Long-toss debate shakes up MLB draft

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Shake up?...could also be that $30 Million figure...

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Does anyone have a list of which teams allow >120 feet for LT?

Nobody will know Bundy better than Bundy himself. If his regimen works, who are these teams to decide it don't.

As for playing for Pittsburgh, Bundy probably don't want to play there because they stink every year and one of the lowest payroll teams. He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

Certainly can't fault him for that.

One thing is for certain, this Bundy kid sounds like a doggone STUD. 18yr old throwing 100mph? Are you kidding me? wow. That is phenomenal.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Does anyone have a list of which teams allow >120 feet for LT?

As far as I am aware in son's organization you do what you feel comfortable with but you must toss. I never thought that any team had anything set in stone.
Since Lincecum came along, things have changed, I was under the assumption that teams improved upon the pitchers ability, but no complete overhauls.

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Originally posted by jdawg_24:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

Certainly can't fault him for that.

No, you can't. And a kid who can throw that hard, that much and wants the ball that much can pitch for me anyday.

When a player that has had that much success doing something they believe has contributed greatly to that success I can certainly understand their desire to be allowed to continue to do it.

120 feet isn't very far either...for someone throwing with that sort of velocity it's practically a flick of the wrist.

This has been a long-term debate that has been going on in pitching circles for quite some time. ASMI has done some studies on it that are more or less inconclusive. (from a medical standpoint) Jaeger Sports has been a proponent of LT for many years and has quite a following, then you have contrarian guys like Dick Mills who say no. MLB has been slow to adopt it since they have a lot of hard money sunk into pitchers so they don’t like to change what they have been doing unless they have some good evidence that it is beneficial. You are seeing more and more organizations allowing it now, and some more scientific work is being done in this area. I could see that if I was a player who had a lot of success using a method that he would be reluctant to change his approach. It is a difficult thing to measure since there are genetic reasons a kid throws 100MPH. You can’t take a kid and get him to LT and then suddenly change him into a 100MPH arm. It is a routine practice in many colleges now, so I think the MLB is slowly adapting. It does make an interesting story however when you have a 100MPH kid signing a $10M contract, and then want to significantly change his routine.

I think one of the critical benefits of long-toss is arm speed. To throw for distance you are forced to increase arm speed. Yes, you can have arm speed to throw 120 feet, but you are not forced to do so.

If you run, you can run for speed. But if a pit bull is chasing you, you are forced to run for speed!

Watched the kid a few times this year. He is absolutely incredible. He could probably tell a team that he only wanted to be drafted if they gave him a home in Italy and a 1952 Alfa Romeo Disco Volante and they would obey like ducks in a line. Never seen a talent like him.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
I think one of the critical benefits of long-toss is arm speed. To throw for distance you are forced to increase arm speed. Yes, you can have arm speed to throw 120 feet, but you are not forced to do so.

If you run, you can run for speed. But if a pit bull is chasing you, you are forced to run for speed!

Exactly Bum. I never understood the argument that LT doesn't help build strength, endurance and arm speed.

BUM, I think your two sentence explaination is the most concise explaination I have seen supporting LT. I used to say that it gave you a measurable way to see how you are progressing, but your is much better. Nice job.

Bum has posted on the benefits of long toss for a long time now. You can bet that when this topic comes up he is going to post in short order of the benefits of long toss. It's because he has seen the benefits of it and the success one can have with a solid lt program and a consistent approach. I am right there with him. I have seen what it can do and what it has done for several players. As the ability to throw from the goal line to the other 20 goes to the ability to throw from the goal line to the other goal line the velocity increase is recorded and seen. When that same kid can now throw from the goal line to the back of the end zone that velo increase comes as well.

I used to have a good arm. I could throw all day. I had no problem long tossing with some of the players. Then I started throwing bp all the time. Never stretching out my arm. Throwing from 40 45 feet every day. I tried to stretch my arm out and throw 90' and it felt like I was trying to throw 300. Watch a couple of guys who can really throw. Watch them go through a long toss routine. When they work back in and get to around 60 feet they almost can't catch each other. The ball is exploding out of their hands. They are throwing from 60' with the same effort and arm speed that it took to throw 300 plus feet.

If you want to increase arm speed and you want to increase velocity get on a serious long toss program and be consistent with it.

