Good idea? Kind of goes against the baseball declining argument in some ways.
http://www.cleveland.com/recre...dding_new_age_d.html
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Maybe someone was listening when I suggested this six years ago. Or maybe great minds think alike. There are a lot of thirteen year olds who would get another year of baseball with this rule. It might keep some small, late bloomer thirteen year olds in the game until they improve enough to play on a bigger field. The bigger and better players should move on to bigger fields.
I believe this is the beginning of LL moving to the same rules as Ripken and travel for all-stars. Keener isn't stupid. Like any CEO he's going to tell you what he wants you to hear. But he knows LL's US boy's baseball marketshare is down.
Granted, moving back fences could be a major issue at a lot of LL fields. There isn't room at two of the three LL fields where my son played. But doing nothing would be a slow death.
I believe this is the beginning of LL moving to the same rules as Ripken and travel for all-stars. Keener isn't stupid. Like any CEO he's going to tell you what he wants you to hear. But he knows LL's US boy's baseball marketshare is down.
Granted, moving back fences could be a major issue at a lot of LL fields. There isn't room at two of the three LL fields where my son played. But doing nothing would be a slow death.
Yeah, RJM, that's the only problem I see with it- fields.
It is a good move, it was pretty funny watching the kids early in the season get used to the transition of a 60 foot to 90 foot base paths, as well as, the pitching mounds.
The issue will be finding the fields which can support the base path sizes in the little league towns. If they can get on the softball fields, they may have a chance.
The issue will be finding the fields which can support the base path sizes in the little league towns. If they can get on the softball fields, they may have a chance.
This sounds great... until you think about it for 5 minutes.
Even though it's not LL, our town has Pony League that plays 54/80 which serves as a transition between LL-sized fields and HS-sized fields.
I guess LL is saying that most towns don't have this transition?
I guess LL is saying that most towns don't have this transition?
It's a start. Remembering back 30+ years, as a 12 year old, can remember the jump from 46-60 to 60-90 & open bases. There's no way one can sugarcoat it... it was horrible baseball. Fortunately we moved when my oldest was 10, & he was able to play 50-70 for a year & 54-80 for 2 1/2 years. Youngest started playing 50-70 at 9 & 54-80 at 12. What a difference!
When I turned thirteen we moved on to Babe Ruth ball (ages 13-15). There wasn't a minumum play rule. There were fifteen on a roster. Most thirteen year olds rode the pine for a season. Most couldn't compete with fifteen years olds. A few of us were fortunate to be big for thirteen.quote:Originally posted by journey2:
It's a start. Remembering back 30+ years, as a 12 year old, can remember the jump from 46-60 to 60-90 & open bases. There's no way one can sugarcoat it... it was horrible baseball. Fortunately we moved when my oldest was 10, & he was able to play 50-70 for a year & 54-80 for 2 1/2 years. Youngest started playing 50-70 at 9 & 54-80 at 12. What a difference!
There isn't any 54/80 ball in our area. There are also a lot of thirteen year olds who are undersized and would be better served playing 50/70. LL isn't about developing high school players. LL is about keeping kids in the game. I believe this may keep a lot of thirteen year olds in the game at least one more year.quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Even though it's not LL, our town has Pony League that plays 54/80 which serves as a transition between LL-sized fields and HS-sized fields.
I guess LL is saying that most towns don't have this transition?
I think this is great.
First of all, between the high tech bats and the growing sophistication of players, I simply don't think the 46/60 field is safe for 12's to play on. The fact that studs are out there whizzing liners past kids who are not so studly makes it even worse.
Secondly, with the move of the aging date from August 1 to May 1 a few years back, we see more and more kids turning 13 during what LL calls their 12u year. Seems like half the kids you see on TV in Williamsport come August have turned 13 by then. There's a serious problem with putting kids well into puberty on the kiddie field.
Basically this will improve the game for LL. I think it would've been even better if they'd done it for 11-12, and not for 12-13, but this is at least a step in the right direction.
I suspect this is tacit admission that the Ripken/Babe Ruth people were right in making this move a few years ago, and they've been wrong to hold out.
I wonder what they will do with their showcase fields in Williamsport, though. This will take quite a bit of earthwork to put into practice, unless Williamsport becomes an 11u event.
First of all, between the high tech bats and the growing sophistication of players, I simply don't think the 46/60 field is safe for 12's to play on. The fact that studs are out there whizzing liners past kids who are not so studly makes it even worse.
