L.L. pitch counts

I wouldn't agree with having a kid throw 100 pitches every start, but I think he could do it once in a while. The other stat amazes me, 60% curves, that's rediculous.

I think it is a championships so it is expected, although not an excuse for 102 pitch count.

I would be more curious to know what they pitched to get there. And how soon they will pitch again. Larger ratio of curves to FB, ridiculous, no change ups?

I came in at the end, noticed the pitcher from one of the teams was stretching out his arm as soon as he left the mound.

Im sure y'all (im in the south now living in GA) have been watching the LLWS. One of the first things that came to my mind was "wow it seems like every time they are in a jam its curveball, curveball, curveball" and it also seems like thats all they throw

I did camps for midwest baseball academy and when you would let the younger kids throw off the mound at the end...everything was curveball curveball curveball! Look at Kyle Farnsworth...he has a 95 plus fastball and everytime he is in a jam he throws breaking stuff

A year or so ago HBO had a special on little league kids who were having Tommy John surgery at the ages of 12 and 13.

I wanted to see what everyone thought about this, its almost getting out of hand. shouldnt the coaches be responsable? Not only is it not healthy for a 12 year old to be throwing like that its also the fact that when you get in the habit of throwing all curveballs...you slow your arm down then all of a sudden your older and you have no velocity. Many coaches preach fastball change-up, im a firm believer of thats all you need at that level. There was an article online with someone quoted saying "dont throw curveballs until you know how to shave"

I know most coaches dont care what happens to players after they leave the program. In high school 3 years in a row our number 1 had TJ surgery after their sr year. Because it was curveball, curveball, curveball, it was throwing 90 pitches and then going to the OF, even throwing 90 pitches, going to the OF and coming back into pitch. No kid in their right mind will ever say no....but do you think maybe they should?

Its a lot of pitches and they throw a lot of offspeed. The rules for rest give me a stomach ache also. The kid can throw an inning the next game and the entire third game, I think. In a LL district tourney a kid could throw two complete games in 3 or 4 days.

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Indian08 posted: I know most coaches dont care what happens to players after they leave the program. In high school 3 years in a row our number 1 had TJ surgery after their sr year. Because it was curveball, curveball, curveball, it was throwing 90 pitches and then going to the OF, even throwing 90 pitches, going to the OF and coming back into pitch. No kid in their right mind will ever say no....but do you think maybe they should?

I'm not sure it is most coaches. I think a lot of coaches do care. I'd say about half, based on personal experience with summer and high school. My sons last high school coach either did not care or was completely ignorant. He was about wins and losses, period. We had issues.

My son took himself out after 6 innings, 92 pitches and 16 K's and a 5-0 lead. He told the coach he was done for the day. He wanted to pitch well the next start...and in college.

I think there are are 2 issues here.

1. We live in the present with little regard to the unknown future. There is a lot of emotion when getting to this level (LLWS) and the initial thought is to put your best team on the field. Which leads to the more important point 2.

2. Where are the parents? They show them sitting in the stands but are their heads? As a coach you don't listen to parents as far as strategy, lineups, and pt. But when it comes to the health it's the parent who should make the call. Don't say that parents do not understand the issues. When it gets to this level they all know about pitchcounts, they all know about the curveball issues, and they all know about overuse. At the same time they would bittch if Johnnie was taken out of a game after 75 pitches, and who knows what repurcussions a coach would have if they ended up losing the game because of the move. Bottom line there is a level of communication to have with a parent and it's obvious the parents have given coaches card blanche in this regard. They all want to see Johnnie on the bump regardless of the issues and then down the road if he ends up having an arm problem they turn around and blame the coach.

When I coached that age group I involved the parents all the time usually in a relaxed environment with a beverage. # 1 I waned to get to know them because if the kids knew mom/dad were behind me it would be easier to establish a level of order. #2 Parents are also a team and if they accept me, and I listen to them (to an extent), we will funtion as a team and eliminate those "parent" issues.