Bum and Coach May have nailed it. Long toss does help with velocity and arm speed. It's very beneficial and needs to be done.

Increased "strength" does not equal increased velocity.

Increased "endurance" does not equal increased velocity.

What can I do in 300 foot LT that I can't do on the mound? Other than learn a different motion?

LT allows you to learn to crow hop in order to flip your trunk over/around. You must learn to flip your trunk faster on the mound, without crow hopping. Only then will you increase your velocity on the mound.

I don't have any problem saying that LT is a good program for overall conditioning (and for outfielders), but to say it improves velocity on the mound is a stretch (pun intended).

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I don't have any problem saying that LT is a good program for overall conditioning (and for outfielders), but to say it improves velocity on the mound is a stretch (pun intended).

Sultan, I'm not one to argue but increased velocity is transferable I would bet, even if the mechanics to achieve it differ between LT and pitching.

I'd bet my money on the pitcher who can LT the farthest and achieves the highest velocity. Put em on the mound and I bet on that dude! Power is power. The reason they move strong armed non-hitting position players to the mound is precisely because that velocity DOES transfer.

There was a player on my son's summer collegiate team who routinely long-tossed with Bum, Jr. This kid has been doing it for years as well. You might know this young man, but if you don't you will soon.. his name is J.R. Graham and he was hitting 98 MPH off the mound. He will go in the upper rounds. Bum, Jr. said when he got to the pulldown phase of long-toss the ball exploded out of J.R.'s hand. Son said he wasn't scared to play catch with him but he d*** sure paid attention.

My son has been a long time "Long Toss" and Jaeger Program "J-Band" guy.

He (and I) have are true believers in the arm strength and arm health that the LT and J-Band program deliver.

But, you have to be consistent,.. nothing works without consistent work.

I never used to really believe in the benefits of long toss until the last year and a half or so. I have watched from the sidelines and watch as the kids throw farter and farther until they get maxed out and then start trying to throw on a line and you can really watch as the arm speed increases. That is waht it is all about- increasing the arm speed. A lot of kids do it wrong and think it's just a greater lob as they move farther apart. They don't realize the importance of trying to throw on the right angle stretching their arm out and then trying to throw more on a line.


It is true that the guys who can throw the farthest are the same guys who throw hardest off the mound. Before every pitch outing for my son he likes to do a mini little long toss going out to about 200 feet and throwing on a line from that distance for about 10 throws before he throws the pre-game bullpen.

It would seem rather strange to me that certain pitching staffs won't allow something as simple as long toss.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It would seem rather strange to me that certain pitching staffs won't allow something as simple as long toss.

I am not sure where anyone said that they do not allow their pitching staffs to long toss. That is misinformation.

Some have different programs than others, some just don't want them tossing the longer distances. The players were only making statements that unless they allowed them their particular program, they are not interested.

A pitcher should be tossing before his outing, what you state your son likes to do is required. Distances vary.

Long toss, benefits everyone.

If I remember correctly you began a topic where you were very opposed to LT, it was entitled Toss, versus Bullpen and building velocity. I see you have changed your mind. If you see kids doing it wrong, why not just teach them the right way instead of just helping the ones with elbow pain?

The ASMI study shows that long toss is a bit of a mix. Players actually throw just as fast when throwing flat ground on a line or even a tiny bit faster than they do throwing maximum distance.

The loads on the shoulder and elbow are a bit higher with maximum distance long toss.

On the other hand the body is in a less efficient position at release when long tossing so certain parts of the arm are forced to move a bit faster to get the same or similar velocity. It is possible that being able to move a bit faster with certain parts of the motion could translate to improvement in velocity over the long term even though the ball isn't being thrown any faster during maximum distance long toss.

Bottom line is that the loads are a bit higher so that there's some added risk when doing maximum distance long toss and there's the possibility that it does contribute to increased velocity for some players, but that is an extrapolation not a proven fact.

Risk vs. reward, take your chances as you see fit.

I have to go through the paper in a bit more detail. I want to see if they relate how they positioned the Stalker for the max distance long toss given the high release angle for max distance long toss. That could have possibly affected the velocity readings. If it isn't in the paper I'll ask them.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It would seem rather strange to me that certain pitching staffs won't allow something as simple as long toss.

