid ground by using (incorrectly) the term..."his shoulders are square with home plate..." Not only did someone else beat me to it, you took care of it and said you used the phrase incorrectly.
If you take the tip of the pitchers rubber on the first base side and draw a line to the line that coincides with the "running lane" there are some similarities. Good umpires will reward a good LHP that has worked on his craft and honed that particular skill. But good umpires need some methodology to coordinate sanity within a game we all love. The 800+ posts on this site take over an hour to read and the pickoff you describe - takes seconds to complete, whether successful, OR called a balk.
We DO get the picture: your son IS very good at what he does, it is just that he is NOT the ONLY good, young crafty lefty with this move. He is NOT the only LHP that has fooled his OWN firstbaseman.
Do you have your son .."walk off and cover his footsteps"...on the way back up to the slap, as all hell is breaking loose with all the shouts of: "THAT'S A BALK"....?
Have you lowered his arm slot on his "45" ft move to first, so that it is even MORE deceptive and takes the emphasis off the footplacement etc?
Because you are so proud of his move, do you "show it early"...or do you save it for when it is needed? Possibly your sons command of the strike zone or the offensive prowess of his teammates would allow his team to not need his PO move until you play the same opponent later in the schedule....
I've had two leftys in the last four years who were legendary in high school and college. One, like your son, could pick off a runner with "no lead" and it caused opposing coaches to get into shouting matches with each other over their lack of disregard. This LHP got rewarded by local umpires for his craftiness, who was also a very humble kid. As simple as this sounds I overheard an umpire tell a ****ed off opposing coach,..."hey, its been his move for all four years at this school..."
When we travelled to Reno in the summer Legion tournaments, he was called for HIS BALK (move) all the time, and I really had no problem with the balk call, because his move was so unconventional. (he had amazing upper body control)
The other leftys move was AS GOOD, but his 'move' caused him to have no command or location and he would get himself in trouble, always behind in the count.
Mrshermanreed, I'll leave you with this: any outstanding base stealer can and will steal more bases off a LHP with an A+ move compared with a RHP with an A+ move, and I am not just talking about guys who go on "first move".
Now my post was 801....but I had to hav MST's back and others who tried to impart there wisdom to all of us but especially to Sherm-Reed.
Peace/Out
Mike
Post 82
San Mateo California
Thanks for the vote of confidence. 
quote:Do you have your son .."walk off and cover his footsteps"...on the way back up to the slap, as all hell is breaking loose with all the shouts of: "THAT'S A BALK"....?
hahahaha I do that every time
Don't want to get involved in discussion but
"Brent Leach-LA DODGERS MINOR LEAGUE LHP"
This pitcher has the best pick-off move of any pitcher I've seen anywhere in years! peace Shep
"Brent Leach-LA DODGERS MINOR LEAGUE LHP"
This pitcher has the best pick-off move of any pitcher I've seen anywhere in years! peace Shep
Mstaylor...you're welcome.You helped me alot on B-E.com and I have a long memory!!
I wasn't going to give it ago, but SO MANY people were giving good advice to Sherm...and when I saw a quote about..."he's trying to fool the runner into believing he's going to the plate...", I knew I had to contribute 2 1/2 cents.
"Squaring shoulders to the plate and fooling the runner...." the teacher to pupil agenda is misguided in that particular scenario.
The Messengers were being shot for the message they were trying to deliver. On the San Francisco Peninsula we have our PBUA and every once in awhile we get assigned a poor crew, or more likely a vetern with a newcomer.
Like putting in a defensive replacement (who may not be your first choice) ....the ball is going to "find him".
At the American Legion State tournament two years ago in Yountville, Napa, California, there was a 4 man crew for our finals. Our SS was trying to run down several pop ups over the course of a nine inning semi final.
He and the Umpire on the 3rd base line ran into each other 4 times. I was seething, but what are you going to do. Arguing was not going to cure cancer. Our SS caught 3 of the 4. Their crew chief was very chagrined.
Lastly on balks, I try to pick my battles. Some coaches find something to argue about with a zero-zero game, nobody on, two outs....in the bottom of the 3rd.
Thanks for all the guidance.
Mike
SanMateoPost82
California
I wasn't going to give it ago, but SO MANY people were giving good advice to Sherm...and when I saw a quote about..."he's trying to fool the runner into believing he's going to the plate...", I knew I had to contribute 2 1/2 cents.
"Squaring shoulders to the plate and fooling the runner...." the teacher to pupil agenda is misguided in that particular scenario.
The Messengers were being shot for the message they were trying to deliver. On the San Francisco Peninsula we have our PBUA and every once in awhile we get assigned a poor crew, or more likely a vetern with a newcomer.
Like putting in a defensive replacement (who may not be your first choice) ....the ball is going to "find him".
At the American Legion State tournament two years ago in Yountville, Napa, California, there was a 4 man crew for our finals. Our SS was trying to run down several pop ups over the course of a nine inning semi final.
He and the Umpire on the 3rd base line ran into each other 4 times. I was seething, but what are you going to do. Arguing was not going to cure cancer. Our SS caught 3 of the 4. Their crew chief was very chagrined.
Lastly on balks, I try to pick my battles. Some coaches find something to argue about with a zero-zero game, nobody on, two outs....in the bottom of the 3rd.
Thanks for all the guidance.
Mike
SanMateoPost82
California
JH...
Then if you "take care of your footsteps" while the opposing fans,coaches and players in the dugout are having a melt down, you were taught and learned how to play the game...correctly.
Thanks for the response (ha ha DoItAllTheTime)
Then if you "take care of your footsteps" while the opposing fans,coaches and players in the dugout are having a melt down, you were taught and learned how to play the game...correctly.
Thanks for the response (ha ha DoItAllTheTime)
Shepster
So...any footage of Mr Leach LA Dodgers?
SMPOST82
mike
California
So...any footage of Mr Leach LA Dodgers?
SMPOST82
mike
California
smpost- Well I don't know about correctly but it works fine enough when they freak out haha. I used to watch Andy Pettitte when he was on the Yankees and by time I made the move to the big diamond (I guess at 12), I basically emulated his move. He has quite a good one.
MLSB Videocameraman has some footage, I do believe. Also Terry Collins may have some but coaches in Japan now but Bob Welch or the new assistant GM LW probably has some footage. Let me see what I can digup for us Mike. That could be an interesting debate peace Shep
peace Shep
Former college and current Texas HS coach Mike Maack has an excellent book on leftys called The Move. This should be must reading for HS/college pitchers and their coaches. Coach Maack is a much desired clinic speaker also. I think he can be reached at mmaack@prestonwood.org.
Mike Maack is the coach that we learned our pick off move from. And yes, my son does walk to first base when he uses his "best" move. He just used it twice in a tourny this past weekend and the umpire told my catcher "boy, that was close to being a balk."
BTW, I never said or insinuated that my son had a move like no one else. Of course there are other LHP with great moves - tell me something I don't already know. To be honest, I am not really that "proud" of it either. My question from the beginning was whether or not most umpires recognize the 45.
BTW, I never said or insinuated that my son had a move like no one else. Of course there are other LHP with great moves - tell me something I don't already know. To be honest, I am not really that "proud" of it either. My question from the beginning was whether or not most umpires recognize the 45.