Lying

Its,

Anyone who believes anything that a college recruiter says or writes or emails, until about a week before the signing day, should have their head examined.

Everyone in the world know that summer camps and winter camps are MONEY MAKERS for the college coaches involved.

Been,

Dead on IMO.
Maybe some older folks like us have known that for a long time - but dear Lord - these people have no conscience.

They have no soul.

They are scammers.

They are liars that prey on parents desires.

They are truly filth. IMO.

Disgraceful mess. Perhaps the NCAA should spend some time on this garbage - and chill out on the mascot thing.

wow I just have to disagree,
you guys have been hitting the chianti & slivovitz respectivly (or ir-respectivly)

however, CAMPS ARE A SEPARATE STORY - I would suggest to TOTALLY disregard camp corespondence & belly laugh at any mention of YOUR skills in a camp invite - those are mass mailed from a super-secret hacked list of suckers that originates from the cell of some felon working time off his sentence (saw it on Geraldo )

Bee

What is slivovitz - and more importantly - does it taste good?

LOL



P.S. How is your son doing?

quote:

What is slivovitz - and more importantly - does it taste good?

it's slovak plum brandy & it depends on who made it & how much you "taste"



Andy is fine, thanks

Dear Itsinthegame and others, excuse my ignorance,....bare with me while I ask this cause I really want your opinions!

While to me its obvious that the camps are designed to help the college make $$$$, my way of thinking was that if my son attended the college camp of his choice, and the camp was being run by its actual baseball coaches, wouldn't this give my son a chance to show his skills over a several day period? Because we are from a rural area, we had thought this might be a good way to learn something and be seen at he same time. Are we waaay off track? We dont have the time or money to be suckered!

Oldslugger.

That word isnt nice. Not really a HSBBWEB word IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by shortstopmom:
Dear Itsinthegame and others, excuse my ignorance,....bare with me while I ask this cause I really want your opinions!

While to me its obvious that the camps are designed to help the college make $$$$, my way of thinking was that if my son attended the college camp of his choice, and the camp was being run by its actual baseball coaches, wouldn't this give my son a chance to show his skills over a several day period? Because we are from a rural area, we had thought this might be a good way to learn something and be seen at he same time. Are we waaay off track? We dont have the time or money to be suckered!

SSMom,

College camps are a great way for your son to be seen by the coaches. Especially if it is a school he really likes.

That is not what I was saying.

I was saying that college coaches - or their assistants - SHOULD NOT LIE about seeing someone.

They should not write letters - or send letters with lies in them.
They SHOULD NOT LIE about seeing someone THEY NEVER SAW.

Its that simple.

If you write a letter to someone - and it says "We saw you at .........." - and they didnt see him anywhere. They are liars.

It is about common decency and honesty. Thats all.
IMO.

quote:

wouldn't this give my son a chance to show his skills over a several day period?

you ARE correct, and that's a great viewpoint - -
I (we?) am referring to the printed advertising drivel seriously misleading vulnerable players & parents & prying $$ away from them falsely

Thanks sooo much for responding! I now understand the main point you are trying to get across!!
It does give a newbie kinda a false excited rush to get a letter saying we saw you at " such and such event " , especially if you had indeed attended that particular event, and then they send you a camp invite. Could lead the non experienced ones to falsely hope that maybe someone might be wanting to see their talent in a more prolonged atmosphere.
Very clever, dishonest, sneaky, salesman tactic.
Must work on alot of trustworth people.
That saddens me & would make me question the entire specific organization, as a whole.

SSMom,

When all is said and done - it isnt about baseball IMO.

It is about being honest.

Lying is never acceptable - never justified - and never right.

And as you go through this baseball recruiting journey - you will hear alot of justifications for the lying.

But it is never right. IMO.

....about the lying, and thank you.

I agree that camps are more of a moneymaker than anything else for a program. However,I do personally know kids that were identified at a college camp for that program.

I also agree that lying is a terrible thing and taking advantage of others is horrible.

I don't agree that the majority of college coaches are this way.

My brother recently was talking with me about a problem with my heating system. He asked me a question and when I answered burst out laughing and said that any HVAC guy would take me for a bundle if I answered that question in the same manner to him. Was he right? Of course not!

There are dishonest people in all walks of life. I don't believe that most college coaches deliberately mislead young players and their families. Often we look and hear things that were never really there to begin with and then can feel angry when an offer doesn't manifest itself paying for junior's college. Sometimes, it's just simple mis understandings that lead folks to be disappointed.

And yes, sometimes there's a coach that is less than honest... we met a couple ourselves along the way. Still think they're few and far between just as with the HVAC guys or anyone else!

My son's coach is as honest as they come! My son and I would believe anything he tells us. If you don't feel that way up front with the one you're dealing with.... might need to go on down the road.

quote:

"Dear Kyle - we had the opportunity to see you play at ......