Secondly, with the move of the aging date from August 1 to May 1 a few years back, we see more and more kids turning 13 during what LL calls their 12u year. Seems like half the kids you see on TV in Williamsport come August have turned 13 by then. There's a serious problem with putting kids well into puberty on the kiddie field.
Basically this will improve the game for LL. I think it would've been even better if they'd done it for 11-12, and not for 12-13, but this is at least a step in the right direction.
I suspect this is tacit admission that the Ripken/Babe Ruth people were right in making this move a few years ago, and they've been wrong to hold out.
I wonder what they will do with their showcase fields in Williamsport, though. This will take quite a bit of earthwork to put into practice, unless Williamsport becomes an 11u event.
Certainly this is a good move to keep Little League alive because "smarter" organizations trumped their system twenty years ago in many areas. Jumping from 40' to 60'6" pitching distance and from 60' base paths to 90", at 13, is crazy. Pony and Dixie Youth Leagues have promoted two year age groupings and field size increases to meet the needs of growing youth players. Shetland-Pinto-Mustang-Bronco-Colt league structures have virtually put Little League out of business here.
Dixie League started doing this a few years back. To combat the field problem they made it optional. Each league can decide if they want their 11/12 to play in the majors 46/60 or ozone 50/70 with open bases. Our league went to ozone and didn't have a problem converting the fields. We just had to increase the size of the infield a little and put down anchors at 70'. The biggest difference for our fields was that we had always had dirt mounds and we had to get rid of those and start using portable ones.
When we first made the switch only a few leagues were in ozone. A few years later and I believe a majority of leagues have made the switch.
When we first made the switch only a few leagues were in ozone. A few years later and I believe a majority of leagues have made the switch.
This is just a trial. But I expect it to stick.quote:I wonder what they will do with their showcase fields in Williamsport, though. This will take quite a bit of earthwork to put into practice, unless Williamsport becomes an 11u event.
In terms of the Williamsport fields the fences at Lamade can be moved back as far as they are willing to excavate into the hill. To move the fences back at Volunteer Stadium would probably involve some reworking of the access road to Lamade and the concession area. I say this without having seen what work was done to accomodate the fences being moved back to 225 a couple of years ago.
The bigger issue is local fields. Two of the three fields for the LL where my son played don't have any room to be enlarged.
Most of the Pony fields in the area here have the ability to change field positions based upon the kids playing.
10U used 60ft paths.
12U used 70ft paths
14u used 80ft paths
18u used 90ft paths.
Most fields were set up for the mustang and bronco (10u and 12u) while the rest (probably 1/3 of the fields) could handle the 80ft and up setups. Mounts were the hardest to deal with. Some places had portable mounts while others had the kids pitching off the flat. The worst part of that of course was getting a kid used to pitching from the flat one week and then pitching off a mound another.
10U used 60ft paths.
12U used 70ft paths
14u used 80ft paths
18u used 90ft paths.
Most fields were set up for the mustang and bronco (10u and 12u) while the rest (probably 1/3 of the fields) could handle the 80ft and up setups. Mounts were the hardest to deal with. Some places had portable mounts while others had the kids pitching off the flat. The worst part of that of course was getting a kid used to pitching from the flat one week and then pitching off a mound another.
It's about time. Then next step should be to make this division the major division and the flagship division that plays the LLWS at Willy and bump down the 11-12 yr old 40/60 division to minors. Or call it 40/60 majors like Ripken does but televise the 50/70 division.
Ripken offers local programs the option of operating as 46/60 or 50/70 and plays all-stars at 50/70. I would guess LL will do the same once this gets past the pilor stage. It could take years for local programs to alter their fields. Space to expand will be an issue for many.quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
It's about time. Then next step should be to make this division the major division and the flagship division that plays the LLWS at Willy and bump down the 11-12 yr old 40/60 division to minors. Or call it 40/60 majors like Ripken does but televise the 50/70 division.
Being a pilot program, I don't see it taking off with a bunch of affiliated Little Leagues(tm) & doubt it has any effect on what distance is played at Williamsport for many years to come.
When the press release comes out that all the regionals will be played with 225' or deeper fences & Williamsport goes 50-70 & moves thier fences back some more... I'll be happy to eat crow
When the press release comes out that all the regionals will be played with 225' or deeper fences & Williamsport goes 50-70 & moves thier fences back some more... I'll be happy to eat crow
quote:The bigger issue is local fields. Two of the three fields for the LL where my son played don't have any room to be enlarged.
