Former number 1 player kevin koziol is not on LSU's roster anymore? did he transfer?
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There's some info about this in the Local Boys thread. Check out page four near the bottom.
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There's some info about this in the Local Boys thread. Check out page four near the bottom.
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I don't see Andrew Holt from Bloomington Central on Creightons roster, any idea where he is? I did google it this time and found nothing.
http://www.nola.com/lsu/index....eshman_infielde.html
Hope I'm not crossing any lines by posting the link. It is such a hard lesson to learn for these kids. Hopefully, our kids can use this as further education that just because they are in college at a dream baseball school doesn't mean they don't have to follow the rules.
I find the comments on this article interesting and think it's worthy of discussion here. Immediate removal from the team too harsh?
Hope I'm not crossing any lines by posting the link. It is such a hard lesson to learn for these kids. Hopefully, our kids can use this as further education that just because they are in college at a dream baseball school doesn't mean they don't have to follow the rules.
I find the comments on this article interesting and think it's worthy of discussion here. Immediate removal from the team too harsh?
Nothing wrong with posting links to news stories.
Too harsh??? very good debate topic. We live in a society where our leaders tell us we need to be zero tolerance. Toss the bums out. You had your chance, now scram.
No one is allowed to make a mistake. Except of course our leaders who make such policies.
I like to think laws and policies should be considered under the "good neighbor" policy. Is this the way you would want your neighbor to treat you, or are you comfortable putting the hammer down on your neighbor? If the answer is no, then the result is probably too harsh.
I thank God every day that life ain't fair, because if it were, I'd be screwed.
Too harsh??? very good debate topic. We live in a society where our leaders tell us we need to be zero tolerance. Toss the bums out. You had your chance, now scram.
No one is allowed to make a mistake. Except of course our leaders who make such policies.
I like to think laws and policies should be considered under the "good neighbor" policy. Is this the way you would want your neighbor to treat you, or are you comfortable putting the hammer down on your neighbor? If the answer is no, then the result is probably too harsh.
I thank God every day that life ain't fair, because if it were, I'd be screwed.
quote:I find the comments on this article interesting and think it's worthy of discussion here. Immediate removal from the team too harsh?
IMO, yes. This is an 18 or 19 yr old kid. Kids make mistakes..
If this isn't his 1st incident, then its a different story.
There are other ways to handle this situation and set an example other than to boot the kid and not try to help him see what he did was wrong and could have had worse consequences.
I admire the coach's audacity, honestly. It wouldn't shock me if perhaps sometime down the road he's playing collegiate baseball again, but if I were on charge I would not let on to him that that is a possibility.
As to some of the speculation of further back story on this individual, I won't say much. All I'll say is that there would be some that aren't surprised.
Deserving of the punishment or not, I hate seeing a young guy like this getting all this negative attention. He'll almost literally never escape it. He better hope that future employers don't google his name.
As to some of the speculation of further back story on this individual, I won't say much. All I'll say is that there would be some that aren't surprised.
Deserving of the punishment or not, I hate seeing a young guy like this getting all this negative attention. He'll almost literally never escape it. He better hope that future employers don't google his name.
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Good for you JPontiac. You know the ropes. That will serve you well.
Say hello to Coach Cleanthes for me. Thanks.
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Good for you JPontiac. You know the ropes. That will serve you well.
Say hello to Coach Cleanthes for me. Thanks.
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JPontiac,
You're a freshman in a college baseball program. Can you tell us what kind of rules or expectations you've been given at your school?
If you were to be arrested for DUI, would you expect to be let go or would there be several levels if discipline?
You're a freshman in a college baseball program. Can you tell us what kind of rules or expectations you've been given at your school?
If you were to be arrested for DUI, would you expect to be let go or would there be several levels if discipline?
I'll bet the fact that he hadn't played a regular season game yet for the school didn't help his situation... My two cents.
Wish him well and he gets past this. As someone said it's fortunate no one was hurt.
My guess is this was a rather unique circumstance and he was on double secret probation when he
arrived.
Not embarrassing school and program is a constant message.
My guess is this was a rather unique circumstance and he was on double secret probation when he
arrived.
Not embarrassing school and program is a constant message.
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Indeed.
