If location is more important than velocity, why are scouts at High School games only carrying radar guns? I never see any of them charting pitches.
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I think you're confusing ability with projectability.
Velocity is something scouts look for but they are more interested in pitchers putting up zeroes . Had a Tigers scout tell me hat yesterday .
Another part of projectability is - you can teach location but it's hard to teach velocity.
This is just one of the factors that go into making a decision. They have to figure out if the kid is maxed out on his velocity or if there is more in the tank. If he's got a great arm but is everywhere they may take a chance thinking they can fix his mechanics.
Velocity WITH location is the goal but very few high school kids have both.
This is just one of the factors that go into making a decision. They have to figure out if the kid is maxed out on his velocity or if there is more in the tank. If he's got a great arm but is everywhere they may take a chance thinking they can fix his mechanics.
Velocity WITH location is the goal but very few high school kids have both.
Over the weekend I was at a JC game. One of the starters was a tall, big lefty who throws 85-87ish with a good breaking ball and good control. He's committed to a 4 year school. No guns came out. He was relieved by a relatively short righty throwing upper 80s and touching 90. He's signed at a 4 year school. No guns came out. Later in the game a 6'5" lefty came in and threw strikes and got a 78 mph breaking ball over but didn't have good command that day. He was throwing an easy 91-92 and the guns came out. The other team was hitting well and he didn't come close to putting up zeroes. There was definitely some buzz from the scouts.
Some of the pitchers who put up zeroes against aluminum don't project as well as others who don't fare as well against aluminum.
Some of the pitchers who put up zeroes against aluminum don't project as well as others who don't fare as well against aluminum.
So many times I hear coaches (not very good ones) instruct their pitches to take some velo off to get the ball over the plate. IMHO bad advice. I do not beleive that taking something off equates to better control. Even idf it did to some small degree, the pitcher needs to get some "free strikes. " By that I mean, pitches that would otherwise be balls, but were swung on by hitters becasue they had less time to evaluate the pitch. Kids who "just throw strikes" at o lower velo have to be more perfect because they don't get kids to chase as much.
I just start a "new to pitcher" thread about son starting his pitching career this year (14yo). As of now he is just a thrower that has a good fastball, but keeps it up. He will eventually get lit up if he doesn't learn to control it, but he is getting a lot of kids to chase the high hard one because many 14 yo hitters are tempted by that pitch.
I just start a "new to pitcher" thread about son starting his pitching career this year (14yo). As of now he is just a thrower that has a good fastball, but keeps it up. He will eventually get lit up if he doesn't learn to control it, but he is getting a lot of kids to chase the high hard one because many 14 yo hitters are tempted by that pitch.
rocketson1 had great velocity in HS; so great that no one would swing, unless he was getting called strikes...
CADad,
Scouts were also at a game I was at Thursday night and it was a similar situation as to when they pulled out their guns. I was impressed that they could tell just by eyeballing who was "only" in the upper 80s and who had exceeded the magic 90 threshold.
gap2gap, my son was one of those hard throwers who got that advice in travel ball (just take some off), and it did mess him up because it interfered with his timing and he'd miss high and away. However, he did not get the benefit of kids trying to chase either. Rather they were so intimidated they would just stand there and hope he'd throw 4 balls before throwing 3 strikes.
Scouts were also at a game I was at Thursday night and it was a similar situation as to when they pulled out their guns. I was impressed that they could tell just by eyeballing who was "only" in the upper 80s and who had exceeded the magic 90 threshold.
gap2gap, my son was one of those hard throwers who got that advice in travel ball (just take some off), and it did mess him up because it interfered with his timing and he'd miss high and away. However, he did not get the benefit of kids trying to chase either. Rather they were so intimidated they would just stand there and hope he'd throw 4 balls before throwing 3 strikes.
Most starting pitchers will work about 3 to 4 mph below their max velocity, especially at the higher levels of baseball. Hard throwing relievers often work at a velocity where they can throw strikes with control but not necessarily command.
It really depends on the individual but most kids with the ability to throw hard should be throwing at whatever velocity they can throw strikes at and not be too worried about having great command. As the kids get older and face stronger competition they'll have to develop some degree of command to be successful.
In the case of the pitchers I mentioned above the scouts knew who they were looking for and had a good idea what the pitchers threw going in.
