Bad day to be Manny.
First, you get a 50 game suspension and lose $8 mil.
Next, Yahoo Sports publishes an article on the web that suggests the drug you took was for the lack of ability to perform in the bedroom, instead of taking viagra or cialis.
So...not only do you lose $8 mil and 1/3 of the season, but millions now know you have performance problems of a whole different kind.....
I dont think mainstream stoppage is anywhere near, sure maybe with steriods, but from being close to the game and having friends at all different levels and talking to them im willing to say 75% of players are atleast on HGH
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
if a doctor prescribed this item for him. wouldn't that trump any banned substance rule? i would think a person's health would come first.
If a player actually medicallly needs a banned medication, there is a process to get a Theraputic Use Exception (TUE). Then they can test positive without a problem.
The incidence of ADD among ballplayers is very large compared to the general population.....but you can't get a TUE for greenies.
...this just in.....
it's a drug used to wean men off steroids
...that is all....
it's a drug used to wean men off steroids
...that is all....
Why should athletes be role models for conduct off the field?quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by RJM:Manny is one of the best role models in baseball on preparation and approach for hitting. As for behavior I'll be the role model for my son over anyone else regardless of their profession.quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:
No surprises. He was already the worst example for young boys that MLB could offer.
Yeah, right. Good luck on that role model thing.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:Why should athletes be role models for conduct off the field?quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by RJM:Manny is one of the best role models in baseball on preparation and approach for hitting. As for behavior I'll be the role model for my son over anyone else regardless of their profession.quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:
No surprises. He was already the worst example for young boys that MLB could offer.
Yeah, right. Good luck on that role model thing.
If you are one of the people that don't think they should there would be nothing I could say that would change your mind. I'm not really saying they all should be role models. They just shouldn't set BAD examples. Not all of us are lucky enough to have son's that idolize Daddy and there's really not much out there for kids as far as heros goes except for sports figures. If you don't think our kids are following examples set by sports figures, I disagree.
All players have coverage so they can see any doctor and that doctor may not have any clue what is banned and not banned.
Some players, to my understanding, believe a doctors RX can exempt the use of anything. Not true.
I don't think every drug is tested for, but higher or lower levels of testosterone is cause for concern, maybe for further testing? His not fighting the suspension meand he did wrong and knows it.
3FG is correct, you can apply for a medical exception if medically necessary, and before testing you need to show proof of prescription and discuss.
This is a bad blow for baseball, Torre and the Dodgers. Manny is an aging player, probably had some health issues and followed someone's advice, who knows if he followed it correctly,
but he is an adult and responsible for his actions. The doctor having knowledge or not has nothing to do with it. I am going to beleive he never used anything before, his age may be showing. He's been too consistant.
I used to never understand it all, but having a player who has been injured and watching him struggle to get back to normal, I can see why many do what they do to get back into the game. The only thing is the Manny's of the world do not have to resort to taking steroids, if you are hurt you are hurt. Manny seems like a guy who would take the easier way out to get better. I'll bet his holding out for more $$ had more to do with what just happened.
I have always been a huge Manny fan, I am disappointed.
In the best interest of baseball, as players age, it's best to leave the game with your head up and reputation in tact.
JMO.
Some players, to my understanding, believe a doctors RX can exempt the use of anything. Not true.
I don't think every drug is tested for, but higher or lower levels of testosterone is cause for concern, maybe for further testing? His not fighting the suspension meand he did wrong and knows it.
3FG is correct, you can apply for a medical exception if medically necessary, and before testing you need to show proof of prescription and discuss.
This is a bad blow for baseball, Torre and the Dodgers. Manny is an aging player, probably had some health issues and followed someone's advice, who knows if he followed it correctly,
but he is an adult and responsible for his actions. The doctor having knowledge or not has nothing to do with it. I am going to beleive he never used anything before, his age may be showing. He's been too consistant. I used to never understand it all, but having a player who has been injured and watching him struggle to get back to normal, I can see why many do what they do to get back into the game. The only thing is the Manny's of the world do not have to resort to taking steroids, if you are hurt you are hurt. Manny seems like a guy who would take the easier way out to get better. I'll bet his holding out for more $$ had more to do with what just happened.
I have always been a huge Manny fan, I am disappointed.
In the best interest of baseball, as players age, it's best to leave the game with your head up and reputation in tact.
JMO.
First of all he was not using steroids or HGH---he purportedly got these "meds' for erectile dysfunction---he could have asked for a waiver such as the ADD players do
Doing what Manny has done is totally different than using steroids
Doing what Manny has done is totally different than using steroids
quote:Originally posted by ZacksDad:
What I can't believe is all you people that can't believe this.
I have a client who is in the majors and his exact words to me on the subject were:
"About 2/3's of us are on it".
