Making the right decision...Lessons learned

Good stuff JIM T,

I know some advice has been to choose the school where you will be happy if you do not play baseball.  I understand the reasoning behind that, but most the kids I know would never be happy if they didn't play baseball. In fact, they would rather be playing and dislike the school than the other way around.  That is why so many transfer, they transfer because of baseball not so much because of the school.

So I agree with your last paragraph completely if baseball is important to someone.

Fantastic post- very real advice - thanks for sharing. 

A couple of points that I jumped out at me was the mention of the Recruiting Coordinator is a lead generator.  I think this was definitely true for my son.  The recruiting coordinator would be all excited, get son all excited, but ultimately, it was the HC's decision. 

As far as the coach's not coaching or not knowing as much as your private instructor.  That hasn't been my son's experience.  His PC at JC has been outstanding for him, and he has taken a lot of time to mold him.  Also, a lot of college coach's have also spent plenty of time in the minors, so I don't think it is fair to paint all college coach's with the same brush. 

I do however agree that if something isn't working, then son should communicate.  If it's not working, what does he have to lose?  He could carry on, but he would fail anyway if he is not comfortable/capable of making the suggested adjustments.

I still believe in "more needs to fit than just baseball." I know a kid who started freshman year at a D1, hit .300 and was second on the team in homers and rbi's. He hated the environment he was living and transferred.

Chances are the player's future earning ability will be based on academics, not baseball. There are players who don't start for four years and stay. There are kids who bag the sport after two years and stay (especially at the D3 level). If my kid told me he was leaving an Ivy so he could start at Whattsamatta U I'd chain him to the campus. 

Sometimes the views on this board only portray the view of players who consider themselves a lock to be ultimately drafted in a reasonable round (1-20). In this situation baseball gets more weight in the decision. 

RJM posted:

I still believe in "more needs to fit than just baseball." I know a kid who started freshman year at a D1, hit .300 and was second on the team in homers and rbi's. He hated the environment he was living and transferred.

Chances are the player's future earning ability will be based on academics, not baseball. There are players who don't start for four years and stay. There are kids who bag the sport after two years and stay (especially at the D3 level). If my kid told me he was leaving an Ivy so he could start at Whattsamatta U I'd chain him to the campus. 

Sometimes the views on this board only portray the view of players who consider themselves a lock to be ultimately drafted in a reasonable round (1-20). In this situation baseball gets more weight in the decision. 

I think you missed my point.  Most "off the shelf advice" is to pick the school first and baseball second.  I was almost cliche when we were going through the process.  That's probably right if you're not dependent on a scholarship and if a bad baseball experience is kind of ok with you.  I would say most kids of parents on this board would say the two are inextricably linked. 

I think the player and parent should make an honest assessment of both but know that the program is often the reflection of just on man, the coach...so choose wisely.  

Just reading all the bad stuff and potential for injury, why would someone who is potentially getting drafted, choose to go to college? That being said, I read the book, "where no one knows your name" and it sounds like Milb is rough too, so why would you want to go right into Milb from HS?

Everyone understands that in most all cases the education is far more important than baseball.  If this were the HSeducationweb, and the topic was playing baseball in college, that would be different.  However I believe the vast majority of those visiting this site are here because of baseball first. I mean it is the HSbaseballweb.  No need to come here to find the best educational opportunities without baseball. Iowa State and Wisconsin are both great colleges, but they don't have baseball programs, just like many other colleges don't have baseball.  You know I can't remember one discussion on this site from parents interested in those colleges. Yet there are numerous discussions about other colleges that most have never even heard of.  And the majority of those discussions is about baseball.  So I have to think baseball is very important around here.

Of course students transfer for many different reasons.  In my experience most baseball players transfer because of baseball.  And when they choose a college, baseball is a major factor in that decision.  If it is not, this site has been fooling me for a long time.  It has nothing to do with draft rounds in many cases.  Maybe when a DIII player wants to transfer to a DI it might.  But there are many college baseball student athletes that end up transferring just because of baseball. Of course there are also many other reasons why students transfer,

I would probably chain my kid up too if he wanted to transfer from an IVY.  However the IVY League players are a tiny segment of college baseball players.

