Life as one of the 8 non-scholarship players on D1 roster.

At major DI programs, the 35-man roster limitation makes the recruited walk-on's position quite tenuous. With all of the uncontrollable variables at work on both the entering class and returning players, it's not uncommon to find Division I programs that have more than 35 players on the field the first day of Fall Baseball.

 

While the roster doesn't have to be pared until just prior to the start of the regular season, you can be assured that players and coaches, alike, are eyeing the end of Fall Baseball as the time when some tough decisions are going to be required.

 

If a Division I coach faces the prospect of having to trim the roster by cutting players, the high probability is that he will cut the player who has no athletic money, first; even though his performance might have edged out that of  his teammate who receives an athletic scholarship. A significant influence on this is that the decision to cut the non-athletic scholarship player carries no adverse effect upon the program's Academic Progress Rate number.

 

Also at play is the frequent supposition on the coach's part that the player who was already making it financially without athletic money will likely be able to continue to carry the financial load required to complete his degree; whereas the player receiving athletic money is more likely to be considered dependent (at least, in part) upon his athletic grant-in-aid.

 

Prior to the imposition of the 35-man restriction, players and coaches, alike, benefited from the leeway that the restriction's absence afforded them. It's a terrible rule; one that affects the walk-on most.

Q. Is it right to assume that those 8 (or more) non-scholarship players are mostly recruited? 

A. Yes.  Nearly 100%.  The number of non-recruited walk-ons who make D1 rosters is vanishingly small.

 

Q.  Are all places required to hold open tryouts?

A. No.  Some states and some schools require them, but there is no NCAA rule requiring it.  Even where open tryouts are held, it is extremely rare for a player to show up at an open tryout and make the fall roster.  When it does happen, it's most often a potential bullpen catcher.  Bear in mind the open tryouts usually occur around the first official practice day in mid- to late September, by which time the recruited players (both scholarship and non-scholarship) have already been working together for several weeks, going through conditioning drills, skill work, four-on-ones, and player-led practices.  It's nearly impossible for a non-recruited player to show up at the open tryout and gain entry to this already well defined unit.

 

Q. Do recruited walk-ons sometimes lose roster spots in early tryouts?

A. Recruited walk-ons don't participate in the open tryouts.  They're already on the fall roster (even though won't get posted until after the open tryouts).  A lot of times, the open tryout occurs on the first official day of fall practice--but after the team has finished its practice or scrimmage.  The recruited walk-ons participate in the practice, not the tryout.

 

Assumption:  I assume up front a recruited walk-on won't get much playing time.

Assessment of assumption.  Often true, but there are lots and lots of notable exceptions.  Coaches make scholarship investments based largely on their talent evaluations.  They are open to having non-scholarship players prove them wrong, but it's not easy because the coaches are usually right.

 

Q. What are the odds of a recruited non-scholarship player not ending up on the roster at all?

A. It depends on the school.  Many D1's start fall practice with between 38 and 45 players.  There could be as many as 18 or 20 recruited walk-ons competing for as few as 8 roster spots.  At D1's that aren't fully funded, there may be only 32 or so players on the fall roster and everyone who stays eligible and out of trouble can make the spring roster.  At a very few very competitive D1's, they don't make the final cuts until a few days before the spring season starts, after it's too late for the last players cut to transfer to a JUCO or a D2.  Most players at most schools know their status at the end of fall practice.

 

Q. How often does a recruited walk-on remain in that status for multiple years?  Do most quit or get pushed aside after, say, a year?

A. Regardless of whether they are scholarship or non-scholarship players, most D1 college players have a limited time to convince the coaches they are ready to help the team win.  Attrition is high for both groups of players at most D1 schools.  Look at the recruiting history for schools your son is interested in.  A school that brings in 18-20 players a year can sustain that level of recruiting only if half or more of each class doesn't come back for their sophomore year.  School that bring in 10-12 each year can sustain that pace with normal, unforced attrition.

