long toss

quote:

quoting thepainguy

Velocity comes from the muscles of the torso (e.g. the core), not the muscles of the arm or the shoulder.

The muscles of the arm are minimally involved in generating velocity. The muscles of the shoulder hold the arm in its socket. They don't generate significant power.

What good mechanics do is enable you to tap into the muscles of your core.

Long toss can help with that process (but by strengthening the muscles of your core, not the muscles of your arm or shoulder). I believe that throwing weighted balls works, but not in the way people think. I think that all of that throwing develops the muscles of your core.

i believe that when you throw you use the power of your core and lower body, you are able to tap in the the power of the core and legs through a transfer of power from the bottom up the the shoulder...i agree with you there

but what your saying is that when you long toss that all that effort your using is being done on your core, that statement right there is wrong....your shoulder is being strengthened thats why your shoulder hurts after throwing and not your core

plus you also said that 'the muscles of you shoulder hold the arm in the socket'...that is also wrong...its a proven fact that when a pitcher throws a basball at such tremendous speeds your arm comes of the the socket for a fraction of a second and pops back in...its said that when a pitcher throws a 90 mph fastball at the point of release his shoulder is moving at 21 revolutions per second (your arm moves in a circle 21 times in a second) so that being said its physically impossible for a human body to function under that much stress and have the shoulder stay in its socket

quote:

look at pitches tall lanky pitchers like randy johnson and chris young, there core is about as weak as a toddlers, but there both throwing hard

Just cause there lanky doesn't mean they have a weak core. They throw hard because they have a long stride which uses all of their body's elastic energy and they have good timing.

As for as throwing long goes.....Well....LOL....
I happen to like and promote it.....

To me throwing long is this...(Always concetrating on throwing correctly and to a location)
10 throws at 30 ft
10 throws at 60 ft
10 throws at 90 ft
10 throws at 120 ft
10-15 minutes at 200 (or slightly greater depending on armstrength)

*there are also days when I can utilize my throwing long w/ my CH.....You and partner are about 120 to 150 ft apart w/ each of you tossing your hat about 30 ft in front of you.
The distance should force you throw it w/ FB armspeed and allow you to see what the ball is doing (hopefully run/sink) and the hat provides a target, as you try to hit the hat and not your partner in the air.


After coaching in college (pitchers) for 12 years I have had no problems w/ pitchers throwing long. Does it INCREASE arm strength? I don't know and don't care. I do know that every single pitcher that I have coached LOVED to throw long. Can it be done wrong? Absolutely. When done correctly and done while using the whole body I feel it is beneficial to maintainence during the season and I have had success while throwing long during the offseason (4 days a week).

I have never seen adverse affects from throwing long (i.e. command issues, particularly FB's up).

This is based on my experience....As a college coach (including summer collegiate leagues) I have had over 30 pitchers on my staffs that have gone on to pitch for MLB affiliated clubs, 3 of which are in the big leagues now. Is it because of me that these men got a chance to play pro ball? NO WAY.....but I do like to think that what we did while they were w/ me did not hurt them or their chances.

This is just my experience and all of the opinions stated in this thread are completely respected. This is just how I feel on the topic.

I have enjoyed reading the posts......Great work men....

quote:

Originally posted by Bustamove:

quote:

look at pitches tall lanky pitchers like randy johnson and chris young, there core is about as weak as a toddlers, but there both throwing hard

Just cause there lanky doesn't mean they have a weak core. They throw hard because they have a long stride which uses all of their body's elastic energy and they have good timing.

no where in that statemnet do you say they have a strong core, you say they use elastic energy which comes from the stretch of your outer limbs and timing, neither of which has to do with a strong balanced core

quote:

no where in that statemnet do you say they have a strong core, you say they use elastic energy which comes from the stretch of your outer limbs and timing, neither of which has to do with a strong balanced core

I didn't say they have a strong core because there's no way for me to no if they do or not. I don't know them personally. I was explaining to you why they threw hard.

If it weren't for long toss my son probably wouldn't have a position in the OF/IF/or P. Long Toss has helped him with his recovery from pitching and he has one of the strongest arms on his FROSH team.

FYI he isn't the biggest kid on his team as well.