I am not sure where anyone said that they do not allow their pitching staffs to long toss. That is misinformation.

Some have different programs than others, some just don't want them tossing the longer distances. The players were only making statements that unless they allowed them their particular program, they are not interested.

A pitcher should be tossing before his outing, what you state your son likes to do is required. Distances vary.

Long toss, benefits everyone.

If I remember correctly you began a topic where you were very opposed to LT, it was entitled Toss, versus Bullpen and building velocity. I see you have changed your mind. If you see kids doing it wrong, why not just teach them the right way instead of just helping the ones with elbow pain?

TPM,

How is the weather there in Florida?


At one point I was skepicle of LT as to whether it was required for building velocity or not. Honestly, I have seen some benefits to longtoss. I certainly haven't seen any negative effects of it.

Hopefully we can keep things civil here and not get in another strewn out debate over what I do wrong.

For the folks that LT, have you ever tried this...

LT for a few days and check radar readings. On the day that you show a 2-3 mph speed increase during the pull down phase, go to the mound and see if you are 2-3 mph faster.

Wouldn't this answer the question conclusively?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
For the folks that LT, have you ever tried this...

LT for a few days and check radar readings. On the day that you show a 2-3 mph speed increase via LT, go to the mound and see if you are 2-3 mph faster.

Wouldn't this answer the question conclusively?

I doubt it because LT isn't a few days thing. There has to be a significant amount of time given to it in order to see results.

Over a long period of time is when you will see the results.

what is the recommended routine for in season LT?

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The loads on the shoulder and elbow are a bit higher with maximum distance long toss.

Well isn't that the idea? When I was training my son to strengthen and injury proof his arm, we worked progressively to match and exceed game conditions so that his arm could handle the stresses of pitching. LT always seemed a natural part of that process.

It seems, some are saying do less, don't stress the poor little arm, elbow and shoulder joint. Really?

There are some trainers out there that must have this conditioning stuff all wrong? Train less to get stronger should be the cry. Save the arm, throw less, only so many bullets you know

It seems to me that I never hear long-toss is not good for pitchers. I only hear that there are different opionions on the distance. Has anyone heard anything wrong with 120 feet or so? Can we start with that and work through this debate?

BB13:

There is nothing wrong with 120'. Go back in the thread and read BUM's description. There lies your answer.

JT go to Jaegersports.com. Also search in youtube you will find some stuff.

Thank you. I will go back.

I think what Bum is saying is this:

"players who don't long toss got runned over by a pit bull."

To piggy-back on BOF:

Jaegersports has a 6 minute YouTube video that gives a very clear description of their long-toss program.

It has properly warmed up players work their way out to 300+ feet with an emphasis on keeping things loose and light and letting the arm stretch out. Once they reach max distance, they gradually decrease the distance while throwing with the same power they did at max distance. By the time they get back to 60', they're throwing scary fast.

My son became an instant convert when he started doing their program based just on that one video. He says it feels like he's doing exactly what his arm needs and wants.

quote:

It is true that the guys who can throw the farthest are the same guys who throw hardest off the mound.

GBM,
I understand the logic involved in the above, but sometimes it doesn't work that way. Probably due to the mechanics involved. It might be more accurate saying an outfielder who can throw the farthest should throw the hardest from the "outfield". It doesn't always transfer to the mound as we have seen many times.

PG, this is true, but if you combine long-toss with qualified pitching instruction that benefit will undoubtedly translate to the mound. With pitching there is that whole other buggaboo called the kinetic chain so in my book it takes both.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I think what Bum is saying is this:

"players who don't long toss got runned over by a pit bull."

lol. Or "Pit Bulls that long-toss can still get runned over."

I think a lot of the benefit of long toss comes from it being a substitute for the radar gun.

If you want to control or influence something, its important to be able to measure it, or at least get some feedback that's accurate. Long toss does that. It gives feedback, and sort of sets a goal for you, when your throws hit the ground at 83-85 yards, and you'd like to get to 90 yards.

Additionally, as long as you maintain the distance, it requires you to not let up. Letting up in the effort becomes explicit as you narrow the distance.

Obviously it's no substitute for being able to hit spots and have the movement you want, but its a very time effective way to help build and maintain power. And it gives instant, unbiased feedback about how you're doing with that.