Bottom line... It is all about how important baseball is to each individual.  The importance of baseball goes much deeper than getting drafted.  So it is not about what we think or even know is most important, it is about the happiness of each individual.  Some are happy dropping baseball because they love the school, others are not.

Dadof3 posted:

Just reading all the bad stuff and potential for injury, why would someone who is potentially getting drafted, choose to go to college? That being said, I read the book, "where no one knows your name" and it sounds like Milb is rough too, so why would you want to go right into Milb from HS?

boy, you just opened a whole can of worms there.  Bottom line is, if you've been through this process, and a few parents on this board have been for the last year,  what you learn is there's no "right" answer here.  Very situation dependent and personal.  I'm pretty sure I could take either side of the "pro vs college" debate and argue just as convincingly both ways. 

I agree with most of Jim T's post.

Four year deals are great on paper, but  rarely will a player stay if he is not playing. Why stay where you are not wanted?

JC transfers will always be a part of some schools. Easy to figure out which ones depend on that the most.

HC runs the team. Again, pretty easy to check his style which most likely never change.

Nice to have a player close by to be there when you can. Don't expect lots of overnight home visits.

Bottom line, transfers happen. No matter how well you vett the process. My best advise is to choose a coach of character, work hard and believe that all things happen for a reason. 

Dadof3 posted:

Just reading all the bad stuff and potential for injury, why would someone who is potentially getting drafted, choose to go to college? That being said, I read the book, "where no one knows your name" and it sounds like Milb is rough too, so why would you want to go right into Milb from HS?

I think if somebody's #1 goal is to play Pro Baseball, they go pro if drafted and can always put that on a resume if they want to get into coaching or scouting or front office work after they are done playing.

That isn't always everyone's #1 goal though.  Some want to make as much money as possible and instead of going where drafted out of high school they are leveraging themselves as being better draft picks after 3-4 years of college.  That is a real roll of the dice.  As others have said here, they are betting they know more about their potential than pro scouts and for most that is a real dubious proposition.

Some just really want the college experience, that is more important to them.  

If you visit Coastal Carolina and see all the beautiful women on that campus and then drive the short distance from campus to Myrtle Beach, if you aren't a hard core dirt dog Baseball player a lot of 17-18 year olds would say "pro ball can wait".  And that is just one example

I will add to that last post:  a lot of people look at what are their chances to play MLB vs going to college?  If they don't think they can play MLB or if they think their chances are slim they will choose college and see if they develop more.  Some are just hardcore Baseball people and see pro ball, any type of pro ball as the destination, and/or they just don't like school.  Yes their goal ultimately is MLB but first their goal is to be drafted and get into MiLB.  Those types of people tend to be Baseball lifers

The following comments are in no way directed towards the OP as I know nothing of the individual experience or situation.  

Son and his friends are finishing first year of college athletics. Know lots of football, volleyball, and especially baseball players at all levels of collegiate athletics.  

I would say by and large athletes and families are happy or displeased with their school choice based on one thing and that's...playtime.  Not all that much changes from 12U on. 

3and2Fastball posted:

If you visit Coastal Carolina and see all the beautiful women on that campus and then drive the short distance from campus to Myrtle Beach, if you aren't a hard core dirt dog Baseball player a lot of 17-18 year olds would say "pro ball can wait".  And that is just one example

Life is tough playing baseball that close to the beach and even tougher with all the beautiful girls around but somebody's got to do it

Seriously, not sure I've seen any revelations in this thread.  It's dog eat dog out there.  Somehow, if you are an incoming high school player, you've got to figure out how to beat out JUCO transfer guys, upper classmen, and peers who likely were all-state players from wherever they came.  That is what you get at the next level and obviously there are no guarantees about anything.

Picked Off posted:

I agree with most of Jim T's post.