This is not in defense of lying or deception in a way for a program to make money, because that is wrong . However, when someone says that "we've seen you play", does it have to be the person writing the letter who actually saw you, or, can it be any contact/agent of that program? Coaches, recruiters, and scouts network and I'm sure pass names back and forth all the time, maybe some of these seemingly deceptive practices are legit.

On the flip side recruits are asked to make official visits on the schools dime and probably have no serious interest in the school or is using it as leverage against another. Is that also deception?

My point is that this is a business, and business is full of "baiting", "mis-direction", and unfortunately many times lying and deceit. Is it wrong, yes, is it business, another yes. It is a consumer beware situation and very few have experience because it is a short life cycle for the consumer. On top of that we want the best for our kids thus we get the "sucker" stamp on the forehead That is where sites like the HSBBW provide a wealth of knowledge in perparing a family for situations like these.

It doesn't look like this will be a very popular response, but it is a different angle.

Just curious, as my son is an '11 and this will be useful someday.

With all the kids out there, why would a college coach try to entice a kid he never saw?

It would seem to me that only a few out of 10 that he ACTUALLY sees are worth contacting again. Why go after kids you've never even seen?

papi - Its College "camps" - they make money for their baseball program - by getting kids to pay money to attend.

They send out letters - saying they "saw" you - and they want to get a closer look.

In most cases - they never saw you. - They just lie - in writing no less.

They just want your money.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Just curious, as my son is an '11 and this will be useful someday.

With all the kids out there, why would a college coach try to entice a kid he never saw?

It would seem to me that only a few out of 10 that he ACTUALLY sees are worth contacting again. Why go after kids you've never even seen?

Attendance is via United States Treasury Department currency.

quote:

With all the kids out there, why would a college coach try to entice a kid he never saw?

I doubt it but maybe someone else saw him and passed his name on to the coach.

Okay, I get it now. This isn't about recruiting, it's about "inviting" kids to a camp.

Now I understand. I too, would be upset if we were tricked into attending like this.

biggerpapi, This is sort getting off of the thread, but some coaches do actually recruit kids they've never seen. My own son received calls from several coaches that have never seen him play in person. He also actually received an offer from a coach who'd never seen him period... playing or just in person. It was simply based on what a trusted source had told him.

That being said, another coach of a program my son was interested in had referrals on son, but said to son "I never make an offer to a player I don't see play with my own eyes" and made plans to do that before talking any further.

It just depends on the coach and I guess on his contacts.... he may have some he fully trusts and others he doesn't rely on as much.

We might be the #1 source for others to use in mass mailings.

First of all, we have more information compiled than anyone else and we also have more players of the right ages attend our stuff than anyone else. Therefore we have the largest list of good players!

Part of helping young players the most is getting the scouting info out to the right people. College coaches and scouts are the right people. But once they secure the contact information… We can’t control who they share it with or what they do with it

I have no problem with college coaches using the info for recruiting purposes and/or to send out camp invites. I’m sure they are sending out a standard letter.. same to everyone. Of course, they want the best players to come to their camps, and they also want to fill their camps. I do agree that saying a player was seen at a certain place should not be said unless it’s true. They shouldn’t do that… It is dishonest. At the same time, college camps can be very good for some players.

Here is what does bother me and it happens a lot.

Other showcase organizers get our lists and send out invitations saying we saw you at the “such and such” PG event. Many of you have probably seen these. Often players are listed in the scout info sheets but then can not actually attend the event for one reason or another. So they were NOT seen at that event because they were NOT there! Can’t tell you how often this happens. It doesn’t mean anything and goes unnoticed by those who were there… They take it for granted that they actually were seen at that event.

Those sending the flyers and brochures have no idea who was actually there because they weren’t there themselves. The only ones who know what’s going on are those players who get the invitations even though they were NOT there. And of course us!!!!

We know because we always plant a few names in our scout information. It’s amazing how many things my 10 year old grandson has been seen at and then invited to other things. He may hold the record for most invites to showcases and he doesn’t even play baseball. He has been to a couple of PG events… maybe they saw him running after a ball that went out of play. He was once invited to a NATIONAL high school age showcase tournament, that claimed to be the best. The literature compared this event to a PG event stating how much better it was than the PG event my Grandson was seen at. He might have accepted except he was only 8 years old at the time and didn’t play baseball. He sure can swim though!

Thank you PG for shedding a little ( well perhaps more like a super sonic beam of ) light on a subject that some of us felt might be down right shady. ( the lieing lure part anyways )
Its really nice that you take the time to share your wealth of knowledge across the HSBBW boards! There are lots of us who truely appreciate your honesty and efforts.

I have to say I agree with rz 100%!

Stating that a program has seen your son play and one needs to attend camp for a better "look", most probably is not true. I know of some instances where prospects were invited by way of phone call/email for camp and walked away with an offer. That's different.

