Long toss debate

denis,

Cant speak to the comparisons - all I can say is that long toss helped both of my boys tremendously.

One an infielder - the other a pitcher.

In addition to arm strength - they have had zero problems with their arms since they began a regimented long toss program.

I do not agree with not long tossing. Just throwing bullpens puts more stress on the shoulder than long tossing does.

There are also different theories on long tossing as well. Some people promote throwing as far as you can, other promote limiting to a certain number of feet. Some promote pulling it down. Others do not. I think that most agree it is beneficial. My son's organization does.

I agree with a balanced approach, long toss improves the over all condition and arm strength of a player. To work on pithing control, pitching from the mound is where you work. Focus on just one thing leads to a player not being balanced, even pitchers.

I'm pro long toss. I often wondered why the long tossing works. I think it is effective because the actual distance acts as a major factor in the effort the pitcher exerts when he throws. Increase the distance and you increase your effort. Did anyone see the relief pitcher during the college world series warming up in the bullpen? He would start at the back of the mound and in essence was "long tossing" to the catcher.????
Fungo

Fungo,
Agreed. Jaeger believes that arm strengthening comes during the pulldown phase when the player is attempting to maintain the same level of effort they were using when throwing maximum distance while working their way in.

My thinking is more in line with yours. I think that maximum effort occurs when a player is trying to throw maximum distance. Very few players can consistently dial up maximum effort on the mound. We've all been trained to throw strikes (for a good reason) rather than throw as hard as possible off the mound.

Regardless, I believe that long toss has it's benefits. My son makes his best velocity gains each year after the season and after about 4 to 5 weeks of long toss and only limited bullpens. I can't prove that long toss is the reason but the pattern has been consistent each year.

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I often wondered why the long tossing works. I think it is effective because the actual distance acts as a major factor in the effort the pitcher exerts when he throws. Increase the distance and you increase your effort.

Fungo, I agree. I also believe that besides the increased effort, you have to use and increased arm speed. This is only my opinon, but my son throws for distance as opposed to throwing on the line and limiting the distance. My reasoning is this, if you are throwing as far as you can, to maximize your distance, you have to have arm speed. If you are only throwing 200 feet and on the line, the only way to judge effort would be with a radar gun. So, you really cannot see the improvement as consistently. I know that others see it differently, but that is the way I do it and the reason for the drill from my standpoint.

Jaeger came to UCLA two years ago and set them up with a throwing program and my son has stayed on the program. It has been excellent for him as he played 1st base for a year and a half and then this year was moved to 3rd base about half way through the season. His arm is the strongest it has ever been and he has not had a sore arm. My hat is off to Jaeger and his long toss program. I wish that more kids on the UCLA club had stayed with his throwing program.

I think a smart long toss program is the key to developing a great arm. Not to take away from the importance of other conditioning activities, which all have their place. In the process of stretching out the distance, a player works out what it takes to develop velocity. In fact, without the velocity the distance won't be there - I see a direct correlation. When my oldest got to where he could stand at one end of a football field and throw a baseball through the uprights at the other end, was about the time radar showed him throwing the ball in from the outfield low 90s.

I appreciate the replies thus far and hope there will be more. I should clarify, these aren't bullpen sessions, this is pitching in games for 3-4 innings every 3-5 days. This leaves no real time for long toss in between as that would be overkill.
This pitcher was told lack of velocity was only shortcoming and needed to spend summer getting stronger, not pitching more as he had already threw a career high in innings.

bbscout,
My son does his arm circles and arm bands before every time he throws. We're a bit lax on the arm bands and running afterward though I try to make sure he does it after practices.

He's been going to Alan's summer camp for the last 3 years. We're going to have problems getting the time in this year with vacation conflicts but we're going to try to get him there. We try to continue on from Alan's camp and stick with the long toss until it starts getting dark too early in the evening. The skinny little 13yo has now gotten where I can't throw his full distance anymore.

While you have been given the benefits and importance of a long toss program, my understanding is that your son is pitching now 3-4 innings every 3-5 days and wanted to know if long toss would be overkill?
So I showed my son your question and asked him what he would be instructed to do.
He indicated to me that during season his long toss (if any) is adjusted according to his pitching schedule. When he does toss he prefers longer distance, it changes accordingly. While that is what is prefered by him, others toss almost every day shorter distance. His last sentence was that it is tailored to the individual and what is comfortable with each one of them. Under your sons schedule, he might just toss every 4th day with no bull pen.
If your son is on that pitching schedule on a consistant basis this summer, the pitching coach might feel that he does not need the extra stress on the arm. Remember what works for some doesn't for others. Your son should be in pretty good shape if he was pitching and doing well this spring and probably is well conditioned for his schedule.
If you trust this coach and your son is doing well, listen to what he has to say.