Heres my take:

You should throw the ball as far as possible because it creates a mental connection with the body to throw the ball with teh highest possible release velocity. And to say that long toss doesn't make you throw harder over time is absurd, it teaches you how to throw hard. It recruits the fast twitch muscle fibers and teaches your body how to operate at higher speeds, as well as pushes the limits of those higher speeds so that they reach even high speeds, thus at that point you are throwing harder. Your body also naturally develops good habits for throwing at higher velocities because your body is subconsiously doing all it can to fulfill this task (throwing the ball as far as possible) as efficiently and harmlessly (to the arm and body) as possible. If you could accomplish this off a mound or throwing on a line as well as you can by long tossing at full distance, it would certainly by the better option for the release point, pitching mechanics, etc. But you simply not forcing your body to throw at its highest speeds when you throw on a line or off a mound.

My son has been long-tossing for 5+ years now, and he has gone from being cut 5 years ago (due to poor arm strength) to being one of the highest-rated '08 pitchers in Washington State.

Of course, there's more: Proper mechanics, nutrition, core exercise, etc. It all fits together.

(P.S. LOW337.. I like your long-toss program, but I think it would help to use a pull-down phase, where after reaching max distance you get ever-closer until you are right back where you started. This helps keep a low release point. Read up on Jaeger's program.)


My problem with the no-long toss folks is invariably they use terms like "specificity of training", or advocate weighted balls, or other very complicated concepts and tools. Long-toss to them is so simple it must be wrong.

KISS. Keep it simple, stupid. As it is taught in science, the simplest solution is invariably the right solution. Long-toss.

Long toss can easily be misunderstood. For the people who think you should only throw as far as you can on a line and that throwing in an arc is bad, that is only half of the long toss. The stretching out phase of long toss involves more of an arc and less effort in the throw until the person reaches their farthest point. Once you can get as far as you can you begin the pull down phase. The pull down phase is what strengthens the arm and teaches the body to throw on a line from far away. What the pull down phase consists of is coming in closer after every throw and eventually using the same effort used in the longest throw and compressing that effort into a short throw by pulling down the release point. Everyone I know who has used long toss for an extended period of time has benefitted dramatically, including myself.

Why does long toss throwing need to be different than pitching? Why can't it simply be done from distances that at longer than the distance from the pitching rubber to home plate but not so long that different mechanics and timing must be used? Tom House recommends that pitchers do long toss only to a distance that they can still maintain proper mechanics. I tend to agree with this approach for players who are only pitchers. Players who play other positions - especially outfield - might still need to "air it out".

Roger Tomas,

LeftyCatcher is right. Read up on Jaeger's long-toss program. I believe he advocates airing it out.

All I can tell you is go to a major league or minor league game..most of the pitchers are using this approach.

My son long tosses 5x week in the off-season and he has gone from being an average pitcher a few years ago to one of the best in the state.
Here's his routine:

1) Flat-footed soft toss to partner 10ft away, 15-20 throws
2) Soft toss to partner 20 ft away, 5-10 throws, then move out every 5-10 throws extra 20 feet until reach maximum distance.
3) 5-10 throws at max distance
4) Pull down (reverse the process)

In "Pull Down" you'll initially notice the ball sail high. Throw hard, on a line, as you move in. The release point will get lower and you'll be hitting the mitt with pop. As you get real close to your partner in pull down be sure to lower the speed (reverse the process).

P.S. Don't do this until you've thrown 2-3 weeks.

One area that I feel that long toss really improves which I haven't seen discussed much here is in the area of proper throwing mechanics in general. When you pitch from a mound you can sometimes get away with poor timing and mechanics. When you throw from 150 feet away, those flaws are magnefied and are quickly felt by the thrower. A ball that misses its mark by six inches off a mound might be 4-5 feet off from a long distance. It is also a great way to work on getting movement on the ball, as well as working to get the fingers behind the ball to achieve maximum velocity. We have all of our players throw from 60 feet 15 throws. Back up 2 steps- 2 throws. Back up and 2 more throws. We do this until we are at about 150 feet and take 15 throws (nice and easy) then we back up until we have to bounce the ball and we bounce 5 on a line. We then work our way in 2 steps and 2 throws at a time until we are back at 60 feet all the while throwing on a line. This coupled with mound work has proven to work very well for our team.