Little League Pitch Count Option

It's a good step forward.

I don't know why they are making it an option instead of a standard rule.

The biggest problem I see is "Who keeps the pitch count" and the arguments that this situation causes. Some league have barely enough volunteers as it is, so finding another person to take some responsibility per game may be difficult.

According to the web site, this is also an attempt to study the effects, in terms of player health, which they will "leave to the medical professionals." It also looks like the "official scorer" will do it, but many leagues leave the scoring to the "home team."

Based on what I know, I think the counts are still too high and the days rest between starts are still too few.

Kids need to throw more and more often.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Kids need to throw more and more often.

Agree with Linear.

Monitored - but definitely need to build up arm strength appropriately.

IMO.

Doesnt anyone play CATCH anymore?????

There is a huge difference between throwing to play catch and pitching in a game.

I'm not opposed to kids playing catch.

I'm concerned with limiting how much they pitch in games (due to the pressure to always throw 100%).

I thought you were into "reducing injury"?

I AM into reducing injuries.

What makes you think I'm not?

There is a difference between throwing and competitive pitching and between competitive pitching and batting practice pitching.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Based on what I know, I think the counts are still too high and the days rest between starts are still too few.

Oh, I don't know.

Huh?

By that I mean that they should allow fewer pitches per outing and more days per outings.

I know what you mean.

And it's incorrect.

You're not going to build arm strength by not throwing.

My recliner here feels real good. I hope my arm is stengthening.

Let me post here something I posted elsewhere...

When you are talking about young kids (e.g. 11-16), arm strength is IRRELEVANT to whether they will be injured or not.

Actually, that's not entirely correct. In the case of an adolescent, the stronger their muscles are, the MORE likely they are to be injured (by injuring themselves).

The problem is that a system is only as strong as its weakest link. For a boy who is between 11 and 16, the weakest links in the chain are their growth plates (especially of the Medial Epicondyle). It doesn't matter how strong your muscles are if the bones to which they are anchored are made up of (inherently weak) growth cartilage.

In plain english, it means that adolescents have the muscles of adults but the bones of children. No amount of arm strength can change that fact (and will often only make things worse).

So why did the people of my generation (when we were kids) play baseball from sun up to sun down, on the sandlot all day, and then a game 3 nights per week, plus practices, throwing upwards of 200-300 throws per day every day, a very high percentage of which were stress throws, and my generation has less arm injuries than today?

You really think the doctors know anything about training an arm? Let me clue you in.....doctors repair arms......they do not train them. And if you ask a doctor who repairs arms what caused this or what to do in the future, just what possibly can he say......"Duh.....I think if you'd throw less this wouldn't have happened." No ****! If I'd stop playing completely this wouldn't have happened.

Risk v Reward. Analyze it. Study it. Don't listen to a doctor telling you how to train your arm.

Linear

God forbid I correct you but a good ortho/sports doc can keep a young arm from being repaired--get their advice from the outset and a load of problems wont happen

Just curious as to what the limits are--my computer won't open the document. I also noticed that it said it is looking into limiting or banning breaking pitches? How on earth would they do that? The umps in our area wouldn't know a breaking pitch if it hit them in the head (no offense to all umps--just the volunteers we get from the stands). Also, what exactly determines a breaking pitch? A CB obviously but my son throws a sinker that moves and all he does is grip the ball differently. Anyway in our neck of the woods that would be nearly impossible to enforce. Fortunatly my oldest won't be doing LL and my 10 yo will be playing his last year there. Mind you I do think it is important to monitor pitchers and count their pitches, I'm all into that but not sure how it would work for many of the LL that are terribly unorganized and into Daddy Ball. JMHO

"So why did the people of my generation (when we were kids) play baseball from sun up to sun down, on the sandlot all day, and then a game 3 nights per week, plus practices, throwing upwards of 200-300 throws per day every day, a very high percentage of which were stress throws, and my generation has less arm injuries than today?"

There are a number of problems with your logic. First, the sample size is too small (and is not scientific). Second, it could be that you were lucky; just as people's muscles differ, so too could the strength of their UCL.


"You really think the doctors know anything about training an arm? Let me clue you in.....doctors repair arms......they do not train them."

I actually agree with you. I believe a big problem is that too often doctors go along with the conventional wisdom without really looking into whether it makes sense. Also, their orientation (and training) tends to be much more focused on fixing problems rather than preventing them. Prevention is a very different field (public health) than is medicine.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
...the people of my generation....the sample size is too small

Really. I thought the babyboomers were one of the largest generations ever.

I think I started playing little leauge in 1950 and we had limits then. We were limited to a set number of innings per week (6 I think)with a set number of days rest between games. The same basic rules apply today in Dixie Youth baseball.

I only knew one player to have arm surgery during my playing days and his name was Artie Samuel Schukenfeldt. I always felt they had the ability to do the surgery but were waiting on Tommy Johns to hurt his arm so they could give the surgery a proper name.

Fungo,

YOU ARE THE MAN!!!!!

Much better than EF Hutton! When FUNGO talks, people listen.

BTW, in the late 50's we didn't have LL. We had Old Timers and there you could pitch all day, every day. No coaches per team, just a field director that was in charge of everything including umping the games.