It really depends on the individual but most kids with the ability to throw hard should be throwing at whatever velocity they can throw strikes at and not be too worried about having great command. As the kids get older and face stronger competition they'll have to develop some degree of command to be successful.
In the case of the pitchers I mentioned above the scouts knew who they were looking for and had a good idea what the pitchers threw going in.
This might surprise some people, but it's right there in our database.
We see thousands of pitchers every year including those that are the very best. In most cases we see them both at individual events (Showcase) and playing for a team (Tournament).
People assume that these pitchers light up the gun at these showcases where they might only throw a couple innings. The facts show that many times the highest velocity we ever get on a pitcher has actually come from when he was pitching in a tournament.
I think that some of these guys get real pumped up when they are competing to win and you see higher velocity. In nearly every case, we see something very close to the showcase velocity in the tournament games. Very seldom do we see a 90 mph showcase guy, top out at 85 in a tournament. I would guess that many of the coaches of the top travel clubs have noticed the same thing.
Example... Both Peter Tago (CA) and DeAndre Smelter were at the PG National last June. Tago and Smelter later faced each other in a play off game, Tago with ABD, Smelter with the Canes in Georgia at the 17U WWBA Championships. Tago topped out at 93 MPH at the Metrodome. Then the next month was still touching 94 in the 7th inning in the tournament. Smelter topped out at 95 in the Metrodome and in the game against ABD he pitched the whole game and touched 95 around 20 times. He was also 95 at the 18U championship. We've noticed the same thing with Jameson Taillon and other top pitching prospects.
I do agree with the starter vs short relief guy argument. One can simply throw gas without worrying about pacing himself. Still that doesn't mean all the highest velocity guys are used as relievers. Some of the hardest throwers are starting pitchers!
We see thousands of pitchers every year including those that are the very best. In most cases we see them both at individual events (Showcase) and playing for a team (Tournament).
People assume that these pitchers light up the gun at these showcases where they might only throw a couple innings. The facts show that many times the highest velocity we ever get on a pitcher has actually come from when he was pitching in a tournament.
I think that some of these guys get real pumped up when they are competing to win and you see higher velocity. In nearly every case, we see something very close to the showcase velocity in the tournament games. Very seldom do we see a 90 mph showcase guy, top out at 85 in a tournament. I would guess that many of the coaches of the top travel clubs have noticed the same thing.
Example... Both Peter Tago (CA) and DeAndre Smelter were at the PG National last June. Tago and Smelter later faced each other in a play off game, Tago with ABD, Smelter with the Canes in Georgia at the 17U WWBA Championships. Tago topped out at 93 MPH at the Metrodome. Then the next month was still touching 94 in the 7th inning in the tournament. Smelter topped out at 95 in the Metrodome and in the game against ABD he pitched the whole game and touched 95 around 20 times. He was also 95 at the 18U championship. We've noticed the same thing with Jameson Taillon and other top pitching prospects.
I do agree with the starter vs short relief guy argument. One can simply throw gas without worrying about pacing himself. Still that doesn't mean all the highest velocity guys are used as relievers. Some of the hardest throwers are starting pitchers!
quote:I never see any of them charting pitches.
They make notes on their observations. The RADAR guns give objective verification of the MPH as well.
The answer to the question of which they want is, of course, that they want both.
But often, location can be taught. To some extent, so can velocity, but to some extent that is a gift as well. Which would you rather have, the guy who has the MPH and who could learn location, or the guy who locates who will never develop MPH? Only one of them has a chance to get to where he is good in both categories. The other one will never fill both bills.
PG,
JMO, but only the guys with upper 90s type velocity can pull off trying to throw gas for a whole game. Once a pitcher drops below upper 90s the tradeoff tends to lean in favor of location in MLB. Of course deception and movement play a role also and it can vary.
Wasn't it Verlander who decided to go back to throwing a 4 seamer and throwing hard rather than trying to throw 2 seamers and locate?
BTW, sent you a PM.
JMO, but only the guys with upper 90s type velocity can pull off trying to throw gas for a whole game. Once a pitcher drops below upper 90s the tradeoff tends to lean in favor of location in MLB. Of course deception and movement play a role also and it can vary.
Wasn't it Verlander who decided to go back to throwing a 4 seamer and throwing hard rather than trying to throw 2 seamers and locate?
BTW, sent you a PM.