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- "Wish him well"
Indeed.
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quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
I admire the coach's audacity, honestly.
I won't say whether audacity played a role here or not, but there's a saying in medicine...when you hear hoofsteps, think horses not zebras. It means, look for the easiest and most obvious answer, much like Occam's razor.
Booting him off the team is the quickest, easiest way of dealing with the issue. It's the path of least resistance.
Rather than going the more difficult route of designing a punishment & support system to help the young man, boot him out on his arse and make him someone else's problem.
It's the easiest, most obvious answer and does not require audacity. It speaks to me of a big time coach at a big time school that treats his players like pieces of meat, a commodity, not a person. Get out and let me find someone else. I'm not naive enough to believe that this isn't the rule rather than the exception.
Igball could have it right, that the kid was already on notice, we just won't know, I suppose. This is a case where one thing happens and two people see it completely differently.
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Especially when they're looking in different directions!
- "two people see it completely differently"
Especially when they're looking in different directions!
it is always sensitive when talking about players. All I feel comfortable saying is I am not going to critisize the coach and I beleive in second chances.
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Well said bballdad1954. If correct choices are made from here on out then things should be alright going forward.
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Well said bballdad1954. If correct choices are made from here on out then things should be alright going forward.
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quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
JPontiac,
You're a freshman in a college baseball program. Can you tell us what kind of rules or expectations you've been given at your school?
If you were to be arrested for DUI, would you expect to be let go or would there be several levels if discipline?
My coach certainly believes in second chances. Now, when he says this, I have a feeling he isn't thinking about players being arrested for DUI's. We have had players get in trouble with campus safety, maybe get talked to by cops at off campus parties, but to my knowledge there have been no serious legal issues like this particular situation in the past.
The lack of spelled out, specific rules handed down from Coach has a reason behind it, I think. For one, every single situation is different. I can understand the desire to evaluate every situation individually. Also, we're adults and should have a sense of right and wrong. We know we shouldn't get any Alcohol Violations, for instance. If we know in advance that, well, I can get 3 AV's before being kicked off the team, how big of a deal does that first one feel like? I think the ambiguity serves to make us really evaluate our decisions based on our own knowledge of what is right instead of measuring it against someone else's written standard.
If anyone might get a second chance for DUI, I would probably be one of them that might get a chance since I'm one (like the majority of players) that hasn't had to take advantage of my coach's forgiving nature.
There's also the understanding that being on the team is what you're begging for when arrested for a DUI or facing any discipline issue. As stated, playing time on the team is certainly going to be basically non-existent with serious discipline problems like this.
I realize I came off as a real hardass in my first post. To explain, I don't think the coach can really be in the wrong to get rid of a player who has such a serious legal issue facing him. I do think that sometimes it is okay to conditionally retain/suspend/something of that sort for a player in this situation. The slope is much more slippery though, and this really emphasizes the need for case by case evaluation because not every player deserves this shot.
CPLZ,
I don't see any reason to assume that this was an easy decision for the coach or that he considers his players pieces of meat. It might have been clear, but I doubt it was easy.
It is true that a player who is part of a top-ranked signing class of 19 players had better realize he's not indispensable and stick to the straight and narrow, but we don't know enough about this situation to make any informed criticism of this extremely well respected coach.
We don't know what the specific team rule was, how it was communicated, whether the player had previous attitude or conduct problems, how similar situations have been handled in the past, or what kind of pressure the school is putting on coaches to crack down on alcohol abuse.
In every line of work, there are some offenses that you know just will not be forgiven. If you're a teacher who gets involved inappropriately with a student, a financial advisor who co-mingles client funds, or a mate on a fishing boat who discharges oil overboard, you know it's one strike and you're out.
If underage drinking or DUI is one of those rules at LSU or if the player had already been on the carpet for other issues or if the player had signed a standards of conduct pledge that spelled out these consequences, then the coach really didn't have much choice, no matter how much he had invested in or cared for the player. He has 34 other players, a university, and the parents of next year's recruits to think about, too.
Hope the young man picks himself up, comes out of this wiser, and finds a new opportunity.
I don't see any reason to assume that this was an easy decision for the coach or that he considers his players pieces of meat. It might have been clear, but I doubt it was easy.