And I disagree with you too. The key word here being "us". If your client had been a non-user, I'm guessing he would say "About 2/3 of us don't use anything."
I have a few questions. As a Medical Technologist that knows a little about the testing that's being done, how are that many players escaping detection? Why would Selig, being in the position he's in with regard to steroids, ever consider allowing the problem to continue with the lights of the public and even Congress shining on him. And finally, since Canseco's book, we've watched MLB players shrink right before our eyes and HR totals drop dramatically. If 2/3 of the players are continuing to use PEDS are they just not working anymore or what?
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that 2/3 of all MLB players take some kind of "supplement" but not illegal PEDs.
I'd also look for another client.
TR,
I am pretty sure that MLB has an allowed list of drugs for that purpose.
He could show proof that it was medically necessary and I am sure his agent would have advised him to do that.
I am pretty sure that MLB has an allowed list of drugs for that purpose.
He could show proof that it was medically necessary and I am sure his agent would have advised him to do that.
My son doesn't idolize me. He respects me. He's learned how to carry himself from observing me. For example, if you're going to tell a kid not to drink, don't get buzzed in front of him. If you want to see him treat women properly, treat your wife properly. My son has been around enough major college and pro athletes to seperate the athlete from the person. One pro he idolized as an athlete he could see was a jerk as a person. As my son grows and matures I prefer any public figures of influence be leaders and great minds, not athletes.quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by RJM:Why should athletes be role models for conduct off the field?quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by RJM:Manny is one of the best role models in baseball on preparation and approach for hitting. As for behavior I'll be the role model for my son over anyone else regardless of their profession.quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:
No surprises. He was already the worst example for young boys that MLB could offer.
Yeah, right. Good luck on that role model thing.
If you are one of the people that don't think they should there would be nothing I could say that would change your mind. I'm not really saying they all should be role models. They just shouldn't set BAD examples. Not all of us are lucky enough to have son's that idolize Daddy and there's really not much out there for kids as far as heros goes except for sports figures. If you don't think our kids are following examples set by sports figures, I disagree.
TPM
Interestingly his Agent, Mr Boras, so far has been very quiet on this---perhaps Manny, in his infinite wisdom, just went and did this on his own and flat out screwed up---now the next question are any of these elemnts in cialis and viagra, even to a small degree?
Interestingly his Agent, Mr Boras, so far has been very quiet on this---perhaps Manny, in his infinite wisdom, just went and did this on his own and flat out screwed up---now the next question are any of these elemnts in cialis and viagra, even to a small degree?
Help.... I'am filling out my All-Roid team. Roger, A-rod, Manny , Palmero, Barry, Giambi, Sammy, McGwire, Santiago, Caminiti. I need a 2nd baseman. Do you think Mcqwire can play cf?
TR,
He would have only needed his agent's advice after the discovery, on how to handle the press, players don't have to consult with agents on their personal lives, they consult them about business.
He defintetly screwed up and it wasn't by taking viagra or cialis.
Interesting tidbit is that he didn't TEST, he got caught.
Torre is a class act.
He would have only needed his agent's advice after the discovery, on how to handle the press, players don't have to consult with agents on their personal lives, they consult them about business.
He defintetly screwed up and it wasn't by taking viagra or cialis.
Interesting tidbit is that he didn't TEST, he got caught.
Torre is a class act.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM
Interestingly his Agent, Mr Boras, so far has been very quiet on this---perhaps Manny, in his infinite wisdom, just went and did this on his own and flat out screwed up---now the next question are any of these elemnts in cialis and viagra, even to a small degree?
Human chorion gonadotropin (hCG) is the hormone excreted by women during pregnancy. That is what the pregnancy test kits that are sold in drug stores are testing for. NO it is not contained in any of the erectile dysfunction (which was, incidentally, brought on by the obesity epidemic) drugs on the market.
I need to double check with Google but I seem to recall a Tour de France participant being diqualified for hCG a few years back and it's my understanding that it can be used when cycling off steroids to regain testosterone levels (which is one of the things hCG does; stimulates testosterone production).
quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by ZacksDad:
What I can't believe is all you people that can't believe this.
I have a client who is in the majors and his exact words to me on the subject were:
"About 2/3's of us are on it".
And I disagree with you too. The key word here being "us". If your client had been a non-user, I'm guessing he would say "About 2/3 of us don't use anything."
I have a few questions. As a Medical Technologist that knows a little about the testing that's being done, how are that many players escaping detection? Why would Selig, being in the position he's in with regard to steroids, ever consider allowing the problem to continue with the lights of the public and even Congress shining on him. And finally, since Canseco's book, we've watched MLB players shrink right before our eyes and HR totals drop dramatically. If 2/3 of the players are continuing to use PEDS are they just not working anymore or what?
