by Somax Analysis
YouTube
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Interesting! Thanks!
In my eyes the 97 MPH is explained by the bodily gifts he was born with
For me you have it in your body or your do not !!!
For me you have it in your body or your do not !!!
I know a kid (young man) in MiLB (no relation) who studied Lincecum's mechanics, altered his own to use some of it...and gained 5 mph in a short time. He's fun to watch pitch and it tells me there's something to it.
.
Your choice TR. Would you prefer to eat...
Or drink?
.
- "For me you have it in your body or your do not !!!"
Your choice TR. Would you prefer to eat...
Or drink?
.
Truly not appreciated !!!!!
Most of what they are saying could only be true under one circumstance!
The ball would have had to be moving forwards during all of these pre-launch articulations. It is not!! Therefore this mechanical analysis has no merit and should be ignored.
The reason people pitch or throw fast is because of the higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber compared to slow twitch percentages. This is a Kinesiological fact! and any attempt to change or misrepresent this Exercise physiological tenet is foolish.
Before making foolish comparisons between rocket ships and the athletic kinetic chain (that is broken several times while performing the traditional pitching motion) you might think they would have kept an eye on the payload.
The ball would have had to be moving forwards during all of these pre-launch articulations. It is not!! Therefore this mechanical analysis has no merit and should be ignored.
The reason people pitch or throw fast is because of the higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber compared to slow twitch percentages. This is a Kinesiological fact! and any attempt to change or misrepresent this Exercise physiological tenet is foolish.
Before making foolish comparisons between rocket ships and the athletic kinetic chain (that is broken several times while performing the traditional pitching motion) you might think they would have kept an eye on the payload.
Not to be critical or anything but the information in the video is at least partially flawed. Before getting into it much I do absolutley love Lincecum and his mechanics. I believe he is the best pitcher in the big leagues right now.
I have issues with a long stride equating to low ERA's and long careers. Two of my favorite pitchers of all time are Randy Johnson and Walter Johnson. They both had long careers, threw very hard and were successful pitchers. But their strides were anything but long. In fact, they had some of the shortest strides to height ratio out there. Randy Johnson here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbaKWvLFKjc
and Walter Johnson here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnSasG3P5d4
Both of these guys had tremendously long careers by MLB standards and both were some of the best of their respective eras. Sure, both of these guys were taller than Lincecum, but then again- 98% of MLB pitchers are taller than Lincecum.
I think pitching stride length should come natural to a pitcher. I do know that it can be dangerous to alter a pitchers stride too much too quickly as it disrupts the timing sequence of the body.
I have issues with a long stride equating to low ERA's and long careers. Two of my favorite pitchers of all time are Randy Johnson and Walter Johnson. They both had long careers, threw very hard and were successful pitchers. But their strides were anything but long. In fact, they had some of the shortest strides to height ratio out there. Randy Johnson here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbaKWvLFKjc
and Walter Johnson here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnSasG3P5d4
Both of these guys had tremendously long careers by MLB standards and both were some of the best of their respective eras. Sure, both of these guys were taller than Lincecum, but then again- 98% of MLB pitchers are taller than Lincecum.
I think pitching stride length should come natural to a pitcher. I do know that it can be dangerous to alter a pitchers stride too much too quickly as it disrupts the timing sequence of the body.
Lincecum was blessed with a body that could perform those mechanics well.
Whether the skill to develop and utilize those mechanics was innate or learned is certainly debatable.
I would guess that it was a combination of both.
Whether the skill to develop and utilize those mechanics was innate or learned is certainly debatable.
I would guess that it was a combination of both.
Tim L. is the current poster child for perfect mechanics which some will turn into a small cottage industry.
The last flavor of the month was Mark Prior whom Tom House leveraged saying he had lab tested perfect mechanics. I'm not saying he doesn't have everything everyone says he has -he is amazing to watch- but caveat emptor might not be a bad piece of advice too.
The last flavor of the month was Mark Prior whom Tom House leveraged saying he had lab tested perfect mechanics. I'm not saying he doesn't have everything everyone says he has -he is amazing to watch- but caveat emptor might not be a bad piece of advice too.
I suspected this would generate a few posts.<s>
Somax seems to emphasize golf + swimming video analysis, but their website also presents an analysis of Barry Zito.
