Looking at called third strikes

I agree with you 100% that striking out looking iritates me to know end. However, consider 1 possible outcome of you new rule. If you are going to bench players that strike out looking you might get a lot of players going to far our of the 2 strike zone because they would rather swing at a bad pitch than get benched. What will happen then? I am not disagreeing with your philosophy just giving you something to think about.

TR:
I generally agree with this.

However: on a 3-2 count (you know the one where the umpires yell "thirty-two" and hold up two closed hands) and the hitter watches a marginal pitch, that is about a 50-50 ball or strike - isn't it OK to take that pitch?

Half the time you'll get rung up, meaning you will be on base 50% also. And depending on the type of pitch and the exact location, it may not be a pitch that can reliably be hit for a base hit - so the on-base percentage from swinging could well be way below 50%.

Obviously this all depends on the situation. But I think it argues against a hard and fast rule on backward K's.

Guys---it may teach them to learn how to foul off the margin pitches---look at Damon's final at bat last nite.

I will tell you that it made them very aggressive at the plate--they are all good enough hitters to make it work

I sympathise with you, TRhit, as I had one kid do the same exact thing twice yesterday. But, I can't agree with a one size fits all approach to fix it - primarily for the reasons that Rob and socallhscoach discuss.

One of the things that I've really been working with my kids on is their approach to hitting based on the count. In the past, I've had too many kids ground out on a a first pitch strike that is low and away. When I asked them why they swung at that pitch, the inevitable answer was that "it was a strike." But then when I ask if they thought they could get a good swing on it and really do something with it, the answer was "no, but it was a strike."

I've finally got some of them to understand with no strikes on you, you are very selective about what you swing at - only swing at a pitch in your zone that you can drive. With one strike, you get a little less selective, but are still looking for something to drive. With two strikes, you are protecting the plate. If the pitch is close, and you think you can do something with it, then have at it. If it's close and you don't think you can do anything with it, then foul it off. If you think it's a ball, then leave it alone and try and work the count back in your favor.

Now, I have two kids that are to the point where they are very good at doing the above. They work the count and are very selective as to what they swing at (and their average and OBP show it). If they have strikes to give and can't hit it hard, they'll leave it alone. If they've got two strikes, they try and work toward one they can put in play or they foul off pitch after pitch until they get what they are looking for. Occasionally, they take a called third strike trying to get the count back in their favor. When it happens, we don't say a word to them about it. Sometimes you get the call, sometimes you don't.

But, some of our other free-swinging hackers who don't have that plate discipline or who haven't proven that ability get a "talking to" over to the side about their approach at the plate. If it continues, they get moved down in the line-up. If it doesn't get any better, they get sat down for awhile.

Yes, we treat some kids different based on the situation, and I really think that's the way it has to be. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Keep in mind that our team is all HS juniors and seniors so they are pretty fair country hitters

No doubt, Coach TRhit that your guys are at a completely different hitting level than mine (13U), but I still that all the kids shouldn't necessarily be treated the same in that situation.

Have you ever read the book "Moneyball"? While there wasn't much discussion on watching third strikes go by, there was a lot on plate discipline and the value of a walk - kind of along the line of what Rob Kremer said earlier. If you haven't read it, it's a pretty interesting read.

Another thing that drives me crazy is looking at a fastball right down the middle in a 0-0 count.
I'm related to a young man that does this way too often

Some kids are guess hitters and they just can't pull the trigger when they don't get what they were looking for. I don't mind looking for a particular pitch early in the count, or ahead in the count, but once you get two strikes, that approach has to be shelved.

The big thing you have to watch for is that too much negativism about "don't swing unless it's a strike" leads to a mindset where the kid is sometimes hesitant to swing. His thinking is, "Don't swing unless it's good," and by the time he really knows for sure it's in the mitt already.

I try to combat this with a mindset that says, "Swing until it leaves the zone." That way the batter stays in his stance, goes through his trigger action and gets his front foot down so that he can actually attack the strike.

The key is to start from the presumption you're going to swing so that the kid doesn't get "the paralysis of analysis" while the pitch is in flight.

While I think you have to take action if you are giving explicit orders and they are not being followed, I would leave myself wiggle room to let a kid off the hook if the umpire makes an absurd call. I saw a kid in Jupiter get rung up on a ball at the ankles, another one on a ball about a foot outside. I can't blame them for taking those pitches.

To me, it is pretty tough for a hitter to be aggressive with 2 strikes, The further up the level of competition, the harder it is to be aggressive.
While I can appreciate the efforts to deliver a message, I think I would want to know the type of instruction on a 2 strike approach that came before swing or sit.
Are the kids taught to spread out, shorten up, be short/quick to the ball, have an approach with 2 strikes with a bigger zone, and take the ball where it is pitched? Are they coached when the situations arise?.
Hitting, to me, is all about being confident and being relaxed. Hitting with 2 strikes involves even more being confident and relaxed.
Confidence comes from having an approach with 2 strikes that has been successful. The more success with 2 strikes, the more confidence.
The opposite is equally true.
Hitting with 2 strikes comes from an approach that is taught and reinforced before the game situations occur. Teaching and re-emphasizing it in game situations is a must. Just my views.
If you have done the coaching that you think is needed, and they don't do it, that is a different issue. I would have them sit, but the next game.

I tell my players, "with two strikes, never trust the guy behind the catcher."

We preach to hit the fastball down the opposite field line so that we can hopefully hit the offspeed up the middle. Just trying to get the timing as late as possible. We are still preaching "fastball...adjust."