 

Best wishes,

 

Great posts Prepster and Swampboy.   All of this is true with non athetic scholarship D1 conferences (Patriot & Ivy) as well.  There may be a little bit more open-mindedness from the coaches for Fall tryouts and potential walk-ons but it is mostly the same tenuous situation. 

 

If you like drama and uncertainty being a recruited D1 walk-on (anywhere) is the place for you.  

I would also think that the reason to trim the walk-on's first, even if they edged out the scholly player, is that it would reflect negatively on the teams recruiting skills and also the HC's ability to recruit top talent in the future

 

Fenway - I know you've walked us through this once or twice before... give or take a hundred times... but as the OP noted, it's good to have everything in one thread (again). So given that Ivy and Patriot leagues operate somewhat like D3s in terms of recruitment, how does a "recruited walk on" differ from a "guaranteed roster spot"... And are these even the designations used? How are rostered players designated season to season... As new recruits show up, is every returning player's roster spot technically open to competition from walk-ons and new recruits? I know this doesn't happen a lot, so just wondering what keeps it from happening... What keeps Ivy/Patriot HCs from over recruiting the way some other D1 programs do each Fall... And the same way that more than a few D3s do every year, knowing they can keep as many guys as they want.

SG

 

The Ivies really don't have the over recruitment issues.

 

First, each school can issue only a limited number of Likely Letters (the Ivy NLI - without the money). That number is between six at the low end (Yale and Brown [which have tried to deemphasize sports]) and eight at the high end. The players who receive the coveted Likely Letters are really good players - most also received offers from D1 powerhouses. They represent the rare combination of near perfect academics (while taking the most difficult courses at their HS) and top tier baseball players. 

 

All other participants (the true walk ons) must get in on their own in competition with all the rest of the applicants. For those players, there is a roughly 2% admission chance (roughly the admissions chances of non-hooked applicants) at Harvard, Yale, Columbia and Princeton with a higher chance at Dartmouth, Penn, Cornell and Brown (but still ridiculously small). The  coaches, for that tier, have no influence in admissions. So, the pool of available walk ons is very very small.

 

Second, because the number of Likely Letter players is only 24-30 over any four year period, there is plenty of room for more players - if they are good enough.

 

A look at the APRs at these schools show a near perfect score - no one really leaves the school without the degree (for the juniors who were drafted, most return the next two fall semesters to finish). On the roster of which I am familiar over a four year period one freshman recipient of a LL quit the team as did two seniors (not in a single year, mind you - but over four years). Not a single walk on quit - and some got only a handful of at bats over four years.

 

Moreover, because no athletic scholarships are given, none can be taken away; there is no financial reason to stay on a team. Team stability is amazing; the players simply love the team, the environment, and ultimately they get great jobs (which, to me, has become a critical component in choosing a school).

 

As for playing time for the walk ons, if they earn it, they get it. Most of the schools use the pre-league games to find that out. Pre-league play at S's school was one long tryout as the puzzle pieces were placed.

Since the term "recruited walk-on" is frequently used when coaches, prospects, and parents are talking about recruiting, I thought I would provide some information that may be helpful to HS prospects and parents, especially if they are being recruited by, or if their goal is, a Division I baseball program.  The point I want to make with this info is that if a baseball player is considering a transfer from one four-year school to a Division I program, it may be better to not be "recruited."

 

The link below will take you to an article I wrote on our website in 2011, but which is still relevant today.  That link will, in turn, take you to another article from 2012 which defines a "recruited athlete" for purposes of the NCAA rules. 

 

Just keep in mind that when coaches are using the phrase "recruited walk-on", "recruited prospect", or "recruited athlete", they may not be using that term in the same way "recruited" is defined in the NCAA Manual. The key is that as little as two phone calls from four-year college coaches will define a prospect as "recruited" even though they may get a hundred e-mails from the same coaching staff, and they would not be "recruited" per the NCAA definition.

 

Here's the link to the article:

 

http://www.informedathlete.com/walk-on-transfer-rules

 

I should also add that, while I didn't specify it when I wrote the article in 2011, the same rule applies for a player transferring to a Division I program from any other four-year program if they were "recruited" to the original program.