Somax seems to emphasize golf + swimming video analysis, but their website also presents an analysis of Barry Zito.
technique > fast twitch muscles
They're both important. Lincecum's technique allows him to fully utilize the fast twitch muscles. The same things won't work for everyone but there are facets of his motion that will help others reach their genetic potential.
There's also some risk in his motion with the very late external rotation perhaps lessened somewhat by his flexibility. Risk/reward.
There's also some risk in his motion with the very late external rotation perhaps lessened somewhat by his flexibility. Risk/reward.
CADad
The only thing important in regards to High-speed velocity is the muscle distribution percentages tenet! Oh, and not attaining injury or laxity from faulty mechanics!
His mechanics allow him to attain a vertical humeral vector having him drive the ball closer to the field driveline, highly desirable!
He has no advantage in which to use more or less of his genetic muscle percentages with his mechanics. Unless of course your mechanic eliminates a kinetically linked muscle group like the triceps as in the traditional pitching motion.
By the way Lincecum voluntarily inwardly rotates his humerus from further back than traditional pitchers making his mechanic not traditional and closer to where it should be using his Lats as the primary mover not his peck, where he can also use his triceps.
This is known as mid length humeral/forearm transition, much more healthy than, the Late humeral/forearm transition of traditional pitchers and not as far back as it should be.
Why not? If taught initially, the only difference will come in velocity and motor skill proficiency. I have no trouble teaching many of these mechanics to all kids!
Absolutely! But that long stride only delays the inevitable postural position that everybody has to finally attain in order to actually start forward contractions, to bad all this athletic effort is wasted into (transition) getting there.
He performs one of the most inefficient and injurious bottom half mechanic in the MLB while getting very close to the correct top half mechanics, he just needs to get the ball up supinated at the back to protect his UCL better than just protecting it with his array of pronated pitches that use the muscles that overlay and pull the ulna towards the humerus instead of away like the supinated ones.
External rotation of what? and at what time? And what is at risk?
quote:“They're both important”
The only thing important in regards to High-speed velocity is the muscle distribution percentages tenet! Oh, and not attaining injury or laxity from faulty mechanics!
quote:“Lincecum's technique allows him to fully utilize the fast twitch muscles”
His mechanics allow him to attain a vertical humeral vector having him drive the ball closer to the field driveline, highly desirable!
He has no advantage in which to use more or less of his genetic muscle percentages with his mechanics. Unless of course your mechanic eliminates a kinetically linked muscle group like the triceps as in the traditional pitching motion.
By the way Lincecum voluntarily inwardly rotates his humerus from further back than traditional pitchers making his mechanic not traditional and closer to where it should be using his Lats as the primary mover not his peck, where he can also use his triceps.
This is known as mid length humeral/forearm transition, much more healthy than, the Late humeral/forearm transition of traditional pitchers and not as far back as it should be.
quote:“The same things won't work for everyone”
Why not? If taught initially, the only difference will come in velocity and motor skill proficiency. I have no trouble teaching many of these mechanics to all kids!
quote:“but there are facets of his motion that will help others reach their genetic potential”
Absolutely! But that long stride only delays the inevitable postural position that everybody has to finally attain in order to actually start forward contractions, to bad all this athletic effort is wasted into (transition) getting there.
He performs one of the most inefficient and injurious bottom half mechanic in the MLB while getting very close to the correct top half mechanics, he just needs to get the ball up supinated at the back to protect his UCL better than just protecting it with his array of pronated pitches that use the muscles that overlay and pull the ulna towards the humerus instead of away like the supinated ones.
quote:”There's also some risk in his motion with the very late external rotation”
External rotation of what? and at what time? And what is at risk?
Fast twitch muscles also gets credit for the ability to jump high yet I've seen lots of guys with a great verticle who throw like the Prom Queen at their high school...
I guess I am a masochist.
They won't work for everyone because everyone isn't built like Lincecum. There's no reason and no advantage for Randy Johnson to do everything that Lincecum does. He's got a lot more leverage than Lincecum and most likely a lower percentage of fast twitch fibers. He also has to have a relatively simple motion given his size in order to be able to throw strikes. The things that work for Lincecum also won't work for a lot of people who aren't and never will be as flexible as Lincecum.