I dont throw with mine anymore when we long toss. I give him a bucket of balls and he carries them with him as he goes back. I believe in long toss. There will always be debate about angle length amount etc. But there is no doubt about the benefit of a consistent long toss program. When my son was 13 he maxed out around 240'. As a 14 yr old he was around 270'. Now he has no problem going past the 300' mark and hits 315'. He likes to work out and then maxed out and then work back in. Around 60 throws. His arm seems to never get sore anymore or tight. His throws to second base are on a line no arc at all and seem effortless. His pop is a consistent 2.0 now and non game times are now under 2.0 around 1.95. This aint bad for a 15 year old rising Soph. His has gone from mid to upper 70's to mid 80's. I think it is very important for kids to have a passion to throw the ball. Love to throw and enjoy working at it. The same goes for hitting. There is no quick fix. Now miracle working devices. Its hard work and it takes time and you have to be consistent. And if you love to work at it you will enjoy the process. Now these gains have come during a big growth spurt. He has gone from 5'7 as a 8th grader to 6'1 as a rising soph. All while looseing around 15 pounds. I really think the running and plyos as well as all the lower body work in the weight room has helped alot as well. Its all part of the process.

Hmmm? To long toss or not? My son has been long tossing ever since he could raise his arm above his head. Living out in the country there is plenty of open spaces and he's always tried to impress ol dad with how far he can throw rocks. As he grew he also tried to impress me with his distance and accuracy trying to hit objects. He progressed to baseballs and considering we knew nothing back then about mechanics, and with no "guru" to follow, we must of done something right. Knock on wood, he's never had a sore arm and so far has done okay for himself. And yes, he still long tosses whatever he can get his hands on (baseballs, rocks, snowballs, etc).

The pro's play for a living and they long toss. Long toss improves velocity and arm strength if done with proper mechanics. It is also an excellent way to teach the change while keeping the fast ball arm speed.

My feeling about long toss is this. Just about anyone can THROW 60'6" and with poor mechanics. PITCHING starts with a good throwing motion. You can't throw the ball 300' with poor throwing mechanics. A flaw on the mound may result in a couple of inches, a flaw in long toss can be a few feet. We work our players back gradually and have them try to keep the ball on a line as much as possible. We back up 2 steps every 2 throws (once we are loose) until we can no longer reach our target, we bouce 5 from there, and then work our way in.

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We work our players back gradually and have them try to keep the ball on a line as much as possible.

Why?

Long toss is a personal thing IMO, and how you do it is personal too IMO. I liked to long toss on a line, because I felt I was getting more out of it. I long tossed high and far too, but could not get the umph that I wanted to feel. When tossing on a line, I tried to make it a contest with myself and increase my distance each time I tossed and felt like I was using my body and arm to it's max when I was throwing on a line, but did not feel like I was maxing out when I threw it high and with a big arc.
When I was young and first started, there were no radar guns, so I felt if I was throwing it on a line for about 150 ft and then increased it to 160 ft and so on, that I was building my velocity and indurance. The only way for me to test it and be confidant of the test was to throw it on a line to the best of my ability.

I believe in performing long toss, but NOT alone. I think long toss alone won’t do much to deal with stress cause in the shoulder, joins and arm. To strength the shoulders, joins and arm should include weigh training. Perform exercises that mimic the movement you do in baseball. Work to get arm strength, rotational strength and leg strength. Not to argue, just my humble opinion.

Bighit15,
The reason why we keep our throws on a line is to be consistent with our throwing mechanics. It does no good to work on pointing your shoulder to the target and and releasing the ball out in front if you long toss by leaning back and throw up in the air. Our goal is to strengthen in a game situation format. We never want to throw the ball high in the air but rather on a line. If we can be consistent with these mechanics from say 250 ft. then we can do very well at 60'6". And our outfielders will learn the value of a properly bounced ball as opposed to the wasted overthrow.

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It does no good to work on pointing your shoulder to the target and and releasing the ball out in front if you long toss by leaning back and throw up in the air.

I agree that standing there and throwing pop flies would be useless. That is not the same as long tossing as FAR as you can. What you describe is throwing as high as you can. Those are 2 different things in my opinion. If you are throwing as far as you can, you are still releasing out in front.

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We never want to throw the ball high in the air but rather on a line. If we can be consistent with these mechanics from say 250 ft. then we can do very well at 60'6".

I don't buy that arguement. The mechanics of throwing on a line from 250' in no way are the same as throwing fom a mound at 60'6. Unless of course, you are throwing from a pitching motion from a mound, but then you could not do that and throw 250'. It would mess up release point and mechancis.

When throwing 250' or 400', you are throwing on an arc. It is just less pronounced at 20 degrees than 35 degrees.

I would ask you how (at 250') do you judge the velocity, arm strength, arm speed, and mechanics? Do you use a radar gun? My point is this, at full distance (at the optimum arc of 35 degrees) you can see the improvement easily and receive feed back. You can see if it went on target, off target, short, etc. It gives you more feedback. When you get it right (distance and accuracy) you know it immediately.