As stated, this is a business, it's a business for all involved in the recruitment of baseball, and you need to become familiar with who you do business with.

As rz says, we do have the HSBBW to help to understand this information and for those to ask questions when in doubt.

As some you of might expect, I am now going to come to the defense of coaches. I would be willing to bet that a higher percentage of people who coach for a living are honest people compared to non-coaches. Just an educated guess.........

So now to put the shoe on the other foot.

Is it lying to inflate a kid's GPA on a form? Or to inflate his fastball velocity, batting average, 60 time, height/weight, etc. It occurs on a daily basis.

In all of my years of recruiting I never told a kid or his family that I had seen him if I hadn't seen him.

And when I work camps, I spend my energy teaching; that is what I thought most kids attend camps for....to learn and improve.

I just thought I would spend a few minutes to legitimately play devil's advocate.

quote:

Is it lying to inflate a kid's GPA on a form? Or to inflate his fastball velocity, batting average, 60 time, etc.

You betcha it is!!!

Lieing is lieing on either side of the coin!!

quote:

In all of my years of recruiting I never told a kid or his family that I had seen him if I hadn't seen him.
And when I work camps, I spend my energy teaching; that is what I thought most kids attend camps for....to learn and improve.

IMHO: A few rotten recruiting tactics shouldn't ruin the reputation of ( what I have faith in, is the majority ) of good coaches and organizations out there!

I do feel its important for the consumer ( & we are at the very least, consumers ) to be aware and well informed about the choices we make.

Grateful,
I do beleive that the majority of coaches do not use those tactics.

quote:

Grateful,
I do beleive that the majority of coaches do not use those tactics.

Yep! I agree TPM!!!

I'm with Grateful also on this. It's the "1 one bad apple"scenario. A lot of good programs and camps that need revenue to exist are being labled. Consumer beware and do your homework! If you get the shaft you first might want to check the mirror for the responsible party.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Just curious, as my son is an '11 and this will be useful someday.

With all the kids out there, why would a college coach try to entice a kid he never saw?

It would seem to me that only a few out of 10 that he ACTUALLY sees are worth contacting again. Why go after kids you've never even seen?

biggerpapi - I hope everyone understands when some are anti-college camps; it is from the point of college recruiting and thinking that going to a college camp will lead to a great baseball scholarship.

For younger kids that want to get exposure to a college baseball camp, I would say go for it. We sent our kids to various college baseball camps when they were young, it gave them a great perspective to shoot for and help them set the bar of it is expected that they do well in school and on the field and one day they may play for a college. It also provided good coaching, if it is from a coach or a current player (sometimes that is even a bigger thrill!)

a little twist to the topic. it made me think how different things are. our state university dropped baseball some years back. but when we had it the camp fundraiser was sun. afternoon for a couple of hours, that went 5 or 6 weeks. ages 9-12 then 13 to 18.the team ran them through drill stations. hitting fielding pitching. kind of fun to watch. at the end of the 6 weeks skill competition. you had to sign up early or it was full.i think the money went to help the team, not the coach? could be that most camps are like this? i know they all aren't as son gets quite a few invites. still makes him feel good,even if they fib a little.

You have to look at all those invitiations as you do the tons of "you have been pre-approved for a $50,000.00 credit limit" invitations you get from banks you have never even heard of -

Until a coach contacts you directly via hand written letter, email or phone - don't get too excited. Take it for what it is worth - the paper it is written on and a possible opportunity. Period.

Greeeeat analogy Itsagreatgame!!! Wish I had thought of that!

Excuse my ignorance, but what does IMO meen?

IMO.
In My Opinion.

IMHO.
In My Humble Opinion.

JMO.
Just My Opinion.

JMHO.
Just My Humble Opinion.

Does that help.

There's so many you just have to pick them up as you go. LOL

LOL.
Laughing Out Loud.

EH

My son works a lot of the camps at his college and I think a lot of his coach. I know I have had him tell me personnaly about hs age players whom have really impressed him lending some credence to positive side of this thread.On the other side son feels sometimes like he is just babysitting younger guys in the summer because they many times are there to accomodate their parents.

EH.
Extra Hip

ITS.
Incorrect Timed Speed

TPM's.
Tired and Pooped but Mentality Sharp

others?

Wayback, Jr attended camp for local ACC school. In BP, hits 6 HR's in 11 swings, goes 1-2 in game w/HR. Pitches to 10 batters strikes out 8, with 2 pop ups.

Niiiice!

Except...local ACC coach was off in RF bullpen w/pitchers during BP, AND...then was not at camp the next day as he went to NY to scout Empire State games. Too bad, he missed quite a performance.

Never heard from coach. Gee, we did hear from the smaller DII and DIII schools who watched performance. That's Ok though, son got his wish to play at for warm weather D1 school who ranked fairly well last year. lol