The late external rotation is external rotation of the shoulder where at initial foot contact, roughly frame 88 the forearm has not yet rotated to horizontal yet. Most hard throwing pitchers other than some slingers, for example Oswalt, tend to be somewhere between horizontal and vertical at initial foot contact with the ones closer to horizontal or below tending to throw faster. That works well for developing velocity but is a bit riskier for the shoulder. Risk/reward.
He develops great momentum going forward and the long stride is a result of that. He does a nice job of bracing up against the stride leg to transfer that momemtum.
They won't work for everyone because everyone isn't built like Lincecum. There's no reason and no advantage for Randy Johnson to do everything that Lincecum does. He's got a lot more leverage than Lincecum and most likely a lower percentage of fast twitch fibers. He also has to have a relatively simple motion given his size in order to be able to throw strikes. The things that work for Lincecum also won't work for a lot of people who aren't and never will be as flexible as Lincecum.
The late external rotation is external rotation of the shoulder where at initial foot contact, roughly frame 88 the forearm has not yet rotated to horizontal yet. Most hard throwing pitchers other than some slingers, for example Oswalt, tend to be somewhere between horizontal and vertical at initial foot contact with the ones closer to horizontal or below tending to throw faster. That works well for developing velocity but is a bit riskier for the shoulder. Risk/reward.
He develops great momentum going forward and the long stride is a result of that. He does a nice job of bracing up against the stride leg to transfer that momemtum.
Trojaan-skipper,
Yes! If these particular muscles have the genetically higher percentages this is absolutely true.
This is just another nail in the coffin on the thought that the legs and core throw the ball and the arm just goes along for the ride!
Every muscle has its muscle type percentages and all are different, making your observation correct.
If the upper half is put together slower, this will be your result.
.
quote:“Fast twitch muscles also gets credit for the ability to jump high”
Yes! If these particular muscles have the genetically higher percentages this is absolutely true.
quote:“ I've seen lots of guys with a great vertical who throw like the Prom Queen at their high school...”
This is just another nail in the coffin on the thought that the legs and core throw the ball and the arm just goes along for the ride!
Every muscle has its muscle type percentages and all are different, making your observation correct.
If the upper half is put together slower, this will be your result.
.
Sounds reasonable to me. All I know is some kids can jump way better than their peers;and some kids can throw a ball much harder than their peers...
.
And some docks float way better than their piers!
.
And some docks float way better than their piers!
.
quote:Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Fast twitch muscles also gets credit for the ability to jump high yet I've seen lots of guys with a great verticle who throw like the Prom Queen at their high school...
I hear ya there. there are some great leapers I have seen who just can't pitch with any velocity at all.
CADad,
I was only asking you to be a mechanichist for a moment. Besides you are better than this, I just know it! If not please don't escalate to that pins in the eyes approach?
How is that? I’ve heard everybody is built the same but just different lengths and thicknesses. I wouldn’t ask any high jumper to not perform the Fosbury flop just because they were shaped different.
I can see many reasons why it would have been better for him!
Just not that longer stride.
Remember when Tom House asked (not understanding the added motor difficulty and increased stressful rotations against a static foot) Johnson to stride farther? Then, Johnson ripped the meniscus and ligaments in his knee apart and had to leave that year out. Oh, wait a minute people here think he never injured himself like Noley never was injured, yet both of them spent considerable time on the DL injured every year and Ryan’s career ended with a finishing injury and he was still throwing with velocity.
Can you imagine Johnson MM built Wo?!!
I see many non-injurious aspects to Tim’s approach that would have and will give great advantage to anybody.
If Johnson had stayed tall and rotated his ball drive more towards center mass axis from as far back as he could have attained, plus be fast twitch as he is, he would still be healthy and still in the low 100’s.
Being longer boned gives him more leverage to overcome with the payload being where it is!
It is also likely that he has more fast twitch fibers to overcome his length problems?
The fastest ever was 5’7” tall; I don’t think many MLB personnel realize this by pushing height and girth as the cause of velocity, durability and other myths that they would like you to anecdotally believe.
Most MLB pitchers look more like Johnson than Lincecum, This must be why they also have simple motions?
I don’t think if taught, anybody would have trouble moving the way Lincecum moves.
Somebody with a higher fast twitch percentage than Lincecum will throw faster with Lincecums approach even if not performed as well!