This was once a fear of mine, but it seems to have turned out not to be anything to worry about.
What ends up happening is that the falling numbers in the Junior, Senior and Big League divisions opens up the 60/90 fields for greater use by younger players. Use skin infields, portable mounds, and different sets of base anchors, and it's all taken care of.
Our LL has converted its Senior field to a portable mound setup already.
In our area Juniors programs are often played on middle school and high school fields. Those won't be altered. But since one of the three fields is going to have home plate moved back to make the outfield fence 225 there is room for 50/70 on that one field. 225 is deep enough for a 50/70 infield. Although 250 to center would be more like a real, scaled down field.
You probably will only see pilots done where skin fields are available. I doubt a league would dig up an infield for a pilot.
You probably will only see pilots done where skin fields are available. I doubt a league would dig up an infield for a pilot.
Ripken baseball offers two allstar tournament trails for 12 yr olds--one for 46/60 and another for 50/70. Both have districts, regionals, world series. As mentioned, the 50/70 WS is played at Aberdeen (CR's equivalent of W'port).
During CR rec season, we're 50/70. For allstars, our A team competes in 50/70 and our B team in 46/60. It's a good set-up--a greater no. of players are competing for something.
Am I reading this right? Are LL league-age 13 yr olds going to be using big-barrel bat vs. pitchers who are only 50 ft. away from the batter? I must be mis-reading LL's plans.
During CR rec season, we're 50/70. For allstars, our A team competes in 50/70 and our B team in 46/60. It's a good set-up--a greater no. of players are competing for something.
Am I reading this right? Are LL league-age 13 yr olds going to be using big-barrel bat vs. pitchers who are only 50 ft. away from the batter? I must be mis-reading LL's plans.
In our area many complexs have dual purpose 46-60 (9-10 y/o) & 50-70 (11-12 y/o) fields. Some even have moveable temporary outfield fences. Most do not have skinned infields, but are full grass infields with have real dirt mounds. The key to having such dual purpose fields is having enough room to move the plate back. Often at 50-70, we noted 25' behind the plate to the backstop. By cutting the baselines wider, it makes it easy to "scrunch" the infield in when the plate is moved up & 46-60 is being played. A side note... with a longer distance to the backstop, a mgr either begins to develop a stud catcher or two at these early ages or suffers the consequences.
Freddy, reading the press release, don't see anything about LL(tm) allowing BIG barrel bats in this pilot program.
If by 12-13 division they mean the 12U that plays in Williamsport each year, their will be no need to move the fences back. They did that a few years ago.
They would just need to cut out the infield deeper into the outfield grass The fences will still be 225' from homeplate.
LL had to do this sooner or later. It's called "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
They would just need to cut out the infield deeper into the outfield grass The fences will still be 225' from homeplate.
LL had to do this sooner or later. It's called "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
225 around the outfield is adequate. But it would be better if center was about 250-260 like Ripken. It would create gaps for more hits to fall in.quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
If by 12-13 division they mean the 12U that plays in Williamsport each year, their will be no need to move the fences back. They did that a few years ago.
They would just need to cut out the infield deeper into the outfield grass The fences will still be 225' from homeplate.
LL had to do this sooner or later. It's called "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
quote:Originally posted by journey2:
Freddy, reading the press release, don't see anything about LL(tm) allowing BIG barrel bats in this pilot program.
Journey,
By "big barrel bats", I meant 2 5/8" bats (vs. the 2 1/4" bats currently required for LL 46/60)
From what I've seen, the hottest bats in baseball are the minus-fives. They don't have any restrictions on barrel performance. Virtually all of them are 2 5/8"--legal in the pilot program.
LL press release--
"Also for the 50-70 Pilot Program – unlike the Little League division ... the bat can have a diameter of 2 5/8 inches, and the on-deck batter is permitted."
I don't see any point to moving the bases back and leaving the fences the same. You're not helping the outfielders. Move them back, or play without them. Otherwise, you'll wind up with teams stacked with HR hitters and future outfielders who can't track a high fly on the big field.
Most, if not all, 50/70 games in our area are played on 200-210 fields now. 225 would be a welcomed change for most fields.
In northeast go to Diamond Nation, Baseball Heaven, Cooperstown and Rehobeth Beach. All 200-205' fields.
In northeast go to Diamond Nation, Baseball Heaven, Cooperstown and Rehobeth Beach. All 200-205' fields.