Randy,

I coached a couple of years in 13-14 yo Jr. Ball. I had never heard of a pitch count. None of the other coaches in the league ever mentioned pitch count. My son started pitching at 8. I never understood there were physical limits until I read about them here when he was 14. I was as bad as anyone you have seen on TV.

There has been alot more public discussion since then. I still wonder if many parents know any better though. I agree the rest just go with the flow.

John, that was a real long time ago

In the last five years it has been an issue at least with our LL. This year there was a pitch count which has been adopted by many leagues and works in conjuction with "rest period". The base ump clicks pitches in the inning and it goes in the score book. Not only does it save arms but it also forces the development of other pitchers.

It is an issue and I'm sort of familiar with the pitch count pilot program in about 200 leagues this year. I hope they put it in for the rest of the leagues. It will force coaches to throw some one else besides their own kid.

One of the two pitchers from Lemont threw a 6 inning complete game on Saturday and then came back for another complete game on Tuesday. I'm sure in both instances the kids threw at least 80 pitches. The ironic things is they showed and interviewed the mom in the stands with a clicker counting pitches.

Educate coaches. Educate the parents. Set rules. Enforce the rules.

How many of these kids especially the stud pitchers also play on other teams during the LL season such as USSA and AAU not to mention the local travel team? A kid pitches in his LL game and then goes out and pitches in his AAU tourney. No way to enforce pitch counts or innings limits when they play on multiple teams. It comes down to the parents being aware of the danger and the consequences and educating themselves. Then they have to step up and take charge of the situation.

YOU have to protect your kids arm. He has to protect his arm. Im sorry to say it as a HS coach but I have seen many HS kids arms abused over the years I have been coaching HS baseball. Quite honestly these coaches are clueless. They put a 12 year old out there for 100 plus pitches and then he throws 60% cbs and then they talk about how strong he is and how he is used to it. How strong are you at 12 and how used to anything are you at 12. The bottom line is they want to win so bad they loose sight of the fact that the health of the kid is more important than winning the game.

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The ironic things is the showed and interviewed the mom in the stands with a clicker counting pitches

My clicker goes to 4 digits, just like hers does. What good does counting them do, if you don't say anything.

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Dad04 says;
My clicker goes to 4 digits, just like hers does. What good does counting them do, if you don't say anything.

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Coach May says;
Educate coaches. Educate the parents. Set rules. Enforce the rules.

Coach May those are great steps in fixing the problem, why is it so hard to impliment that train of thought

It truly isn't the pitch count that is a concern. Because of the rest they get. It is the fact that a 12 year old is throwing curve balls. They only need to develop two pitches a fastball and a changeup. Wait till they have developed more/get older before they start throwing curves. For a twelve year old to throw 62 curves, and 40 fastballs is ridiculous. I understand that is championship baseball. It shouldn't be a win at all costs. A fastball and changeup will be just fine at that level. They can't hit a curveball at that level, not because of movement, but because of change of speed.

At the PONY WS (14yo) this year one kid went 7 innings on Sunday, 6 innings on Tuesday and started on Thursday. He was pulled after 2 1/3 on Thursday when the game had been put out of reach. My guess is he threw 80, 100 and 70 pitches respectively. He threw more curves than anything else. The sad part is they most likely used him on Thursday when they had to beat the same team on Thursday and Friday to advance so that they'd have him available to start on Saturday if the did advance. The coach would most likely have let him throw 4 complete games in 7 days, throwing mostly curves. Fortunately for the pitcher, they lost.

To stick up for the boy's mom: You never know what's being said when.

I have had conversations with coaches that go like this:

Coach: "How far can he go today?"

Me: "That depends. When do you want him to go again? He's fresh enough to go to 90-100 today, but if you do that he's done for a week. If you intend to use him again in a couple of days, keep him under 40."