This sounds like the guesswork that is used when discussing other strange mechanics!!
Go, figure?
This is confusing because of the kinesiological movement I believe you are referring to is “outwards rotation of the humerus within the shoulder joint” there are separate movements with similar names when discussing the scapula (shoulder girdle) but I think I understand what you may be talking about. I hope? Maybe you are talking about both scapular rotation and humeral rotation? Tim does improperly scapular load at this point also separating his humeral alignment with his shoulders the way ASMI the NPA and Set pro like it, assuring more business for surgeons? Tim may escape the injurious aspects of this because of his humeral vector while driving the ball
I understand, this means his Humerus is inwardly rotated at this timeline and just starting its outwards rotational transition getting ready to outwardly rotate all the way before he can actually start forwards ball force. This is the time all forwards mass has stopped for 52 frames.
Can you imagine if at this time-line his humerus is already fully outwardly rotated and forearm supinated and horizontally back! What an advantage. This is what we strive to achieve even with our acquiesced forced leg lift that makes it more difficult and easily achievable with Dr.Marshalls full Top and bottom recommended mechanic.
I don’t see this when I look at MLB mechanics! In the past most have had their forearms below the elbow at foot plant casing “Late transition” and traditional forearm flyout but in the last 5 years I have seen a great improvement in this arrival to the correct horizontal and straight back. Now if these same guys can get their forearms supinated (thumb up instead of down) at this timeline they will have outwardly rotated their humerus 90 degrees already making it easier to get the next 90 degrees of early outwards rotation of the humerus at the back allowing them to get as much length as possible when starting the ball forwards.
I believe you are correct here but have no way to quantify it other than length theory and if you do not start forwards force from back there you basically “grab” like all the rest during transition anyways causing loop like Prior where your actual forwards ball movement starts with shorter and inefficient (Houses fast arm false theory) loop instead of from length.
We believe Humeral/shoulder miss alignment causes all shoulder injuries whether they are at the start or finish. No risk/reward necessary. No need to take your Humerus out of alignment with your shoulders at any time.
Notice how Tim gets his humerus back in alignment correctly with his shoulders when he starts to contract forwards ball force at 130.
No velocity is being performed at this time (beginning of Humeral/forearm transition) line and just after, how could this action have any velocity development component? No velocity can start until the humerus is fully outwardly rotated with any mechanic whether Linear or centripetal.
No contractions count for velocity until the ball is actually making forwards progress at 130. All contractions before this are used to get your arm into position (fully outwardly rotated Humerus).
You have recognized that at foot plant his forearm is still down and the humerus is still inwardly rotated and you can not inwardly rotate it to throw if it is already inwardly rotated but you do not recognize the amount of (52 frames) time from this point forwards to the time he starts his actual initial forwards ball force at 130, that this 52 frames is taken up in his transition to attain outwards rotation at full length and during this stop in momentum long before and disrupted by the stop the momentum has been lost?
Where does he store this momentum up that is then transferred for 52 frames of humeral transition?
His body and ball side leg mass is still behind his firm plant leg and there is no more forwards movement from the lunge. Conservation of early inertia has been eliminated, then restarted.
This is a grade 1 disconnection in the Kinetic chain tenet!
No need to put on the black leathers and cuffs OK? & Don't go there GW4S
trojan –skipper,
These “some kids” are also baseball players? These peers are also Jumpers?
Are this set of “some kids” Jumpers or just ball playing peers?
Are “their peers” here ball players that throw hard that can’t jump?
Gingerbreadman,
Have you ever seen a leaper whom also possesses arm velocity?
quote:“I guess I am a masochist”
I was only asking you to be a mechanichist for a moment. Besides you are better than this, I just know it! If not please don't escalate to that pins in the eyes approach?
quote:“They won't work for everyone because everyone isn't built like Lincecum”
How is that? I’ve heard everybody is built the same but just different lengths and thicknesses. I wouldn’t ask any high jumper to not perform the Fosbury flop just because they were shaped different.
quote:“There's no reason”
I can see many reasons why it would have been better for him!
Just not that longer stride.