Four year deals are great on paper, but  rarely will a player stay if he is not playing. Why stay where you are not wanted?

JC transfers will always be a part of some schools. Easy to figure out which ones depend on that the most.

HC runs the team. Again, pretty easy to check his style which most likely never change.

Nice to have a player close by to be there when you can. Don't expect lots of overnight home visits.

Bottom line, transfers happen. No matter how well you vett the process. My best advise is to choose a coach of character, work hard and believe that all things happen for a reason. 

  

As far as pro vs college , only a few out of HS really will get to make that decision. Advice to all, always keep in mind that the best option is to have options. 

If you want to be able to play baseball in college, you have to be able to get that opportunity by not just how you play the game, but by your GPA, SAT, ACT.

If you want to play professional ball out of HS, you have to have those options to improve your leverage.  Without leverage, you can't negotiate.  Just keep in mind that unless you are a top HS prospect,  you will receive almost nothing in bonus.

Regardless of any choice, there are no guarantees either way.

PGStaff posted:

 Iowa State and Wisconsin are both great colleges, but they don't have baseball programs, just like many other colleges don't have baseball.  You know I can't remember one discussion on this site from parents interested in those colleges

My daughter is at Iowa State and loves it, my son loves it too, but he loves baseball too much for Iowa State to be a realistic choice. The highest praise he gives  a school is "something about it reminds me of Iowa State."

He's looking for the right overall fit — and baseball is going to be a big part of that.

3and2Fastball posted:

I will add to that last post:  a lot of people look at what are their chances to play MLB vs going to college?  If they don't think they can play MLB or if they think their chances are slim they will choose college and see if they develop more.  Some are just hardcore Baseball people and see pro ball, any type of pro ball as the destination, and/or they just don't like school.  Yes their goal ultimately is MLB but first their goal is to be drafted and get into MiLB.  Those types of people tend to be Baseball lifers

Or some have the opinion that if you are not a top round pick out of HS - like top 3-4 rounds, then you won't be as much of a priority for the MLB organization, and you should choose a college program where you'll have a chance to develop and mature into an adult and be better equipped to handle the minor league system- both from a baseball - and probably more importantly- from a maturity standpoint. 

Like I said previously, you can argue both ways just as convincingly- you listen to the pro organizations and they make a really good argument for going out of HS- backed up with a lot of data.  Then you turn around and listen to the college guys (and a lot of former pro players) and they make the argument for college just as convincingly- backed up with a lot of data.  It all comes down to your unique situation. 

On the college v. pro issue: I lived in a town that had a rookie ball team for more than a decade.  We got to get to know several of the players (some made it to the show).  The conversation about why they signed out of HS came down to these issues:  1.  $$$, 2. "I didn't like school that much".  There were not more reasons given than that.  Those who answered #2 were often drafted lower than those who answered #1.  Everyone of those who answered #1 had guaranteed $ in the contract to pay for college when/if they left baseball. 

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All pro contracts - except for players who have done 4 years of college - have a college scholarship component. If anyone is interested in learning more, there have been several threads over the years discussing the MLB scholarship program in which (I believe) 16% of the total available money is ever tapped.

Just to piggyback on PG and how important baseball is in a college decision.  Iowa State and Wisconsin were mentioned.  We are in Wisconsin.  He is slowly but surely coming to grips with the fact he is more of a football prospect.  He is on record that he would not go to Wisconsin.  Why?  Too liberal a town for his liking but the #1 reason?  No baseball team.  That's right even as a football player since his first love is baseball he at least wants to be able to go see baseball games at his college and preferably good baseball.  We have half joked about him picking the same college as one of his best friends (whose dad is on HSBBW but never posts) who is a freshman throwing 87.  They could room together and he could go to his baseball games and his buddy could come to the football games!  Yes baseball will still be a very very important factor in his college choice even though his career will more than likely end after high school - unless he can find that place to let him play both maybe at a D2 or something.  And then his decision would be 100% about baseball.  Education is what you make of it.  If YOU want a good education you can make that happen anywhere.

2020dad posted:

Just to piggyback on PG and how important baseball is in a college decision.  Iowa State and Wisconsin were mentioned.  We are in Wisconsin.  He is slowly but surely coming to grips with the fact he is more of a football prospect.  He is on record that he would not go to Wisconsin.  Why?  Too liberal a town for his liking but the #1 reason?  No baseball team.  That's right even as a football player since his first love is baseball he at least wants to be able to go see baseball games at his college and preferably good baseball.  We have half joked about him picking the same college as one of his best friends (whose dad is on HSBBW but never posts) who is a freshman throwing 87.  They could room together and he could go to his baseball games and his buddy could come to the football games!  Yes baseball will still be a very very important factor in his college choice even though his career will more than likely end after high school - unless he can find that place to let him play both maybe at a D2 or something.  And then his decision would be 100% about baseball.  Education is what you make of it.  If YOU want a good education you can make that happen anywhere.

HE'S ALIVE! 

Jim great post. My guy falls in your #5 slot. Went  2  years without a loss 225 K's 37 W. with numbers not far behind during the summer. After 1st pitch at begining of this yr.(frosh) PC let him know he would not be allowed that delivery there and to do it his way. The kid just never took to someone elses way.

Jim T.

Great post and lessons learned.  There are a few posts like this every year to remind us how difficult it is to find that elusive "right fit".  In my experience there is never a perfect fit, but a "right fit" that has compromises attached to it.  I'll be the first to admit my son made a great decision but there were compromises.  He knew about those compromises ahead of time, and he was willing to roll the dice.  We can educate ourselves about a situation, but there are some things only those in the program know.   At some point, it is a leap of faith. You've got to believe in yourself and hope you made the right decision based on the information at the time.  I hate to distill it down to that, but that is what I see time and time again with selecting a college and playing college baseball.

I wish your son's good friend the best, and best of luck to your son!

Like Jim T., I have not posted much since my son went to college to play in the Pac-12.  I really haven't had a lot to say as the experience has fallen so far short of expectations.   Reading this post, however, connected with me and I feel compelled to share.

The back story is that my son was highly recruited, had over 20 offers from all over the country and did what we thought was the wise thing in selecting a Power 5 school basically in our back yard. Further, it was a school that appeared to "want him" as repeatedly assured by the recruiting coordinator and backed up by a very good scholarship offer.  What could go wrong?

The answer is pretty much everything outlined by Jim T.  I will circle back to the point made about the scholarship games played by this school (though that has changed a bit now that the Pac has 4-yr commitments now.)  The first mistake we made was to rely almost entirely on the recruiting coordinator and his representations.  We didn't know any differently.  However, it was apparent when the head coach didn't know my son's name on the first day of practice.  This was simply the tip of the iceberg as the head coach didn't think that players from our area of the country knew the game and were so far behind that they couldn't catch up.

This also touches on Jim's first point about not having interest in player development.  On at least a dozen occasions the head coach told my son that he had the most tools he had ever coached and that he would play in the big leagues someday.  This happened most recently in his exit interview when the coach told him that his biggest regret was that hadn't figured out how to harness his ability and get him on the field.  He will leave the school with a total of less than 80 AB's in three seasons.  Meanwhile, the coach never took a moment to even try to develop my son and was completely disconnected.  He literally thought that I am a "bull-rider" by profession (I am an attorney BTW.)

Back to the scholarship games.  It became apparent that once the players completed their first two years, their scholarships were cut for various reasons.  Nearly all of my son's teammates had their money adjusted in some way.  Basically, once the player couldn't transfer due to NCAA rules, their money was transferred to new incoming recruits.  This happened not just with back-ups, it included starters, many of whom were later drafted.  We found out that this had been going on for a long time and was common practice.  I wasn't sure about it until it happened to my son last summer.  In short, about two weeks before he was to report I received a call from the assistant head coach.  He said it was unfortunate but that he had to pull my son's scholarship because the "other coach" had given it to the new incoming catcher.  I asked why he was telling me now not in May when he could have transferred and he said it was because they didn't know if the new guy had to take summer school and he had just passed his classes.  Basically he had just used my son as a token insurance policy for the summer without any regard to my son.  Thankfully, my son had been asked to adjust his money the year before and in exchange had signed a two year deal so he was protected.  This coach didn't think we would know about his apparently.  

I am trying to give some real life examples to support Jim's post.  The point is that this stuff actually does happen and they are important lessons.  In my son's case, he red-shirted year one and then worked hard to get his degree in three years.  As a graduate he is transferring to another D-1 school and has two years of eligibility left.  So, he gets to start over in a way and we just went back through the recruiting process.  This time, when we made the list of priorities it was simple:

1.  Go where you are wanted.  No school was considered without a direct conversation with the head coach.

2.  Be clear with coach about expectations, including playing time.  Don't be shy about what opportunity is there.  Most players only get one chance and I wouldn't buy into the "everyone competes" line.  While that is obvious and true you need to make sure that you are getting a FAIR chance to compete.  We found that many players coming in from CA and AZ were guaranteed spots.  It is hard to compete with that.

3.  Ask about whether your particular hitting (or pitching) style is in line with what the head coach wants.  In our case when evaluating the new school, I specifically asked if the head coach has a problem with hitting the ball with backspin.  Why? Because my son's previous head coach admonished him for hitting home runs in BP.  I am not making this up.  His direction to the team was to hit the top half of the ball and let the turf do the work.  This "small ball" or whatever you call it did not fit with my son's style.

4.  Location is important.  I agree with Jim's point about that as well.  If it is a high level program especially, your son will hardly ever be home.

Not trying to vent but I think there are important lessons to take from this situation and hearing about specific examples can help bring the point home.

Thanks for that honest post about your sons experience.

MTCatcherDad14: Thanks for sharing insights into your son's baseball ordeal. That stinks.

One thing I often wonder after posting on HSBW is the seeming prohibition against naming schools and coaches with whom forum members and their families have had terrible experiences. Is it fear of retribution or retaliation of some kind? Or is it just in poor taste?

Batty67 posted:

MTCatcherDad14: Thanks for sharing insights into your son's baseball ordeal. That stinks.

One thing I often wonder after posting on HSBW is the seeming prohibition against naming schools and coaches with whom forum members and their families have had terrible experiences. Is it fear of retribution or retaliation of some kind? Or is it just in poor taste?

My feeling about this, and always has been is that everyone has different experiences.  Everyones situation is different. Its not always bad, its not always good. Mistakes in recruiting can happen on both sides.  

I also have found that the percentages are higher for bad experiences vs good, and to be truthful, I believe more players chose programs for the wrong reasons, not on purpose, but just because that is what happens. For some, that coach he is speaking of could be the greatest since sliced bread.

I would suggest that you send a pm for that information. It could just be that someones player just committed to that program, and could pass up a great opportunity for THEM.

JMO

I read an article several years ago 50% of D1 players transfer to a second school to finish their playing days. Both coaches and players/parents make mistakes in recruiting. Plus you have 35 players believing they will be the 18-20 who get reasonable playing time. 

I agree naming the school publicly is not a great idea. Experiences vary. Not all people are onjective. I know a kid who started freshman year, platooned soph year, was a bench player junior year and cut before senior year. Some might come out ripping on this experience. His family and he tells people he got a great education and had some positive baseball moments.

Son just finished year and one of our best players (actually led conference in hitting) was. juice transfer that started at a D1 school.  He and his parents couldn't be happier now.  I have faith that the happy ending is yet to come for MTCatcherdad's boy.

There is a tremendous amount of wisdom and information in this thread, which frankly I did not understand when going through the recruiting cycle with my son. Once you understand the numbers it becomes clear that there are more disappointed players than happy when you look at the numbers of freshmen who come in and how many are playing in their Sr (or Jr for power programs). Which is why, IMO, you have to pick a school where you would be happy if you take baseball out of the equation, particularly if you are not a high draft prospect. This is counter intuitive for players and parents but it is something you seriously have to take into account, unless your plan B is to move to another school. 

There is so much going on in the lives of these young men during this time in their lives, so if you can step back analyze the odds, you have to consider that it won't work out for your son so have that in the equation in your selection process.  

RJM posted:

I read an article several years ago 50% of D1 players transfer to a second school to finish their playing days. Both coaches and players/parents make mistakes in recruiting. Plus you have 35 players believing they will be the 18-20 who get reasonable playing time. 

I agree naming the school publicly is not a great idea. Experiences vary. Not all people are onjective. I know a kid who started freshman year, platooned soph year, was a bench player junior year and cut before senior year. Some might come out ripping on this experience. His family and he tells people he got a great education and had some positive baseball moments.

I get that. But does fear of retaliation or retribution factor in some way? I've been on these boards for 4-5 years and like to think of myself as a regular, but there seems to be, for lack of better descriptor, an "apologist proclivity" among many on these boards for college coaches as a rule, perhaps a bit less for HS coaches.

Batty, I think this is a good question, albeit somewhat off the OP's topic.  I think it may be different for everyone but in my opinion there are a few reasons that individual coaches and programs are not named.

One would be simple fear of retribution and harm to the athlete.  Trust me, I have a lot to say about my son's past program but I probably won't.  It is clear that the inner circle of baseball is very small and it comes around frequently.  Basically every coach and scout out there either knows each other personally or they have one degree of separation from that person.  The truth is that the athlete has an inferior position with respect to issues.  It is almost always assumed that the coach is right and the athlete is the problem.   If something were to be brought up in public, the inner circle is going to side with the coach and the athlete is held to blame and likely ostracized.  No one wants "that guy" on their team and so the athlete needs to stay quiet or risk this treatment.

Ironically, I think the flip-side of this and another reason for hesitating to name a program or coach individually is that there usually is not a fair opportunity for the coach to respond.  I personally do believe that there are typically two sides to every argument.  A public forum doesn't necessarily give the coach a fair opportunity to respond.  This may seem contrary to my first point but as a fairly objective person, I don't want to make an accusation unless I know it is true and not simply based on what I am told by a third party (unless I can verify it independently.) 

Also, I ask myself what is actually going to be gained from naming the program?  Revenge?  For me that isn't enough.  If someone were to contact me and ask specifically, I would honestly tell them what I know.  However, I also know that just naming names in a forum or other public setting really won't change anything and probably will just bring attention to me or my son, which I don't want.  

I posted earlier because I think there are important things for parents and recruited athletes to understand.  If someone really wants to figure out the school they probably can.  Otherwise, I am just relaying information that I can verify to this community in the hopes that it gives someone perspective on some of the things that really do occur on these teams.  As a digression, if I really wanted to take the time, I probably could write a book on how I think the NCAA harms baseball players with the scholarship system and the restrictions on transfers  Don't get me started there...

Fair enough. I'm off to Philadelphia for a conference and probably won't be able to check in as much anyhow.

You can  have it both ways.  By not naming names MTCatcherDad can ensure that a search for his son's name or the coach or the school doesn't bring up this thread, and that's a good thing for many reasons. However it takes just a minute or two to figure out who the player is and where he played based on the info here, so it's not like it's a closely held secret.

Best of luck to your son next year, MTCatcherDad

It's hard to pick the right one.  Sometimes the classes will be too rigorous, or the baseball program too stressful.  Those are probably the two biggest factors.  Athletes will only get a glimpse of the true college experience compared to academics, so it's not always fair to judge a school based on their college life.  At University I never met a single athlete other than a roommate who only hung out with her teammates. She ended up leaving after a year as she decided she didn't want to play basketball anymore (despite being our star player, she loved art more) and wanted to go to a school closer to home and her bf (now husband).  She now makes 4-5x more than a WNBA player so it all worked out.