It is true that a player who is part of a top-ranked signing class of 19 players had better realize he's not indispensable and stick to the straight and narrow, but we don't know enough about this situation to make any informed criticism of this extremely well respected coach.
We don't know what the specific team rule was, how it was communicated, whether the player had previous attitude or conduct problems, how similar situations have been handled in the past, or what kind of pressure the school is putting on coaches to crack down on alcohol abuse.
In every line of work, there are some offenses that you know just will not be forgiven. If you're a teacher who gets involved inappropriately with a student, a financial advisor who co-mingles client funds, or a mate on a fishing boat who discharges oil overboard, you know it's one strike and you're out.
If underage drinking or DUI is one of those rules at LSU or if the player had already been on the carpet for other issues or if the player had signed a standards of conduct pledge that spelled out these consequences, then the coach really didn't have much choice, no matter how much he had invested in or cared for the player. He has 34 other players, a university, and the parents of next year's recruits to think about, too.
Hope the young man picks himself up, comes out of this wiser, and finds a new opportunity.
Nicely said, Swampy.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JPontiac:
As to some of the speculation of further back story on this individual, I won't say much. All I'll say is that there would be some that aren't surprised.
QUOTE]
After talking to some players of that age, I'm gonna have to agree with the statement above. A few years ago we had a similar situation with a pitcher that was a top level pick that couldn't play his senior year. Same background. It appears these kids think they are bigger than life. I know we all did dumb things when we were that age but I'm not sure if I would have acted any differenlty if I had the talent and the opportunities they have today.
As to some of the speculation of further back story on this individual, I won't say much. All I'll say is that there would be some that aren't surprised.
QUOTE]
After talking to some players of that age, I'm gonna have to agree with the statement above. A few years ago we had a similar situation with a pitcher that was a top level pick that couldn't play his senior year. Same background. It appears these kids think they are bigger than life. I know we all did dumb things when we were that age but I'm not sure if I would have acted any differenlty if I had the talent and the opportunities they have today.
I think things worked out pretty well for the pitcher.
where does he go from here? are there any schools that accept kids who have gotten DUIs? or is his career pretty much over?
He goes to a juco, gets good grades, and puts up good numbers, and he will get another chance.
We would not be having this discussion if this young man T-Boned another car as he ran the red light…….. Thank GOD he didn’t injure himself or someone else!
Driving while under the influence is a serious crime that has serious consequences. Alcohol related crash fatalities account for 36% of fatal crashes nationally and 39% in the Illinois. If he had injured or killed another individual while operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, the crime becomes a felony - getting dismissed from LSU’s baseball team would have been the least of his problems. Thank GOD the police stopped him.
Drunk driving is a CRIME. At a minimum, DUI is a Class A misdemeanor that carries a potential jail sentence of up to 364 days in the State of Illinois.
http://www.cyberdriveillinois....cations/dsd_a118.pdf
I admire Coach Mainieri for taking a stand. I believe what he did was courageous and very hard. However, I also believe that this young man left him no alternative…. Any bet the next LSU Baseball Player thinks twice before getting behind the wheel of a car after consuming alcohol.
I think this is a great opportunity to educate the HSBBWeb just how serious the crime of drunk driving is……….
CALL A CAB!!!!!!!!
GO TITANS!!!!!!
Driving while under the influence is a serious crime that has serious consequences. Alcohol related crash fatalities account for 36% of fatal crashes nationally and 39% in the Illinois. If he had injured or killed another individual while operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, the crime becomes a felony - getting dismissed from LSU’s baseball team would have been the least of his problems. Thank GOD the police stopped him.
Drunk driving is a CRIME. At a minimum, DUI is a Class A misdemeanor that carries a potential jail sentence of up to 364 days in the State of Illinois.
http://www.cyberdriveillinois....cations/dsd_a118.pdf
I admire Coach Mainieri for taking a stand. I believe what he did was courageous and very hard. However, I also believe that this young man left him no alternative…. Any bet the next LSU Baseball Player thinks twice before getting behind the wheel of a car after consuming alcohol.
I think this is a great opportunity to educate the HSBBWeb just how serious the crime of drunk driving is……….