Later in the game, when he's at 70 pitches and they're thinking about taking him out so as to bring him back in two days, I've been known to say things like, "You may as well let him finish now, because he ain't pitching again in this tournament."

So, if IL had won, perhaps that mom with the clicker would've been putting her foot down later, when they tried to pitch her son again in just a few days. I wouldn't write her off just because she may have had the class to wait until she could have her say off camera.

I think her son threw 6 innings on Friday, then 6 on Tuesday, so he had three full days of rest. Since he only gave up I think one hit on Friday, hopefully his pitch count was relatively low (under 90?) though I actually don't know. But in this kind of tourney, three full days of rest is huge by comparison to what they are doing with some of these kids.

They were talking about bringing him back Saturday if they could get that far (again three days off), but that's also Brent Musburger talking, not a coach or a parent. Ultimately they didn't get there so we'll never really know what they would have done. In this case, the loss helped to assure that the kid now gets a chance to recuperate adequately.

Way back when, when I played in LL it was expected to throw a 6 inning complete game. During the season it really wasn't a big deal because you got a week's rest between starts.

Post season was a different story. Back then LL all-stars was single elimination, so the stud pitcher threw every game possible. I don't know how common it was but our stud pitcher destroyed his arm that year. I don't really remember but I'd guess he pitched in 4 or 5 of the 5 or 6 games we played.

Midlo Dad, the pitcher threw Saturday afternoon and his pitch total was 75. Then he threw again on Tuesday evening and again his pitch total was 75. I watched both games and you can get the pitch counts from the box score dates, etc. on the LLWS site. Bottomline....Only 2 days rest and a whole bunch of curveballs.

Just because there more abuse going on somewhere else, it doesn't make things right. I'm not trying to condemn to mom or the coach but if no one says anything the kids are the only ones getting hurt.

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Midlo Dad says: I have had conversations with coaches that go like this:

Coach: "How far can he go today?"

Me: "That depends. When do you want him to go again? He's fresh enough to go to 90-100 today, but if you do that he's done for a week. If you intend to use him again in a couple of days, keep him under 40."

Later in the game, when he's at 70 pitches and they're thinking about taking him out so as to bring him back in two days, I've been known to say things like, "You may as well let him finish now, because he ain't pitching again in this tournament."

Must be nice. I've had conversations like...

ME: after game on the phone.."Um Coach, don't you think 115 is a little bit too far to go the first game of the year when we are getting shutout and losing 4-0?"

COACH: "WHO'S THE COACH?? YOU? I'M THE COACH!!"

Dad04,
That was Midlo Dad, not me. Please correct it.
Thx

Was at Cooperstown Dream park recently and saw abuses of kids and pitch counts that make LL look like a facist state. Saw a kid with a 150 plus pitch count and 50% plus curve balls. Another two games in one day, 3 innings first game, 8 hours later, 2 more innings. Another pitched in 4 games in four days all 4 appearances in excess of 2 innings.

Done. Sorry

Dad04, The proper response to that kind of treatment from a coach, on a travel team, is, "You are not our coach any more. We quit."

When it's your high school coach, then it gets sticky. I agree with the post above -- not my place to argue general management decisions, but if my son's health is jeopardized, I WILL speak up. So far this has not been a problem for me, and happily I don't think it will be. But I would not be above putting my kid in the car, leaving, and taking it up with the principal the next morning.

Here's one example from the LL Regionals and World Series. The LH pitcher from Oregon (last name is Fry) pitched the following days in the NW regional and now the LLWS....

Fri 8/4 - 6 innings, 86 pitches
Tue 8/8 - 6 innings, 103 pitches
Sun 8/13 - 6 innings, 99 pitches
Mon 8/21 - 6 innings, 114 pitches

He will certainly pitch this weekend in the US championship or world championship. Given the rest between starts, is this too many pitches for a 12yo?