You work on pitching mechanics in the bull pen. You use long tossing to strengthen the arm while using a proper throwing motion. jmo

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And our outfielders will learn the value of a properly bounced ball as opposed to the wasted overthrow.

I agree with that 100% for position players and those are drills that I would use as well. I would still have a program to strengthen arms as well as drills to teach proper play.

We also use the throw on the line method with our pitching program. We do that on the walk back in. From 400', we move up 20' and throw with a little less arc, another20' feet, etc. This is the pull down phase of the program. So essentially we do both in the sme program. I suppose it has a lot to do with what you are trying to accomplish. I am going for arm speed and strength, and it sounds like you are talking about drills for game situations. I understand that.

Bighit15,
It sounds as though you are using a very good method of long toss. Don't confuse my term of throwing on a line with no arc whatsoever. It is impossible to throw efficient long toss without a little arc to the ball. Our goal is to get away from the rainbow tossing that should only be used to loosen the arm and for rehabbing. As far as pitching mechanics and long toss; I want my players to be able to put a max effort and arm speed on the ball without losing good form. Things such as flying out with the front side, not using your legs, accelerating with the arm too early, and a good follow-through with the nose going to the front toe are all common to pitching as well as long-toss. When kids can do these things from a long distance it will help them when they get on the mound. These are just the things that we have found successful for our program. Obviously, there is always room for many methods in this area.

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Our goal is to get away from the rainbow tossing that should only be used to loosen the arm and for rehabbing.

Distance long tossing and rehab throwing are 2 different things. I am not talking about rainbow throwing or lobbing. I am talking about throwing as far as you can. You make your statement as an absolute. Where do you get that information?

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As far as pitching mechanics and long toss; I want my players to be able to put a max effort and arm speed on the ball without losing good form.

I agree with the above statement. I have heard the arguement that throwing hard will cost you your form, but this is the first time that I have heard the distinction that the arc you throw on will cost you your form. Unless I read it wrong. Whatever long toss method that you use (and both have benefit imo) is not the same exact mechanics as pitching. Yes, they are both throwing and most movements are the same, I don't see a correlation between which arc you use as being better for pitching than another. As long as you are doing you bull pen work you are getting your pitching work in. Long tossing for pitching is used for arm speed and arm strength. At least that is what I thought.

I am just curious about some of your assertions. I am not questioning your methods or what you feel is best for your team. I certainly have no problem with your drills or how you have had success with them. I am just trying to understand the dynamic between the 2 different methods and the "whys" of it.

I believe the more you throw the better you will be. ow pitchers are different than position players but the more they incorporate long toss and other methods the better they will be. I hear of all these training devices midicine balls weighted balls etc etc etc but when it comes down to it you still have to throw the ball.

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I hear of all these training devices midicine balls weighted balls etc etc etc but when it comes down to it you still have to throw the ball.

Well I doubt if you did not throw and only trained that you would be a good pitcher. That is obvious. By the same token, adding training to a good throwing program cannot hurt you, (notice I said a good program. I did not say a bad program) but it can help you. Thirty years ago coaches said weights were bad for you. Now everbody uses them. If you choose not to use other methods of training that is up to you, but let us not condemn what we don't understand. We are here to learn. Not to suppress new ideas unless they are bad or hurtful. jmo I digress, this was a longtoss debate. Let us get back to that. We weren't discussing other training methods. My apologies.

My experience is that most players don't throw with maximum effort unless they throw for maximum distance. You can't throw for maximum distance without a significant arc. It is those last few throws where the thrower tries to beat his best that lead to increased distance and the corresponding increase in velocity.

I just signed my son up for Jaeger's summer camp even though we'll be on vacation during the middle of it and he won't get full benefit. Even so it provides a good kickoff for our summer/fall long toss program. The big issue this year is going to be my adjusting to not being able to throw the ball as far as he does any more.

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The big issue this year is going to be my adjusting to not being able to throw the ball as far as he does any more.

No big issue. Buy a bucket of balls, u stand in one spot and he backs up until they start bouncing. That is what I have to do on anything over 100 feet. lol

Big,
The adjustment is because once I get on the field I can never admit that I can't throw it that far and I keep trying no matter how painful it gets. I max out at about 200' (with pain) these days and that just doesn't cut it.

My son needs to recognize my problem and increase his throwing distance enough that I'm no longer in the same ballpark distance wise so that I can give up gracefully and get it to him on three or four bounces.

Save a shoulder---- buy a baucket of balls.

Big,
Save it for what? This is probably the last summer that I'll get to spend this much time throwing with him so I'll try to make the best of it. BTW, I have a bucket of balls if needed.

CADad posted:

quote:

The big issue this year is going to be my adjusting to not being able to throw the ball as far as he does any more.

That was when I thought we might have a pitcher in the family. I shook my head and wondered how that little squirt could throw it farther than me. I think he was 12. Crow hops helped ...get me closer when I let go.

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Save it for what?

GRANDKIDS!