CALL A CAB!!!!!!!!
GO TITANS!!!!!!
Smokey,
I wouldn't rush to judgment here and assume he ignored the option of calling a cab. Maybe he couldn't call a cab because there was no overnight parking, which would make his driving under the influence more a understandable decision.
I wouldn't rush to judgment here and assume he ignored the option of calling a cab. Maybe he couldn't call a cab because there was no overnight parking, which would make his driving under the influence more a understandable decision.
LostZeal,
BOLLOCKS!
I’m not rushing to judgment or assuming anything. I’m addressing the fact that this young man (and I quote) – “was arrested early Sunday morning and booked into East Baton Rouge Parish Prison at 3:51 a.m. He was charged with reckless operation of a vehicle and disobeying a red light.” And then (and I quote) –“ dismissed from the team after his arrest for driving while intoxicated during the weekend, Coach Paul Mainieri said Monday.”
I don’t care who you are – there is NO legitimate reason for getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol – NONE!
Driving drunk is NEVER (and I quote you now) an “understandable decision” – NEVER!
Coach Paul Mainieri gets it…… I hope you get clued in as well.
BTW – Never assume. When you assume – you make and “A$$” out of “U” and “ME”…….
Teammates don’t let teammates drive drink!
BOLLOCKS!
I’m not rushing to judgment or assuming anything. I’m addressing the fact that this young man (and I quote) – “was arrested early Sunday morning and booked into East Baton Rouge Parish Prison at 3:51 a.m. He was charged with reckless operation of a vehicle and disobeying a red light.” And then (and I quote) –“ dismissed from the team after his arrest for driving while intoxicated during the weekend, Coach Paul Mainieri said Monday.”
I don’t care who you are – there is NO legitimate reason for getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol – NONE!
Driving drunk is NEVER (and I quote you now) an “understandable decision” – NEVER!
Coach Paul Mainieri gets it…… I hope you get clued in as well.
BTW – Never assume. When you assume – you make and “A$$” out of “U” and “ME”…….
Teammates don’t let teammates drive drink!
quote:Originally posted by Smokey:
Any bet the next LSU Baseball Player thinks twice before getting behind the wheel of a car after consuming alcohol.
I'd take that bet. It's well known that punishments do not serve as deterrents. On top of that, you are expecting someone under the influence, legally drunk, to consider consequences and history of reprisal to deter him/her from using bad judgment. Doesn't work like that.
The whole idea that we need to sacrifice some to teach the others the lessons so they don't make the same mistake is an argument that throughout history has proven itself to be folly.
Zero tolerance, tough guy stances are in place for one reason. It's the easiest way for administrators/coaches/whoever, to deal with the problem without the situation coming back to bite them and it relieves them of actually having to do anything. It's amazing that we pay these guys (administrators) so much money and in return they make rules that take administration out of their hands. If everything has a policy, and no one ever has to use their judgement, what do we need an administrator for? At that point, we could get by with a clerk.
Even with the dismissal, LSU is currently 3 players over the roster limit and need to trim further.
My comments are not reflective of the seriousness to which DUI affects our society. It was about how our policies are out of touch with reality and how easily we can praise some coach for tossing a player out like yesterdays trash instead of dealing with the problem and trying to help a kid become a better person a learn from it.
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What is lacking is the full and complete story. I think every opinion here, so far, has been well reasoned and valid given the amount of information we know...and don't know.
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What is lacking is the full and complete story. I think every opinion here, so far, has been well reasoned and valid given the amount of information we know...and don't know.
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Ditto what Gotwood said. As much as you can assume that it's zero tolerance thing you could also assume it's a strike three your out situation.
Yes do we have the full and complte story? No, ands the question I would have is would one of the starters been treated the same?
I think we will never really know what happenned nor should we as it should stay between the family and the school. However just wondering as other posters have would the action had been so severe if the boy in question would of been a 2nd or 3rd year player who is a big contributor. Additionally, I saw nothing mentioned about the boy having a fake ID but unless the drinking age in Louisiana is 18 or 19 he may of had a fake ID to get into a bar. Again speculation but could the use of a fake ID also contributed to a quick dismissal. However if he didn't have a fake ID and he was attending a house party I'm wondering if any of his underage team mates were there and if he took the fall from the coach because he was the only one busted. As one poster already pointed out and correctly so he is young and hopefully has the strength to recover from this error with or without baseball in his future and fortunatly he didn't harm himself or anyone else when he got behind the wheel.
