Long Toss Debate Reaches Wall Street Journal

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Originally posted by J H:
Sultan- Baseball players long tossed long before all of the recent studies.

How many HOF pitchers threw long toss? (any articles or quotes? or percentages, etc?)

I don't doubt that many outfielders threw medium to long distances.

Sultan we threw all the time. We didn't know we were long tossing but essentially that's what we were doing. Seeing how far we could throw the baseball and then stretching it out where we even had to put arc on the ball. I would imagine it was done a long time before I was ever around but I surely don't know for sure. Kids used to throw all the time in the yard or at the park. Then they started playing games all the time and well that's a whole different story.

How many of those hitters those HOF pitchers faced hit year round? How many of those hitters that faced those HOF pitchers had any real formal instruction outside of a hs coach? And what was his real experience in the game? In other words its all relative to the time period is all I am saying. The bottom line is from my experience the kids who learn the proper mechanics to throw at a young age and then long toss far and away have the better arms once in HS. Its not even close. In fact those other kids can't even warm up with those other kids. And the kids who complain the most of tired arms, sore arms are the one's who don't throw as much and then try to keep up in practice or workouts.

I am sure there exceptions to the rule. I just have not seen any that I have coached. If your trying to get to where you can bench press 300 lbs and thats your goal you can either find a weight your comfortable with and just do constant reps with that weight. Lets say 150. You can get to where you can bench 150 30 times. And then you can go for the 300 max. Or you can continue to work up to where you can bench 150 10 times. Then work on 185 10 times. Then 200 8 times. Then work up to 225 10 times. And continue to increase the weight as you get stronger. Who do you think will reach the 300 lb bench first?

Throwing the same distances with the same effort will not work the same way stretching it out and challenging yourself will. At least not from my experience. I have watched guys come off their long toss session and work back in. When they reach back to 60' its scary. They can hardly handle each other. They are throwing with the same effort it took to throw 300' but at 60'. They are training. They are pushing it out. They are getting better.

Now again this is just my opinion and I am not looking for a debate because I know what I have seen over the years and I know what has worked for my players. I also know what did not work for my players as well. If someone's experience over the years leads the to believe otherwise I am not going to debate them. Thats their experience. Mine has told me something totally different. Thats all really. I am just stating what my experience has shown me. Take it for what its worth.

It never occured to me that there are players out there that from the age the begin playing the game are not constantly testing their limits.

My guys always threw as far as they could and tried to push each other.

I just thought that was what throwing was all about...like throwing a rock into the lake...who can through it farther...

So did I FF. I can tell everyone one sure fire way to make sure you never hurt your arm throwing a baseball. Don't throw one. And you will never strike out if you don't hit as well.

There are alot of kids out there that will never experience the pain of this game. The same ones that will never experience the joy of it as well.

These strawmen are going to catch fire.

I know it might seem radical, but it's possible to throw from a mound (almost) every day. And throw hard. And test your limits.

I believe it is possible to throw hard from the mound and test your limits. I also believe how hard you can throw from the mound can be improved with long toss. If people don't agree with that its ok with me.

Coach May;

You are correct in your statements.

In your lifetime pitching BP, how many pitches have you thrown, maybe 20,000. I am at 21,000.

Never a sore arm, never "iced" and throwing daily BP with my Legion teams, our American teams to Japan, China, Korea and Australia and the Area Code games.

My favorite was BP throwing to Albert during our 1998 Area Code games.


Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
In fact those other kids can't even warm up with those other kids.

Very true, you can see it in the first 15 minutes of warm ups.

The only plausible reason I can think of for someone to doubt the benefits to be gained from a well planned & executed long toss program, is that they have never personally experienced it.

IMO, the same applies to those that don't believe in throwing or hitting darn near daily! Give fine motor skills a few weeks off and you will spend more than double that time getting back to that level of proficiency and conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The only plausible reason I can think of for someone to doubt the benefits to be gained from a well planned & executed long toss program, is that they have never personally experienced it.

LT is a cult?

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Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The only plausible reason I can think of for someone to doubt the benefits to be gained from a well planned & executed long toss program, is that they have never personally experienced it.

LT is a cult?

What?

Honestly Sultan sometimes I can't decide if you're legitimate or a troll. Posts like this make no sense to me.

JH, when you are an old **** like me, you will have seen hundreds of fads and cults come and go. Some (not on this thread) are going too far with unsubstantiated claims that LT is the magic potion to make Little Johnny throw 95 mph.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
JH, when you are an old **** like me, you will have seen hundreds of fads and cults come and go. Some (not on this thread) are going too far with unsubstantiated claims that LT is the magic potion to make Little Johnny throw 95 mph.

Not magic. Just plain old hard work.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
JH, when you are an old **** like me, you will have seen hundreds of fads and cults come and go. Some (not on this thread) are going too far with unsubstantiated claims that LT is the magic potion to make Little Johnny throw 95 mph.

I was at the park this weekend and watched a dad and his son playing catch. The kid was four years old at best. He was throwing gas and his dad was at least 6-8 feet away. I convinced the dad to tie his sons right hand behind his back, get him a lefty glove and start a LT program ASAP. Should be hitting the low 20's by fall.

Like bostonbulldogbaseball said, it all comes down to hard work on and off the field. Long toss alone is not going to make a player better on the mound, in the outfield, infield, etc. Most of your better baseball players work at the game each day. It could be something as simple as working changing pitching grips in the glove, jump rope, lifting weights, running sprints, BP, etc. Long toss (playing catch) should be PART of the routine, not THE routine.

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Not magic. Just plain old hard work.

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Long toss (playing catch) should be PART of the routine, not THE routine.