Personally I would have liked it called Artie Schukenfelt surgery. Too many pitches in one day or outing can be harmful as has been proven. The proven side has come from a record number of surgeries on young kids to repair damage, and their histories usually involved over throwing. However, many have shown that throwing of some kind everyday can be benefical.

Pitch count has been debated before on HHBBW. The information is out there if you are willing to educate yourself. This is a step in the right direction. It is ultimately the parent’s responsibility to monitor “pitcher abuse” and pitch count. Coach Chris I agree with you that these counts are at the maximum threshold and IMHO too high.

BBfam, the link in JT’s original post opens a “.pdf” formatted file. You need “Adobe Reader” to open and read the document. This is free directly from Abobe. Adobe for Windows XP is available at the following link. If you have another operating system just go to their (Adobe's) home page and find what is fit for purpose. Hope this helps.

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html


Fungo, I think they should have given Artie his due…. Could have named it A S S surgery but that may have been confused with some of the cosmetic procedures.

“Once you fatigue, it affects your mechanics and you can’t pitch with the precise timing required for a smooth, compact motion.”
Nolan Ryan

I'm not a fan of pitch counts. Every kid is different and not all kids have the same level of conditioning. There's certainly some overuse/abuse going on at the youth levels and I'm not sure what an appropriate solution would be. But I don't think pitch counts are the answer.

Jason

Smokey-We have Adobe but it says it is unavailable for use??? I open adobe files all the time but for some reason this one won't work. Maybe my husband is organizing a protest to prevent me from more baseball sites

quote:

I'm not a fan of pitch counts. Every kid is different and not all kids have the same level of conditioning. There's certainly some overuse/abuse going on at the youth levels and I'm not sure what an appropriate solution would be. But I don't think pitch counts are the answer.

Until a kid is 16, conditioning will do nothing to reduce their risk of injury. In fact, it very well may increase it.

Until kids are 16, the only solution is limiting pitches thrown and months played.

In my youth, the 50's we played and played, threw and threw---BUT and this to me is a BIG BUT-- nobody stopped when the arm hurt-- we played thru it-- I also feel kids do not throw enought today, they are at the other extreme ---
I had both my shoulders operated on when I got into my late 40's/early 50/s due to wear and tear in my yourht which finally manifested itself

Today, pain and arm problems are diagnosed early and not allowed to manifest themselves---still too much pitching without enough throwing in between outings can cause problems with todays youngsters-- they do not have arms that are in shape to take the wear and tear of ptiching and/or catching

Mandated pitch counts are a step in the right direction as a preventative measure but the kids still need to throw more than do--not pitch or stressful throwing but merely playing catch

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Until a kid is 16, conditioning will do nothing to reduce their risk of injury. In fact, it very well may increase it.

You're kidding right? Conditioning will do "nothing" to reduce the risk of injury?

Jason

quote:

You're kidding right? Conditioning will do "nothing" to reduce the risk of injury?

No, I'm not kidding (when it comes to pitchers who are under 16).

The problem is that, until a boy is 16, their muscles, tendons, and ligaments are stronger than the growth plates in their elbow. No amount of strengthening muscles can change the fact that growth cartilage is inherently weak.

Only two things will protect a pitcher younger than 16...

1) Low-stress mechanics.
2) Limiting the number of high-intensity pitches.

Of course, conditioning can help once the growth plates in the elbow have closed at or around 16.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

Until a kid is 16, conditioning will do nothing to reduce their risk of injury. In fact, it very well may increase it.

Until kids are 16, the only solution is limiting pitches thrown and months played.

IMO - That makes absolutely no sense to me - and is directly contrary to every thing I have experienced with youth players over the last 20 years.

quote:

IMO - That makes absolutely no sense to me - and is directly contrary to every thing I have experienced with youth players over the last 20 years.

First, you have to think about this like a mechanical or structural engineer.

Now, here's the logic of the statement.

Any chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you try to lift a 2,000 pound rock, and the S-hook that you use to connect the chain to the sling is only rated to 1,000 pounds, it doesn't matter that the crane that you use is rated at 20,000 pounds, the chain that you use is rated at 10,000 pounds, and the sling is rated at 5,000 pounds. You won't be able to lift the rock (for long) because the S-hook will fail.

The same thing holds for the Medial Epicondyle of the elbow (the bony bump on the inside of the elbow to which the UCL and many of the muscles of the forearm attach). The problem is that, while the UCL and the muscles of the forearm may be rated at 300 pounds, the growth cartilage that holds the Medial Epicondyle to the Humerus bone is only rated at something like 200 pounds. If you apply too much force to the Medial Epicondyle, then one of two things will happen. Either the Medial Epicondyle will pull off of the Humerus or the growth plate that attaches the Medial Epicondyle to the Humerus will close prematurely. In either case, the result is a permanent and irreparable injury.

Bulking up the muscles of the forearm will not do any good because at the end of the day they attach to the (fundamentally weak until the player is 16) Medial Epicondyle. The only thing you can do is limit the amount of stress that is applied to the Medial Epicondyle. That means never throwing so hard as to pull the Medial Epicondyle off of the Humerus and not throwing so much as to cause the growth plate to close prematurely.

Well said!