Jon

little league preaches looking out for kids then allows them to pitch 100 pitches in 6 innings.and thats all right in the world series.pilot program my foot ,they have dr andrews on the advisory board just ask him what he thinks.
i'm not in favor of the curve ball at this age at all,but in my opinion the real threat is letting a kid throw 100 ptches in a game.as you tire your mechanics suffer and this is what causes the damage,in my opinion.
they have to have 2 days rest and skip a game.not exactly great recovery time.having watched most of the games on tv.i would guess the better pitchers have thrown 3 or 4 hundred pitches in the last 2 and a half weeks.i could be way off but i think i'm close.that isn't good for anyone.
they say winning isn't their focus ,sure doesn't seem that way.

Midlo dad,

We tried to do the right thing. Made the initial mistake of going to the fence when the count got to 100, then handled the rest privately. My kid was labeled the prima dona and missed a couple of starts, and me the meddling jerk, but who cares. I didn't think the coach was qualified. Apparently someone else thought so. He was unemployed at the end of the season and has had 2 more jobs in the last 2 years.

I saw one of the kids icing..in between innings! How stupid!

People please, ML pitchers are pulled when they reach 100 pitches all the time. LL pitchers with 100 plus pitch counts! And on top of that no restriction by the coaches on the amount of cb's thrown. In fact if its working they live on it. Three days rest! Come on three days rest or four days rest I dont care if its three weeks rest. Not to mention the same kid that throws 100 pitches plus is in the line up the next game playing a posistion letting it go from SS or the Outfield. See it for what it really is. Abuse. We pull a 19 year old with 90 pitch count and rest him for four days and dont allow him to play the field untill he has had three days rest. But a 12 year old can throw 100 plus pitches with 50 curveballs and play ss the next day and its all good? What a joke. It really is sad because sooner or later it will take its toll. How many young arms are finished and they dont even realize what they are doing. And whats even worse some dont even care. We talk about abuse and coaches that are clueless on here all the time. People come on here all the time with horror stories from days gone past. All you have to do is turn on the tv and watch this stuff and see it for yourself. The parents are all caught up in the moment. The coaches are all trying to show that they are the man and want to win so badly they do whatever they have to do to win. And the TV people only care about the ratings. Im at the point I can not even watch it and enjoy it because all I can focus on is the cb after cb and the 100 plus pitch counts. And the ml radar readings at the top of the screen. WOW that is 100 mph in major league velocity! And we wonder why so many kids come on here and all they can focus on his how fast they throw and how do I throw faster. It all adds up to **** as far as I am concerned.

Hey fellas

a lot of good remarks...I always love the bickering!!

for years we have discussed this problem, its something that never gets old and keeps coming up

I guess my next question is....what can people do to prevent it. If a 13 or 14 year old kid is having major reconstructive surgery thats a big problem. Who should be held accountable? What rules can be put in to prevent this? I just dont think winning at the little league level or even the high school level is worth ruining a player

Our team doctor, Dr Pete Tonino was writing articles and going on tv talking about this ten years ago and it seems like its getting worse

If the trend continues what will it be like it ten years?

Play T ball

Interesting thoughts. here is another one to add. Son is a Freshman in High School, did not play fall ball because he was playing football. Coach calls husband and says We are starting your son against their Varsity tonight but we need to keep his pitch count down because he has not thrown much this season. Husband says thanks and off we go to the game. Son starts and is doing realy well. Fast ball, curve and slider are all working. i am keeping the pitch count and yes I understand pitch count.

Son throws five innings and is at 63 pitches. He runs in and Dad ask him how he feels. He tells dad his arm is sore but the coach wants him to go back out "because we are winning". There is not anyone in the bull pen warming up. Dad aks asst. coach for pitch count and he is told we have not kept one. Dad tells son he is done and son tells coach.

Dad and Mom get called into the Varsity head coaches office because we interfered with the game, the coaches that were out there told him that they had someone warming up and were aware of the pitch count. Parents are told not to talk to son during games.