Great discussion here. CPLZ is quite harsh in his critique but it does really make you think. I never thought the "zero tolerance" rules were the easy way for administrations to relieve their problems. But CPLZ sure makes a good argument.
And, sorry LostZeal, but (to borrow the old SNL skit) Really ? Really? "Oh man, they don't allow overnight parking here so I better get behind the wheel wasted and maybe kill myself and other people cuz I don't want my car towed." Really ??
But what I'm really impressed with is the maturity and eloquent writing of JPontiac. I had no idea J was a college freshman. What an astute and well written young man. Bravo JP !!!
And, sorry LostZeal, but (to borrow the old SNL skit) Really ? Really? "Oh man, they don't allow overnight parking here so I better get behind the wheel wasted and maybe kill myself and other people cuz I don't want my car towed." Really ??
But what I'm really impressed with is the maturity and eloquent writing of JPontiac. I had no idea J was a college freshman. What an astute and well written young man. Bravo JP !!!
Lost Zeal,
With all due respect, I think you may have lost your mind.
Speak to someone who has lost a loved one to a drunk driver, and maybe you will get some perspective on the matter..
Regarding the coaches decision.. I think many of the country's top Division 1 programs would have reacted the same. First contribution to the program from an out-of-state freshman player is a DUI?
You're gone.
I also don't think rehabilitation is in the coach's job description. That responsibility lies elsewhere. And while I hope against hope that I never have to deal with this or any similar issue personally, I certainly wouldn't put in on the coach for whatever action he determined was appropriate. And I can only hope that punishment is some type of deterrent, whether handed down from a parent, school or other person of authority. If actions have no consequences we are all in trouble.
The bottom line is this. Bad decision. Punishment determined and handed down. Deal with it, learn from it (hopefully) and move on.
With all due respect, I think you may have lost your mind.
Speak to someone who has lost a loved one to a drunk driver, and maybe you will get some perspective on the matter..
Regarding the coaches decision.. I think many of the country's top Division 1 programs would have reacted the same. First contribution to the program from an out-of-state freshman player is a DUI?
You're gone.
I also don't think rehabilitation is in the coach's job description. That responsibility lies elsewhere. And while I hope against hope that I never have to deal with this or any similar issue personally, I certainly wouldn't put in on the coach for whatever action he determined was appropriate. And I can only hope that punishment is some type of deterrent, whether handed down from a parent, school or other person of authority. If actions have no consequences we are all in trouble.
The bottom line is this. Bad decision. Punishment determined and handed down. Deal with it, learn from it (hopefully) and move on.
Don't discount the notion that the program may be using this opportunity to get back a large percentage scholarship from a player who wasn't considered in the mix to start and make it look like they are "doing the right thing"
quote:Originally posted by LostZeal:
Smokey,
I wouldn't rush to judgment here and assume he ignored the option of calling a cab. Maybe he couldn't call a cab because there was no overnight parking, which would make his driving under the influence more a understandable decision.
I don't think the decision to drive drunk is the question. Trust me, I know, there is no possible way to make a good decision while intoxicated.
The problem is he didn't make the proper decision BEFORE that point. #1, a bad decision to drink alcohol as a minor. #2, if you can somehow rationalize that #1 is not a bad decision, then he should have thought ahead as to how he was going to get home. Or maybe set a limit of three beers before calling it a night.
The simple fact is this situation goes far far beyond a baseball diamond and one kid's side-tracked career. Because of the publicity this situation recieved and the impact it may have on some young people's future decisions, there very well could be people alive in the not so distant future who wouldn't be if not for the coach's decision in this matter. This statement may come across as melodramatic but I also think its true.
Again best wishes to the young man involved but he's not a victim of anything other than a very bad decision that he made and not all lessons are painless.
Again best wishes to the young man involved but he's not a victim of anything other than a very bad decision that he made and not all lessons are painless.
quote:Originally posted by il2008:
Ditto what Gotwood said. As much as you can assume that it's zero tolerance thing you could also assume it's a strike three your out situation.