It is something we work on in practice because I agree with you infielddad, game time is the time for them to hit, not to be taught a new concept.

One method for 2 strike hitting that works for many HS hitters is the mindset to hit everything to the opposite field. Most HS pitchers aren't that good at consistently pitching inside and their "out pitch" tends to be on the outside corner/off the plate. That, and the fact the catcher is drilled "don't give them anything good to hit. Be smart out there." You end up with most teams working the outside part of the plate or out of the strikezone and trying to get the hitter to chase something. Get an inside FB... you fight it off the best you can and hope the pitcher makes a mistake which is usually the type of pitch that becomes a basehit.

Hitting with the mindset of going opposite field with everything helps HS hitters stay back a bit longer and perhaps see the pitch better. Not even hinting that this approach is a cure all at the MLB level but I know it works in HS pretty well and fairly good in college.

Learning how to use the batters box to their advantage can also help hitters make adjustments based on what the pitcher has been doing that at bat/day and the count. Getting in the very back of the box helps some; standing a few inches farther off the plate helps others. Neither will help hit the curve...but if it is a good curve nobody is going to hit that anyway (the curves that get hit ain't good curves, they're mistakes hung up in the zone plain and simple 90% of the time) and you tip your hat to the pitcher because it won't matter where you stand in the box.

You start an at-bat with a plan but with 2 strikes your orginal plan ain't really working. You have to make an adjustment (quickly)that works for you and then be aggressive with it. Usually hitters try to own the inner half of the plate as part of their plan as they know outside pitches are harder to hit or drive; with 2 strikes you can maintain that approach or make an adjustment to how you can best maximize plate coverage and the pitch locations you can handle. No, you will not be able to handle the entire plate ( your initial game plan didn't allow for that either) so play the percentages; you can take middle to outside pitches opposite field easily enough if you stay inside the ball. You'll usually be able to foul off most inside pitches.

Great..now we have a 2 strike hitting plan. All that and the realistic probability of getting a hit maybe 2-3x out of 10 if the plan works. Heaven help you if the pitcher got the first two strikes with FB's on the inner half because he gave you what you wanted and you still blew it.LOL.

While the 2 strike hitting plan may not be "aggressive" itself, the approach to the swing better be aggressive in that you better be ready to put a good swing on anything that you think you can reach. I don't want real "selective" hitters with 2 strikes...I want hitters that are still trying to attack the pitch with their "new" plan. I absolutely do not like seeing tentative, wave at the pitch swings with 2 strikes at the HS level.

JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
TR:
I generally agree with this.

However: on a 3-2 count (you know the one where the umpires yell "thirty-two" and hold up two closed hands) and the hitter watches a marginal pitch, that is about a 50-50 ball or strike - isn't it OK to take that pitch?

When I played college ball, back before personal computers, that was the pitch we were expected to take to the oppsite field. If we allowed the umpire, (although I never saw one in the old PCAA who signaled as you suggest) decide our fate on that pitch, we would be running late into the evening.

Back in high school, me and my best friend were the studs on the baseball team. We were the only ones who could hit for power (5-7 HRs per 20 game season), hit for average and steal bases (both 6.8 runners).

We both drastically reduced our swing with two strikes because we felt as though we were fast enough to beat out almost any groundball in the IF. We simply focused on not striking out. I think he and I struck out 3 times our senior season (about 120 ABs between the two of us).

I don't necessarily recommend this approach to everyone, but it worked for us.

I wouldn't want a real bopper turning all punch and judy on me nowadays. I'd rather he try and hit a double opposite field with two strikes.

Bruce


Press the button and sing it!

quote:

I instituted a new rule and my staff was directed not to rescind it--you strike out looking you are out of the game, right then and there--

Seems kind of drastic. with all due respect why not take a kid out of the game if he swings at a bad pitch or he makes an error or if the pitcher walks a guy.

You can do everything right and get rung up looking with two strikes. It happens. I dont want my players swinging at a pitch out of the zone on any count. If its close then attack it. But there are times when you just get a bad call.

Hitters have to learn not to feel pressure with two strikes. They need to understand the situation but not get caught up in the situation. Relax and hit and dont worry about striking out. I think Midlo's post pretty much sums up my philosophy as well.

Will


They were looking at fastballs right down the gut----it just got to be too much----and the threat worked---they got aggressive and in most cases the strike count never got to two strikes

quote:

When I played college ball, back before personal computers, that was the pitch we were expected to take to the oppsite field. If we allowed the umpire, (although I never saw one in the old PCAA who signaled as you suggest) decide our fate on that pitch, we would be running late into the evening.

What if the pitch is off the inside part of the plate? How do you take that oppo?

I would define a "marginal strike" as a pitch that has a 50-50 chance of being called. So by taking that pitch, the hitter has a .500 on base percentage. As a coach, why would you make kids run all night who were producing .500 OBA with two strikes in the count?

A hitter that looks at a 3-2 count as "Oh shoot I got two strikes on me." Or a hitter that looks at a 3-2 count as "Oh shoot he is in trouble. If he doesnt throw me a strike I am on. If he does I am going to hammer."

The key is getting your hitters to have that second mind set and not the first. Then it all takes care of itself.

Learning to let a pitch travel a bit deeper and foul off a marginal pitch is a great skill to learn. Learning that skill and maintaining the ability to jump on an inside pitch is a great separator

Coach May: