Major League Baseball and Fundamentals

But can they hit ?

Yes they can hit but what I keep seeing is close game being lost by lack of fundamentals, not just hitting.

I was watching a Yankee game the other day and within 2 minutes I saw a batter fail to get the sac bunt down, and then the runner get picked off at 1st base by the pitcher... It disgusted me

.I was watching a Yankee game the other day and within 2 minutes I saw a batter fail to get the sac bunt down, and then the runner get picked off at 1st base by the pitcher... It disgusted me.



i feel the same way every yankee game.

i'm sorry,i couldn't help it, red sox fan.

They play a lot of innings. Stuff happens.
Its really not that easy to play pro ball
I hear fans in stands always saying things like "Oh I could have gotten that bunt down...etc"

NO you couldn't

With the lack of fundamentals it makes you wonder how they ever got to the bigs.

Oh yea, talent.

I realize it is a tough game but I am talking basics, rundowns, circling around a ball in the ourfield and being in a position to throw, knowing where the wall is in the ourfield as opposed to the tentative attemps we see, knowing how many outs there are, heck I saw a cubs rundown a while back and it must have ben 6 or 7 throws. How about on second base no outs ball hit to ss or the runners right and he goes to third to be out by 20 feet.

Sorry not trying to pick on them but come on this is their job, and I am not worried about a fan getting the bunt down but yes I would like to see a major league player get it down.

Yes doughnutman they have talent but the mistakes I am watching is costing them plenty of games.

Just giving you a hard time 2bagger. Bored at work. But it is true. I have always looked at it like this.

It is the same in every line of work. The producers have a different set of rules in all aspects of life. If you are the top dog in your office, you can get away with the occaisional mistake or goof off. The guys that aren't producing have to walk a tight line.

These are pros at the top level in the world. They are allowed to have a few holes if they can produce. You will notice that utility guys and defensive subs rarely make those mistakes. They can't afford to.

Even assuming players could perform these fundamental tasks at previous levels, the game is much faster at the MLB level. So, no Mr Fan in the stands you probably couldn't do it. The ball, whether hit or thrown is moving at a speed that would intimidate Mr. Fan.

Whether or not a MLB'er can perform a task on a given night may not be about ability. It may be about focus. He may not have it that game. It's a job. They're out there every day. They get very few days off. He may have a kid sick at home. He may be having marriage problems.

We all bad days at work. It's just not televised. And I haven't been boo'ed by 50,000 people yet for accidently saying something stupid in a business negotiation.

HaHa, I haven't been booed by 50,000 people either. But I have been at a game where 45,000 people were booing my son on opening day. Quite an experience!

His fundementals were real good, just couldn't get anyone out.

Really I agree with RJM, the speed of the game changes. Knowing what to do, or how to do it and getting it done are two different things. I do know what 2bagger means though. There are a lot of mistakes that make you wonder.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Even assuming players could perform these fundamental tasks at previous levels, the game is much faster at the MLB level. So, no Mr Fan in the stands you probably couldn't do it. The ball, whether hit or thrown is moving at a speed that would intimidate Mr. Fan.

Whether or not a MLB'er can perform a task on a given night may not be about ability. It may be about focus. He may not have it that game. It's a job. They're out there every day. They get very few days off. He may have a kid sick at home. He may be having marriage problems.

We all bad days at work. It's just not televised. And I haven't been boo'ed by 50,000 people yet for accidently saying something stupid in a business negotiation.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
HaHa, I haven't been booed by 50,000 people either. But I have been at a game where 45,000 people were booing my son on opening day. Quite an experience!

I was talking with Tom House at spring training many years ago. He was a minor league pitching coach with the Padres. I said I remembered him with the Red Sox. House said he was surprised I knew his last name. He said by the time the PA said, "Now pitching, Tom ...." the boos drowned out his last name.

When House came to the Sox is was during an era of one weak bullpen after another (the post Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater era). House had a great year as a middle reliever with the Braves. He was supposed to be the savior of the Red Sox bullpen. He got hammered.

Rjm, I do understand what you are saying but I am referring to is not an isolated play it is almost nightly as far as outfield throws and routes or baserunning. I also agree that of course the game speed changes. Even more of a reason to stick with fundamentals that got you there unless it was just athletic ability. I guess it is that continual sloppy play that drives me nuts.

I have never been booed by 50,000 and at the asme time I have never booed anyone, I just don't think that way.

PG, sorry about your son being booed like that but I bet he can handle it no problem.

Based on your location 2bagger, I can only assume my White Sox inspired this post...

JPontiac they sure do some of the inspiring for the post! lol

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Originally posted by 2013Catcher:
I saw a batter fail to get the sac bunt down, ...

I love this one. Everyone always seems to think that "getting the bunt down" is some kind of moral imperative, like stopping at a red light when nobody is around. Every creature who ever walked the earth should have enough respect for humanity to be able "to get the bunt down". Even old women seem to think they have some God-given right to criticize failure to execute the bunt. Yet great MLB players, with .300+ batting averages (something that most citizens will NEVER be able to do) still can't be perfect at it. But fans still throw up their arms in disgust and thrash around like they were in the Holocaust when it comes to the bunt, as if this should be easier and more "fundamental" than anything else.

Ya ever try to bunt a 92-MPH two-seamer up and in, during a MLB game? I bet its not so GD "fundamental"...

I think big leaguers do make mistakes or mental errors sometimes, perhaps even daily. However, I believe they make less of these "fundamental" mistakes than any other level of the game generally speaking. I dont believe lower levels are more fundamentally sound.

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Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Originally posted by 2013Catcher:
I saw a batter fail to get the sac bunt down, ...

I love this one. Everyone always seems to think that "getting the bunt down" is some kind of moral imperative, like stopping at a red light when nobody is around. Every creature who ever walked the earth should have enough respect for humanity to be able "to get the bunt down". Even old women seem to think they have some God-given right to criticize failure to execute the bunt. Yet great MLB players, with .300+ batting averages (something that most citizens will NEVER be able to do) still can't be perfect at it. But fans still throw up their arms in disgust and thrash around like they were in the Holocaust when it comes to the bunt, as if this should be easier and more "fundamental" than anything else.

Ya ever try to bunt a 92-MPH two-seamer up and in, during a MLB game? I bet its not so GD "fundamental"...

Add in most MLB'ers were studs at previous levels all their life and never had to bunt.

IMO, the MLB scouts are looking for the big kid (6'2"-6'5") that can hit the 3 run bomb. Most of these players participated on the elite teams during their youth years and no one ever forced them to play the game using great fundamentals. I have watched so many of the so called elite teams and the coach is a great recruiter but he is scared that if he makes the best players do XYZ a certain way then the best players will quit. Another problem is that it's hard to change a kid unless they are failing and most of the elite players are such good athletes they don't fail in high school.

All of this works until the USA plays in the World Championships against the quick/fast teams that know how to play small ball.

quote:

Originally posted by greenmachine:
I think big leaguers do make mistakes or mental errors sometimes, perhaps even daily. However, I believe they make less of these "fundamental" mistakes than any other level of the game generally speaking. I dont believe lower levels are more fundamentally sound.

I'd agree with that. I've spent the week watching minor league games and its a much faster and more difficult game to play then even the best college leagues. The teams are loaded with kids that have ability and fundementals, some more so then others. I have noticed that when my son played in college a fundemental breakdown did not always lead to a problem as teams couldn't take advantage. At the pro level if a mistake or breakdown occurs the other team/players are usually good enough to take advantage of it just about everytime, thus the missed hit and run or bunt really stands out, where at the college or lower level it might not.

Sure, there are guys who can't bunt at the pro level or catch a difficult fly ball in Yankee staduim, however these guys often bring other value to their team that offsets that fundemental deficiency, otherwise they wouldn't be playing.

I find the discussion interesting. The OP brings up some valid points.

Sometimes I think some teams move the young players too quickly, that will result in a lack of fundamentals on the ML field that you may be seeing.

At each level there is an adjustment, that's why the minors exist, but sometimes, especialy in the casemof injury, that has to be done on the big field.

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IMO, the MLB scouts are looking for the big kid (6'2"-6'5") that can hit the 3 run bomb. Most of these players participated on the elite teams during their youth years and no one ever forced them to play the game using great fundamentals.

If the kid is batting 600 with an OBP of 750 and a slugging % of 1.5, it would be pretty silly to bunt them. A lot of the elite kids have those numbers. The coach would be silly to bunt them.

Anyone going to rail on Jordan Shafer tonight for failing to get the bat on the ball in an attempted squeeze against the Orioles??? Surely there's some outrage out there for this one. Left Ross hanging in a rundown...

It’s hard to appreciate the level of difficulty at the MLB level. Our son often talked about the focus, knowledge, and ability needed to compete with and against the best. To say its intense is an understatement.

As one of his coaches used to say, "If it were easy, everyone would do it."

I remember a column in the San Francisco Chronicle about this topic, around 1974.

Maybe some of these guys are the "projectable" guys you see on scouting reports.

Every prospect with a scouting report is a "projectable guy."

I was at a Washington Nationals vs Pittsburgh Pirates game on 7/3. Two teams with a recent history of futitility. We went to the game anyway because my son has wanted to see a game @ Nats Park, and it was the only open weekend we had for a while.

The crowd was booing Jason Werth unmercilessly as he just did not have it at the plate that day. Everytime he came up with runners on base, he struck out. When I analyzed the situation a little closer, I realized that he has absolutely no protection in the batting lineup.....so he is going to see **** pitches. He had Matt Stairs in front of him batting 4th with a .160 BA. Matt was a much better hitter 10 years ago. Batting 6th behind Werth is converted pitcher Rick Ankiel batting in the .220s. I would have pitched **** to Werth too!

Everything in MLB isn't as it appears. Based on my day at the major league ballfield you would think Jason Werth is terrible. He's not. The Pirates played it smart, and didn't let the Nats best player beat them. That is good baseball on their part and no reflection on Jason Werth's talents in my honest opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I was at a Washington Nationals vs Pittsburgh Pirates game on 7/3. Two teams with a recent history of futitility. We went to the game anyway because my son has wanted to see a game @ Nats Park, and it was the only open weekend we had for a while.

The crowd was booing Jason Werth unmercilessly as he just did not have it at the plate that day. Everytime he came up with runners on base, he struck out. When I analyzed the situation a little closer, I realized that he has absolutely no protection in the batting lineup.....so he is going to see **** pitches. He had Matt Stairs in front of him batting 4th with a .160 BA. Matt was a much better hitter 10 years ago. Batting 6th behind Werth is converted pitcher Rick Ankiel batting in the .220s. I would have pitched **** to Werth too!

Everything in MLB isn't as it appears. Based on my day at the major league ballfield you would think Jason Werth is terrible. He's not. The Pirates played it smart, and didn't let the Nats best player beat them. That is good baseball on their part and no reflection on Jason Werth's talents in my honest opinion.

Totally agree with that. Baseball at times seems like an individual game but it really is not when you dig a little deeper. If you check out the stats for almost any pro hitter, you'll see their batting average is 50 to 100 points or more higher with runners on base. Much, much more difficult to hit when one guy is carrying the load.

Many of the "fundamental" mistakes we see are not caused by players not knowing the proper procedure. The slower the game, the more time players have to make the right decisions. The faster the game, the more players have to combine their decision making with instincts. The higher the level the the closer instincts and decision making become. Some are better than others in doing that.

Someone mentioned seeing a runner thrown out at 3B on a groundball fielded by the shortstop. Obviously every Major League player knows how to deal with that play. But if a players first read (instincts) puts him in a bad position these things can happen. That mistake does not happen very often in the Major leagues.

Also, mental errors, fundamental mistakes are much more magnified at that level. Not getting the bunt down could be a fundamental mistake if the bunter doesn't know how to bunt. But the pitcher's job is to keep the bunter from being successful. It's not like it is easy.

Taking the wrong route on a fly ball is also more instinctual rather than fundamental.

These guys are not perfect. They're just among the very best baseball players in the world. Some obviously better than others, but they all have played more against better competition and learned things that others never get a chance to experience. They all have to adjust to the different speed of the game at every level. Mistakes are made by everyone.

The smartest, most fundamentally sound team, is not always the biggest winner. The smartest, most fundamentally sound player is not always the biggest star. Sure is a gigantic advantage though.

Yeah, my son and I went to a Padres-Nationals game the weekend of PG Sunshine West. He kept saying he felt like he was seeing better baseball at the showcase than at that ballpark... particularly the pitching. He faced four guys that day at PG that all threw harder and seemed to have better stuff than any of the five or six guys trotted out for these two MLB teams. Neither starter came close to touching 90, one in the low 80's.
And both lineups... ughhh. At the time, no Zimmerman or Pudge for the Nats. They hit Werth leadoff that game, I guess to give some form of protection?. It seemed like a combined .185 BA for both teams.
I know these guys are still the cream of the crop, but it was not the perception that day.
Most entertaining moment was watching Todd Coffey sprint onto the field. If you've never seen it, youtube it.