... a related question:  my 2015 RHP son (6'3"/195) has some D 1 interest ... has had 3 unofficial visits at one school, including going to a basketball game with 4 other recruits, and a baseball game, as well as a day with the baseball operations guy with a sit down with HC.

 

But he seems to be a "tweener".  His velo touches 85, but he misses the barrel and gets outs with a good change-up and decent slider.   Given that it is getting late in the game, is it smart for him to start asking some of his target schools that he has been talking to whether they would consider him as a "recruited walk on"?   Or should he just shift his focus to the D2s he has been talking to?

SG,

 

I think Goosegg did a great job of hitting the high points.  In addition, I've seen  many differences and nuances within Ivy programs.  Remember it is just an athletic conference.  These are business partners that do a great job of providing more sports teams than any other conference.  Each of these schools is very different.   Some Ivy schools allow transfers, others don't.  My son's school allowed transfers (it is uniquely both a public and private charter) while Goosegg's son's college is or was considering transfers.  You also have other athletes from other sports who want to try out for baseball and are encouraged (hounded!) by the baseball coach to do so.   Son's program had a handful of football players, and in some cases won starting positions over the years.  These former football players had a significant part in my son's team winning a conference championship a few years ago. Roster numbers vary considerably between Ivy schools as Coaches can increase or decrease internal competition based on the Coaches needs and cost(s) to the program,  These are all external factors that I've seen come into play for "walk-ons" in addition to those mentioned by Goosegg above.

 

Goosegg said....

quote:

"Team stability is amazing; the players simply love the team, the environment, and ultimately they get great jobs (which, to me, has become a critical component in choosing a school)."

  Well said Goosegg.  Goosegg's son was one of those rare kids who was fortunate enough to have a choice between professional baseball or something else.  His son is a great example for those considering this path.

Sluggerdad,

 

Just to clarify, a team does not HAVE to have walk-ons.

 

The key rule is that no more than 27 players may receive aid.  If the team has more than 27 rostered players, you can deduce that at least some walk-ons are there.  So if a team carries the max 35, then there are at least 8.

 

But many schools carry fewer than 35 on their rosters, so they may not have 8.

 

Or they may have more, if they don't have full funding of 11.7, if they choose to concentrate money into fewer hands, etc.

 

I think the key thing I would point out is that, once you pay your bills, the life of a walk-on is a lot like the life of a scholly player.  I would say "identical," but that would be an overstatement.  I think a recruited kid getting money is going to get some preference in opportunities, the same way a pro bonus baby will get preferential treatment in the low minors.  But the workouts are the same, the time commitment is the same, and in the end, if you can play, you'll play.

Son was playing in a showcase at a top D1 school one Labor Day weekend and the parents and players got to tour their locker rooms.  A quick count noted that there were 34 lockers with names on them....and one without.  Ok....the nameplate of #35 could have still been at the print shop, but it looked as if "there was room for one more".

 

Several years ago while watching Georgia Tech on TV the announcer was commenting on the freshman pitcher on the mound that day.  He was a walk on, and doing very well (I can't remember his name...sorry).  The player wanted to go to Georgia Tech, no matter what, and the summer before attending his HS coach called the GT coach and said he needed to take a good look at this guy trying out as a walk on.  Glad it worked out for him!

I heard of an un-recruited walk-on that got cut his first year.  He tried out again and made it the following year.

 

Maybe you have heard of him...his name is Brett Gardner.

Your son is a perfect size/profile for a solid D3 program, providing he has decent grades and can get some academic money. IMO if he went to a D1 as a non scholly player and did not develop to whatever the internal D1 plan is he could be left off the roster in either the first or second year. 

I also think it can vary greatly on the type of school you are receiving this type of offer from.

 

My son is currently pondering an offer from a small private D1 school.  They would like to get him into school with no baseball money.  Based on his academic and extra curricular profile they are confident that they can get him to a very sizable offer and have told him they would supplement to the agreed percentage with baseball money if they had to.