Entirely correct. Which was the basis for my original point, look for the most obvious answer and most times you'll be right. To me, the most obvious answer is not that the coach is some stand up guy trying to teach the harsh lessons of life to a wayward kid. It's about meeting the expedient needs of a top ranked program, having administration policies in place to allow it, and moving on with the business of maintaining his position as a top program.
You probably wouldn't know it from this thread, but I'm all about tough love, you made your bed - lie in it, parenting. But that doesn't mean that I accept whatever punishment someone else hands down as fair.
The only lesson here is one of intolerance and self preservation. Is this really who we want our kids to be? If the kid needs a swift kick in the kahoonies, give it to him. Then show him the way.
Our currently intolerant society has no mechanism to teach anything other than resentment. There are no teaching moments for a kid who's thrown out on his ear. And anyone who's sent a kid off to college, knows that we are still dealing with kids and how much still needs to be learned.
As to who's job description it is to take care of this...well, the coaches that sat in my living room trying to woo my son to come to their college were very much giving us the impression that they would be mentors to our son and do much more than the minimum requirement to insure his success as a person and a student. So unless the wooing of recruits has changed much, the coaches in our living room, wrote that into their own job description.
CPLZ - I can't quite agree with everything you've said but you do make some great points. I'm with you that zero tolerance is a chicken**** way to go but I think came about due to lawsuits. I personally think every situation should be handled on a case by case basis and try to do that but how many times have we seen in the news where a lawsuit is brought about because a family feels their child was treated differently than another? I know being in education I see it a lot and it is easier to just zero tolerance everything than to have most situations end up in court or the newspaper. Doesn't make it right but that's what I think has caused it.
If you were a head coach what type of system would you have in place? I remember a few years ago I got into a discussion on here about drinking and punishments and at that point I was aligned with the coach at LSU. Over the years I've since changed my stance some due to things that have happened but I still think something of this nature still deserves a severe punishment.
One area I will disagree with you with is that it's not a coaches job to "save" players. Our job is to run a baseball team because while we're saving that one kid what are we doing about the other kids on the team? Parents / guardians are the ones who should be responsible for things like this. Now I realize that not everyone has great parents and this is why I personally will try to avoid tossing anyone over a first time offense......although I have. If a coach says in a team meeting and / or has some sort of written policy "any DUI's will result in a dismissal from the team" then I have no sympathy for the player. As others have pointed out he broke a rule. But to make it worse he didn't work anything out before hand. Or if he knew he didn't have a ride to limit himself to where he could operate a vehicle legally (although the underage drinking would still get him).
What I've discovered / realized over the years is that it's better to have fewer rules and have them be more vague to allow me to handle each situation individually. But deep down I realize any decision I make that looks different for one player over another will get me beat in court.
If you were a head coach what type of system would you have in place? I remember a few years ago I got into a discussion on here about drinking and punishments and at that point I was aligned with the coach at LSU. Over the years I've since changed my stance some due to things that have happened but I still think something of this nature still deserves a severe punishment.
One area I will disagree with you with is that it's not a coaches job to "save" players. Our job is to run a baseball team because while we're saving that one kid what are we doing about the other kids on the team? Parents / guardians are the ones who should be responsible for things like this. Now I realize that not everyone has great parents and this is why I personally will try to avoid tossing anyone over a first time offense......although I have. If a coach says in a team meeting and / or has some sort of written policy "any DUI's will result in a dismissal from the team" then I have no sympathy for the player. As others have pointed out he broke a rule. But to make it worse he didn't work anything out before hand. Or if he knew he didn't have a ride to limit himself to where he could operate a vehicle legally (although the underage drinking would still get him).
What I've discovered / realized over the years is that it's better to have fewer rules and have them be more vague to allow me to handle each situation individually. But deep down I realize any decision I make that looks different for one player over another will get me beat in court.
quote:As to who's job description it is to take care of this...well, the coaches that sat in my living room trying to woo my son to come to their college were very much giving us the impression that they would be mentors to our son and do much more than the minimum requirement to insure his success as a person and a student.
Still don't think this includes keeping him sober and off the road. JMO