Remember when Tom House asked (not understanding the added motor difficulty and increased stressful rotations against a static foot) Johnson to stride farther? Then, Johnson ripped the meniscus and ligaments in his knee apart and had to leave that year out. Oh, wait a minute people here think he never injured himself like Noley never was injured, yet both of them spent considerable time on the DL injured every year and Ryan’s career ended with a finishing injury and he was still throwing with velocity.
Can you imagine Johnson MM built Wo?!!
quote:“no advantage for Randy Johnson to do everything that Lincecum does”
I see many non-injurious aspects to Tim’s approach that would have and will give great advantage to anybody.
If Johnson had stayed tall and rotated his ball drive more towards center mass axis from as far back as he could have attained, plus be fast twitch as he is, he would still be healthy and still in the low 100’s.
quote:“He's got a lot more leverage than Lincecum”
Being longer boned gives him more leverage to overcome with the payload being where it is!
quote:“most likely a lower percentage of fast twitch fibers”
It is also likely that he has more fast twitch fibers to overcome his length problems?
The fastest ever was 5’7” tall; I don’t think many MLB personnel realize this by pushing height and girth as the cause of velocity, durability and other myths that they would like you to anecdotally believe.
quote:“He also has to have a relatively simple motion given his size in order to be able to throw strikes”
Most MLB pitchers look more like Johnson than Lincecum, This must be why they also have simple motions?
quote:“The things that work for Lincecum also won't work for a lot of people who aren't and never will be as flexible as Lincecum”
I don’t think if taught, anybody would have trouble moving the way Lincecum moves.
Somebody with a higher fast twitch percentage than Lincecum will throw faster with Lincecums approach even if not performed as well!
This sounds like the guesswork that is used when discussing other strange mechanics!!
Go, figure?
quote:”The late external rotation is external rotation of the shoulder”
This is confusing because of the kinesiological movement I believe you are referring to is “outwards rotation of the humerus within the shoulder joint” there are separate movements with similar names when discussing the scapula (shoulder girdle) but I think I understand what you may be talking about. I hope? Maybe you are talking about both scapular rotation and humeral rotation? Tim does improperly scapular load at this point also separating his humeral alignment with his shoulders the way ASMI the NPA and Set pro like it, assuring more business for surgeons? Tim may escape the injurious aspects of this because of his humeral vector while driving the ball
quote:“where at initial foot contact, roughly frame 88 the forearm has not yet rotated to horizontal yet.”
I understand, this means his Humerus is inwardly rotated at this timeline and just starting its outwards rotational transition getting ready to outwardly rotate all the way before he can actually start forwards ball force. This is the time all forwards mass has stopped for 52 frames.
Can you imagine if at this time-line his humerus is already fully outwardly rotated and forearm supinated and horizontally back! What an advantage. This is what we strive to achieve even with our acquiesced forced leg lift that makes it more difficult and easily achievable with Dr.Marshalls full Top and bottom recommended mechanic.
quote:“Most hard throwing pitchers other than some slingers, for example Oswalt, tend to be somewhere between horizontal and vertical at initial foot contact”
I don’t see this when I look at MLB mechanics! In the past most have had their forearms below the elbow at foot plant casing “Late transition” and traditional forearm flyout but in the last 5 years I have seen a great improvement in this arrival to the correct horizontal and straight back. Now if these same guys can get their forearms supinated (thumb up instead of down) at this timeline they will have outwardly rotated their humerus 90 degrees already making it easier to get the next 90 degrees of early outwards rotation of the humerus at the back allowing them to get as much length as possible when starting the ball forwards.
quote:“with the ones closer to horizontal or below tending to throw faster”
I believe you are correct here but have no way to quantify it other than length theory and if you do not start forwards force from back there you basically “grab” like all the rest during transition anyways causing loop like Prior where your actual forwards ball movement starts with shorter and inefficient (Houses fast arm false theory) loop instead of from length.
quote:“That works well for developing velocity but is a bit riskier for the shoulder”
We believe Humeral/shoulder miss alignment causes all shoulder injuries whether they are at the start or finish. No risk/reward necessary. No need to take your Humerus out of alignment with your shoulders at any time.
Notice how Tim gets his humerus back in alignment correctly with his shoulders when he starts to contract forwards ball force at 130.
No velocity is being performed at this time (beginning of Humeral/forearm transition) line and just after, how could this action have any velocity development component? No velocity can start until the humerus is fully outwardly rotated with any mechanic whether Linear or centripetal.
No contractions count for velocity until the ball is actually making forwards progress at 130. All contractions before this are used to get your arm into position (fully outwardly rotated Humerus).
quote:”He develops great momentum going forward and the long stride is a result of that”
You have recognized that at foot plant his forearm is still down and the humerus is still inwardly rotated and you can not inwardly rotate it to throw if it is already inwardly rotated but you do not recognize the amount of (52 frames) time from this point forwards to the time he starts his actual initial forwards ball force at 130, that this 52 frames is taken up in his transition to attain outwards rotation at full length and during this stop in momentum long before and disrupted by the stop the momentum has been lost?
quote:“He does a nice job of bracing up against the stride leg to transfer that momemtum”
Where does he store this momentum up that is then transferred for 52 frames of humeral transition?
His body and ball side leg mass is still behind his firm plant leg and there is no more forwards movement from the lunge. Conservation of early inertia has been eliminated, then restarted.
This is a grade 1 disconnection in the Kinetic chain tenet!
No need to put on the black leathers and cuffs OK? & Don't go there GW4S
trojan –skipper,
quote:“All I know is some kids can jump way better than their peers”
These “some kids” are also baseball players? These peers are also Jumpers?
quote:“some kids can throw a ball much harder than their peers”
Are this set of “some kids” Jumpers or just ball playing peers?
Are “their peers” here ball players that throw hard that can’t jump?
Gingerbreadman,
quote:“I hear ya there”
Have you ever seen a leaper whom also possesses arm velocity?
.
.
- "Have you ever seen a leaper whom also possesses arm velocity?"
.
I had to wonder in the part where they said lincecum could get more velocity if he let his forearm be bent back further from his upper arm, whether maybe this is why he never ices his arm.
The ideas behind the range of motion being important seem ok.......like the badly stated idea that it is easier to accelerate something over a longer distance than over a shorter distance. But it also seems true that muscles and connective tissue are strongest in the middle portion of their range of motion. If you aren't careful, attempting to extend all of your ranges of motion could wind up causing some strains, it seems.
My other reaction to the striding examples is that this doesn't fit with the Leo Mazzone book I read about tall and fall.
The ideas behind the range of motion being important seem ok.......like the badly stated idea that it is easier to accelerate something over a longer distance than over a shorter distance. But it also seems true that muscles and connective tissue are strongest in the middle portion of their range of motion. If you aren't careful, attempting to extend all of your ranges of motion could wind up causing some strains, it seems.
My other reaction to the striding examples is that this doesn't fit with the Leo Mazzone book I read about tall and fall.
One wonders how fast Lincecum would throw if he had a so called "Normal" delivery and I would think he would not throw hard enough to have even be in the majors in fact if he had not been taught his delivery you, me or even they would have never heard of this kid from Washington.
quote:Originally posted by Pedropere:
I had to wonder in the part where they said lincecum could get more velocity if he let his forearm be bent back further from his upper arm, whether maybe this is why he never ices his arm.
If you go back and watch the video his arm actually is back- at least 90 degrees in relation to his torso. They were looking at in relation to the ground. I think most of the information they gave on that video is pretty bad- just didn't do a very good job at it. They say that Lincecum only has 60 degrees of external rotation. What the **** are they smoking? If you watch the video you can clearly see he has at least 90 degrees of rotation in relation to his torso. They draw a line from his forearm intersected with a line down through his torso, but the line through his torso isn't even close to following the axis of his body.
It looks to be about 180 degrees of external rotation (90 from vertical). He delays the arm so much that it doesn't look like there's time for there to be any more rotation.
One thing, he sure didn't have any velocity last night. He topped out at 91 and didn't hit 90 after the middle of the third inning. Probably something wrong for his velocity to be down that much.
One thing, he sure didn't have any velocity last night. He topped out at 91 and didn't hit 90 after the middle of the third inning. Probably something wrong for his velocity to be down that much.
Just my view, but this seems like an awful lot of effort and analysis for a pitcher who has not been 97 since his Rookie year.
As CADad noted, he was below 90 most of last night and that effort included one curve ball that went straight up and down.
In his last start against the Mets, he was mostly 91-92 and very occasionally, early in the game, 93.
I try and watch him every game at AT&T or on TV.
When he is dominating, he is usually 91-92 but his change is 79-80 and his curve ball in the 82-84 range.
Lincecum is having more and more starts like last night where he is out in the 5h inning, the velocity is as CADad describes and his command of every pitch, but especially his fastball is lacking.
As CADad noted, he was below 90 most of last night and that effort included one curve ball that went straight up and down.
In his last start against the Mets, he was mostly 91-92 and very occasionally, early in the game, 93.
I try and watch him every game at AT&T or on TV.
When he is dominating, he is usually 91-92 but his change is 79-80 and his curve ball in the 82-84 range.
Lincecum is having more and more starts like last night where he is out in the 5h inning, the velocity is as CADad describes and his command of every pitch, but especially his fastball is lacking.
I agree with infielddad and CADad, he's not the same pitcher he was when he first began. Most of the experts said he would end up sustaining some type of injury with his delivery, just a matter of time, will be interesting to watch and see what is really going on, most pitchers that lose that much velocity have underlying issues.
According to fangraphs his average fastball velocity in 2007 was 94.2 mph, 2008 was 94.1 mph, 2009 was 92.4 mph and not including last nights game so far in 2010 was 91.5 mph. He'd actually had a few games in the 92-93 average velocity range prior to this game with one about 5 games back where he averaged 90 mph. Maybe his body isn't holding up. My speculation is back problems.
Last night v. Dodgers, very few pitches over 89 MPH...
In addition to the comments of dimmishing velocity, can't overlook the fact that two pitches (an actual pitch and a warm up pitch) slipped out of his hand in his delivery and never made it to the plate. In construction, when guys start dropping tools involuntarily (ie. involuntarily lose grip), what follows is tendonitis!
Looks like the boy is in trouble...
Looks like the boy is in trouble...
Laxity is a beast?
If we had his hand speed at release it would then tell us something.
Measuring ball speed long after release tells you little.
Mr.Lincecum has radicalized and produced 2 great new pitches powerfully pronated!
This imparts forwards axis presentation automatically slowing the ball down and putting him in a side of the ball release most of the time. This also puts his fastball with more emphasis on movement. The older these guys get the smarter they become! Maddux was capable of mid nines velocity whenever he wanted. Don’t be surprised when it gets down to crunch time and Tim has now learned then applied these new pitches thoroughly that he does not flame a few guys.
If we had his hand speed at release it would then tell us something.
Measuring ball speed long after release tells you little.
Mr.Lincecum has radicalized and produced 2 great new pitches powerfully pronated!
This imparts forwards axis presentation automatically slowing the ball down and putting him in a side of the ball release most of the time. This also puts his fastball with more emphasis on movement. The older these guys get the smarter they become! Maddux was capable of mid nines velocity whenever he wanted. Don’t be surprised when it gets down to crunch time and Tim has now learned then applied these new pitches thoroughly that he does not flame a few guys.
I don't necessarily think Lincecum is having any issues. Many guys come into the league with something to prove with their velocity and then slow down a few mph for better control and more movement. Maddux is one of those types.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Laxity is a beast?
If we had his hand speed at release it would then tell us something.
Measuring ball speed long after release tells you little.
Mr.Lincecum has radicalized and produced 2 great new pitches powerfully pronated!
This imparts forwards axis presentation automatically slowing the ball down and putting him in a side of the ball release most of the time. This also puts his fastball with more emphasis on movement. The older these guys get the smarter they become! Maddux was capable of mid nines velocity whenever he wanted. Don’t be surprised when it gets down to crunch time and Tim has now learned then applied these new pitches thoroughly that he does not flame a few guys.
Absolutely most pitchers use their experience and cut down on their velocity. Mostly due to aging, when they can't hold that velocity anymore. He is still young, I don't think he's at that point in time to do that yet.
I do hope that you are right, no one wants to see a pitcher get hurt, seriously.
IMO, he's been worked like a horse and that isn't so good either. Though his stats (w/l, ERA) are outstanding, his work load (less innings) isn't what it was 2-3 years ago. He seems to be only remaining there to get in 5 and then he's done. That's not the plan for most successful major league starters, it's to stay in as long as you can.
For young ML pitchers, the biggest indicator that something may be wrong, is loss of velocity.