 

He would sign no letter of intent so would basically be a walk on with a guaranteed roster spot.  Two of last year starters including a freshman all american have this deal currently.  They typically roster 30-31 and kids who don't play much appear on next year's roster.

 

We believe the coaching staff when they say this gets my son way more dollars than a baseball offer would.  This academic/institutional money doesn't go away if he gets hurt or doesn't develop/produce in a way all parties hope.  

 

This whole issue comes down to what the staff has shown to be their track record in the past and your own personal beliefs about the staff's trustworthiness and if they do what they say.  Gather all the information you can and then trust your gut.

So I am looking at a certain west coast D-1 that has a total of 39 players on their "2015 Roster."  How is that possible if there is a 35-man maximum?  I've counted it twice, and it's definitely 39?  4 extra red shirts?  Any idea?

^^^^Are you looking at the official school roster, or an affiliated site?  

 

247sports.com  has 40 players listed on roster for an east coast school for 2015.  I probably should check it against the official school's roster to see who didn't make it, but I am not going to waste my time

Yes, "XXXXX Baseball Roster 2015" from their official school site.  Yeah it's their site, and not some "ESPN roster" or "247 Roster" etc. 

Someone is in trouble.....

 

Official rosters do not have to be submitted by the school to the NCAA until the start of the season, so whatever you see on a website is a recommendation

The presentation of Fall rosters on official websites can vary from program to program. At times, they will post the names of all players who are on the field during Fall Baseball; with the knowledge that they will have to remove some names before the beginning of the regular season next Spring if the Fall roster totals more than the limit of 35.

 

Others will simply leave the prior season's roster up until they determine who is going to make the roster that they submit to the NCAA just before the beginning of the regular season. In those cases, it's impossible to tell from the official website how many are on the field during Fall Baseball.

Ahhhh............sounds logical.  Thank you. 

 

So any roster posted on school's athletic page is not the "official" roster.  Just one for public consumption.  Makes sense the "official roster" would have to be one "officially" submitted to "officials" at NCAA in some (sorry but I have to say it) "official" manner, therefore making it the "official" roster; unlike the one posted on school's web page. 

 

 

Lots to think about here: D1, D2, D3, NAIA, Ivy. Recruited walk-on, Likely Letter recipient.

 

Every player is unique -- and not discounting the benefits of just being 'on the team,' ... if a young man loves baseball, I say go where you will PLAY.

If they list 39 names in the fall, some of those names will disappear by February.

 

This is why many programs don't update the rosters on their web sites until winter.  Often when you go there, you'll see the roster from last spring.

So riddle me this.  Back in the day, we used to build our roster from the bottom up.  We tried to pick the best of the least talented kids as soon as possible.  So with the scholarship and roster limitations, would it not make sense to really recruit the walkons.  Show them you love them, without the money.  Wouldn't that give you more depth and better competition.  If you could keep some really good players, rather than having them sign at another school, wouldn't that make your program better?  Why treat them as scrubs?   

Also keep in mind not all recruited walk ons are kids the coaches felt were just below giving money to. They could be getting money from somewhere else. A local small D1 I know of has a full 35 man roster and of the 8 non scholorship players 3 are on full academic rides and 2 on football rides with 3 of those players being starters. So the actual non scholorship players are competing for 3 spots instead of 8

I'd be interested in how the non-scholarship pool gets filled at some higher end D1 schools with good/great baseball programs.  I assume there were lots of kids who were offered roster spots with no money who simply dropped a small notch and got good money at another school.  I imagine there are instances of full academic rides where a coach simply does not have to provide any athletic money (but may have if that is what it took to land the prospect - I'm thinking a Virginia or a Vanderbilt might have one of these type guys).  Two way athletes probably few and far between at these top schools although Jamies Winston certainly comes to mind.  I suppose there are a handful that always wanted to pay at State U and jump at the chance to be on the roster - money or no money - despite having some other offers elsewhere.  Lastly, I suppose some Juniors and especially Seniorshave their scholarships taken to zero but retain their roster spot.

 

Does anyone have any first hand insight into what this particular "group of eight" often looks like?