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Most entertaining moment was watching Todd Coffey sprint onto the field. If you've never seen it, youtube it.

cabbagedad,

You're exactly right....Coffey sprinting from the bullpen to the infield in 99 degree heat was the Nats highlight of the day (Sunday). The fans went crazy for him. Coffey is a big DUDE! I saw more hustle out of Coffey in that 30 seconds than I saw in Werth "jogging" after some foul balls. Nothing iritates me or my wife more than to see a major leaguer or professional baseball player not hustle. Just one of those pet peeves. Coffey is defintely a hustler and intense guy. I love it.

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Have said this before...but it is worth repeating..

Was blessed sit in the stands frequently for a few years with a former WS winning manager and picked his brain...

Told me that by the end of his tenure, that the organization was sending him increasingly gifted athletes who didn't quite know how to play baseball.

Two other observations...

I think that it is also worth remembering how difficult the travel schedules are at a professional level...some of those mistakes are made in mental fog...

And frankly how fast and how hard the game is at that level...and how supremely skilled the competition is. At every level it always appears from the stands that the game is so simple and easy. It ain't. It's lightning fast, the tolerance levels are miniscule, and virtually every player literally has magic in their bat, in their feet or in their arm...In the immortal words of Crash Davis..."UnGodly stuff".

44
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quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

quote:

IMO, the MLB scouts are looking for the big kid (6'2"-6'5") that can hit the 3 run bomb. Most of these players participated on the elite teams during their youth years and no one ever forced them to play the game using great fundamentals.

If the kid is batting 600 with an OBP of 750 and a slugging % of 1.5, it would be pretty silly to bunt them. A lot of the elite kids have those numbers. The coach would be silly to bunt them.

That is part of the problem, no one has ever made the elite kids play fundamental baseball. Just watch the world championships and you will see that the USA has a difficult time both playing and defending small ball.

"Coffey is defintely a hustler and intense guy"

Hustling 2 or 3 times a week onto the field does not make you intense or a hustler. If he worked at all outside of that 100 foot sprint when the crowds are there he wouldn't be 300+ pounds.

He is just putting on a show. I doubt if he runs like that at anytime other than when the buffet line opens up.

"That is part of the problem, no one has ever made the elite kids play fundamental baseball. Just watch the world championships and you will see that the USA has a difficult time both playing and defending small ball."

Then you should blame the scouts and MLB. Nobody ever gets drafted because he is a good bunter or can field a slow roller.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
"Coffey is defintely a hustler and intense guy"

Hustling 2 or 3 times a week onto the field does not make you intense or a hustler. If he worked at all outside of that 100 foot sprint when the crowds are there he wouldn't be 300+ pounds.

He is just putting on a show. I doubt if he runs like that at anytime other than when the buffet line opens up.

OK, so maybe he's a hustler of a different kind. The day we saw him, they were wearing throwbacks with no markings on the front of the jerseys that, well, lets just say... accentuated his jiggling man-****s.

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Nobody ever gets drafted because he is a good bunter or can field a slow roller.

I'd venture to say that people like David Eckstein, Scott Podsednick and Scott Brosius would argue against this.

There are 5 tools in scouting. The perception of the 5 tools is not etched in stone. I'd venture to say that bunting and fielding slow rollers factor into a scout's evaluation. If you have a prospect that projects to have one tool that is extremely better than others (Ie: tons of power, slow baserunner. Or really great hands in the field, lacks power), there are certain things that can be overlooked and/or factored into an overall evaluation.

quote:

Originally posted by cbg:

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

quote:

IMO, the MLB scouts are looking for the big kid (6'2"-6'5") that can hit the 3 run bomb. Most of these players participated on the elite teams during their youth years and no one ever forced them to play the game using great fundamentals.

If the kid is batting 600 with an OBP of 750 and a slugging % of 1.5, it would be pretty silly to bunt them. A lot of the elite kids have those numbers. The coach would be silly to bunt them.

That is part of the problem, no one has ever made the elite kids play fundamental baseball. Just watch the world championships and you will see that the USA has a difficult time both playing and defending small ball.

Hope of the long ball is a greater enemy of fundamentals than high batting average.

How many times have you seen coach send the big guy who's been slumping up to the plate in a clutch situation, even though the numbers would tell him to pinch hit the fast little guy who bunts flawlessly and always makes contact? And every parent in the stands, even though they know better (possibly even the little guy's parents), sit there hanging on the hope that the big guy is a about to break out of his 1-for-15 slump and dazzle everyone with a bomb.