Now it just may be something inexplainable, a few years ago, Verlanders velocity dropped and they couldn't figure out what was the cause, time off of the mound helped.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel - LHP:
Looks like the boy is in trouble...
A pretty premature prognosis from Palmdale.
To my way of thinking, the issue with Lincecum is not the decrease in velocity. Since his rookie year and the 97mph on the gun, he has developed the change up and also developed a 2 seam fastball.
The Giants actually worked with him on pitching to contact to lower his pitch counts.
Last Summer at AT&T, we watched him cruise at 91-92mph, with the 84mph curve and 79 mph change and he blew away the D'backs. Will never forget Conor Jackson's 3 K's, and the absolute look of disgust and bewilderment on the last K.
His change is devastating when he commands it with the fastball at 91mph, because of his motion and how hard it is to see the ball
Last Friday night, he had complete command of every pitch, went 9 innings(not a high pitch count), totally dominated the Mets, and mostly was 90-92 with no significant velocity decrease. The guy who dominated last Friday was not showing any evidence of any type of injury.
To me, the current issue with Lincecum is command. It is also his inconsistency from one start to the next.
The Giants actually worked with him on pitching to contact to lower his pitch counts.
Last Summer at AT&T, we watched him cruise at 91-92mph, with the 84mph curve and 79 mph change and he blew away the D'backs. Will never forget Conor Jackson's 3 K's, and the absolute look of disgust and bewilderment on the last K.
His change is devastating when he commands it with the fastball at 91mph, because of his motion and how hard it is to see the ball
Last Friday night, he had complete command of every pitch, went 9 innings(not a high pitch count), totally dominated the Mets, and mostly was 90-92 with no significant velocity decrease. The guy who dominated last Friday was not showing any evidence of any type of injury.
To me, the current issue with Lincecum is command. It is also his inconsistency from one start to the next.
I guess that you had to see the game. Trouble with command was obviously frustrating him. More than once, I was able to read his lips saying to himself, "C'mon". If his reduced velocity was intentional, there would have to be motivation to do so (ie. success). None was evident. The slumping Dodgers had a field day. Lincecum was constantly behind in the count, so he definitely had control problems. 75 pitches in 4.1 innings.
Setting the control problem aside for a moment, what about when he threw strikes. This is no exaggeration - one single swing and miss (on a great curveball) which means LA put the bat on the ball nearly every time they swung at a pitch.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=720
Setting the control problem aside for a moment, what about when he threw strikes. This is no exaggeration - one single swing and miss (on a great curveball) which means LA put the bat on the ball nearly every time they swung at a pitch.
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...lb_1%2F&prevDate=720
quote:Originally posted by Daniel - LHP:
I guess that you had to see the game.
My point being that any prognosis based on a game is unwise at best and most likely premature.
You're right. One cannot draw a conclusion or reach a prognosis on a sample of one game.
The reduced velocity could very well have been a conscious choice to improve his control (I don't really buy that). One single swinging strike could have been the result of his intentional reduction in velocity (not really buying that either) or his intention to pitch to contact because he was fighting his control (not really buying that either). The two tosses that didn't reach home plate could have simply been errant split finger pitches (this is a likely possibility).
I have to wonder how many games in history (at any level) had a pitcher who tossed (not one but) two pitches in a game that never reached home plate?
I have to wonder how many games in history (at any level) had a pitcher who threw 75 pitches that resulted in one single swing and miss?
The reduced velocity could very well have been a conscious choice to improve his control (I don't really buy that). One single swinging strike could have been the result of his intentional reduction in velocity (not really buying that either) or his intention to pitch to contact because he was fighting his control (not really buying that either). The two tosses that didn't reach home plate could have simply been errant split finger pitches (this is a likely possibility).
I have to wonder how many games in history (at any level) had a pitcher who tossed (not one but) two pitches in a game that never reached home plate?
I have to wonder how many games in history (at any level) had a pitcher who threw 75 pitches that resulted in one single swing and miss?
quote:Originally posted by Daniel - LHP:
You're right. One cannot draw a conclusion or reach a prognosis on a sample of one game.
And yet you continue to do so.
I guess it takes the years of experience and vast expertise one only achieves as a junior in high school to be able to predict a pitcher's future after watching one game. I bow to your obvious superior skill.