Sometimes you do what is right for your child and you still run into a wall

Coach May,
Strong statements and many feel your frustration. I think parents DO know the implications, but are afraid to speak up for many reasons. One, they know their player will be upset (they didn't tell them how unhealthy it is) two, because the team might LOSE and three, they won't get to play anymore.

I can't watch this year either, the frequent use of cb's is very upsetting.

Years ago my son played in a league at that age and were not allowed to throw cb's. We were a very good team, very good. When we played in holiday tournaments locally, our boys were miffed by the cb thrown by pitchers of other leagues. We usually won, but their philosophy was throw as many cb's as you can to get them out. It was sad back then, it is sad today.

My feeling is, 10-13 the game should be determined in the infield ,outfield not by a pitchers dual. Might be a bit old fashioned, but health considerations should be the factor. I happened to be reading a local rec leagues rules, for younger players, only two innings allowed by the pitcher per game. Subs had to be used. This was so that everyone got a chance to play, no bench sitters. I think maybe it's time to go back to "play for fun and learn". I know that many leave rec leagues for these reasons, but come on folks, honestly, at 10-13 does it really MATTER? If yours is destined to be a varsity player in HS, college or pro player, it will happen. JMO.

My understanding, correct me if I am wrong that when entering pro ball for the first time from HS, certain pitches are limited. Is that true? If it is, if that doesn't send a messege, I don't know what will.

quote:

Originally posted by allaboutbaseball:

Son throws five innings and is at 63 pitches. He runs in and Dad ask him how he feels. He tells dad his arm is sore but the coach wants him to go back out "because we are winning".

...and then son tells coach his arm is sore, please pitch Billy, Bobby and/or Tommy.

The coach will look at him like he has two heads, stomp and moan and carry on. Too bad, so sad.

TRHit always says the kid needs to grow up and he's right. If he has to tell Coach 3 times his arm hurts, that's OK. Coach will get over it. It will be alright. I promise.

I told mine "It's your team, your arm and your career. If I were you I would take care of all of them.", while I privately lobbied to those in control, on his behalf.

College players are mostly on pitch counts to start the season. 70-80 pitches the first 2 or 3 weeks is all they go, after long practices all fall and winter. Pro ball is the same way, or even more conservative. No reason for others to get less consideration.

Dad04,
Not only do some college coaches have pitch counts they have inning counts now. Usually this is predetermined so that if the team wins the pitcher who began the game and has under the amount allowed gets the win (less than 5).

This is usually allowed for first few games or for pitchers coming off of injury.

I am totally with Coach May on this one. Some good news is that the Little League has finished their pilot pitch count program, and the board is recommending it for next season. It has to be strict and followed in order to be effective. Educating coaches is one of the things I do as often as I can.

Dad04 and Rz,
Wanna try that again?

Willj,
Given that it is the LLWS I don't think it was too over the line if his arm didn't hurt while throwing. The 3 days rest between the first two starts and the 114 pitches in the last start was going a bit far. He'll need to rest it for a while after the series and then be very careful starting up again as a lot of injuries happen after a player allows scar tissue to form and lets bone and muscle atrophy.

just heard this today.the pitch countprogram in little league will be 85 pitches then four days rest.so now the kid can pitch 170 a week instead of 7 innings a week and maybe 100 pitches.coaches allready thinking i guess.

Just because theres an 85 pitch limit doesn't mean the kid will make it that far. Some kids and coaches have probably had 125-150 pitch performances in 7 innings. Other coaches wouldn't let that happen and parents never should. Most teams will have 2-3 kids they can rely on and with only 2 games a week, the count could help insure that kids won't be going over 85. If teams, leagues, coaches and parents don't police the abuse of a young pitchers arm, it will get worse before it gets better. At least L.L. is taking steps. When will AAU and USSSA take steps. I have seen 2 140 pitch performances this past summer from travel teams from different parts of the country, 1 14 yr old, 1 15.