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that 2/3 of all MLB players take some kind of "supplement" but not illegal PEDs.
I'd also look for another client.
I would imagine a lot of then pass the drug test even though they are on them. I know from being around the iron game, there ways around the test-and this is just for average income "normal" everyday people. Probably a lot more elaborate means when you have as much money as most bb players do.
This came from him, but I have another client, who is an AS pitcher and has been for many years, and he pretty much echoed the same thing.
Why on earth would I run away multi millionares as clients when I am in the sales industry LOL.
If Manny's doctor really prescribed it, don't you think that doctor would be on the tube, 24/7, saying so? Or Manny can't afford a few hours of the good doc's time? Yea, right.
I'm not buying it. Another cheater/liar. Add him to the long list.
p.s. T.R., I admire the consistency of your allegiance to lots of players on these things, but sooner or later, you've got to concede that lots of these guys cheat, then lie about it. Manny is just the latest. Sadly, he won't be the last.
I'm not buying it. Another cheater/liar. Add him to the long list.
p.s. T.R., I admire the consistency of your allegiance to lots of players on these things, but sooner or later, you've got to concede that lots of these guys cheat, then lie about it. Manny is just the latest. Sadly, he won't be the last.
quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM
Interestingly his Agent, Mr Boras, so far has been very quiet on this---perhaps Manny, in his infinite wisdom, just went and did this on his own and flat out screwed up---now the next question are any of these elemnts in cialis and viagra, even to a small degree?
Human chorion gonadotropin (hCG) is the hormone excreted by women during pregnancy. That is what the pregnancy test kits that are sold in drug stores are testing for. NO it is not contained in any of the erectile dysfunction (which was, incidentally, brought on by the obesity epidemic) drugs on the market.
I need to double check with Google but I seem to recall a Tour de France participant being diqualified for hCG a few years back and it's my understanding that it can be used when cycling off steroids to regain testosterone levels (which is one of the things hCG does; stimulates testosterone production).
that's what I said.
Something was shrinking and it wasn't his ego.
Interesting - can't test for HGH just yet, but can detect when cycling off.
hokie
You need to check your bias at the door----where did I say I condoned what he did---what I said was that he did not test positive for roids---please don't your bias regarding me get in the way of your reading
You need to check your bias at the door----where did I say I condoned what he did---what I said was that he did not test positive for roids---please don't your bias regarding me get in the way of your reading
Sox fans are still obsessed with Manny whether it be positive or negative. Here's a Globe poll:
Do you believe Manny Ramirez when he says his positive drug test stemmed from medication he was given by his doctor?
No way! ... That's the oldest excuse in the book. Come on, let's not be so naive. He was on the juice, the only question now is how long he was using.
75.5%
Yes I do ... I think it was an innocent, albeit idiotic, mistake. It's just Manny Being Manny all over again.
24.5%
Total votes: 18055
How tarnished is Manny's legacy in the wake of this news?
It will be tarnished only if it's proven that Manny took steroids. If he can prove he indeed violated the drug policy by mistakenly taking medication he thought was OK, his legacy can still be salvaged.
48.4%
Completely tarnished ... even if he can prove he was taking medication given to him by a doctor, that doesn't matter. His performance on the field is changed forever in my eyes.
33.6%
This does not change my opinion of Manny. Because of the era we're in, you have to assume everyone is guilty of taking performance-enhancing substances to some degree. What makes Manny different?
17.9%
Total votes: 14907
Do you think Manny Ramirez was taking performance-enhancing drugs while he was with the Red Sox?
Yes
65.1%
No
28.8%
Of course not! Look, Manny just made an innocent mistake here. Give the guy a break and lay off accusations.
6.1%
Total votes: 14983
As hard as it is to think about it, do you think this news in any way taints the two World Series titles the Red Sox won while Manny was in Boston?
No, no, a million times no ... that's quite a stretch.
74.6%
Yes ... if he is taking banned substances now, what makes you think he wasn't taking them when he was with the Red Sox?
25.4%
Total votes: 12186
Do you believe Manny Ramirez when he says his positive drug test stemmed from medication he was given by his doctor?
No way! ... That's the oldest excuse in the book. Come on, let's not be so naive. He was on the juice, the only question now is how long he was using.
75.5%
Yes I do ... I think it was an innocent, albeit idiotic, mistake. It's just Manny Being Manny all over again.
24.5%
Total votes: 18055
How tarnished is Manny's legacy in the wake of this news?
It will be tarnished only if it's proven that Manny took steroids. If he can prove he indeed violated the drug policy by mistakenly taking medication he thought was OK, his legacy can still be salvaged.
48.4%
Completely tarnished ... even if he can prove he was taking medication given to him by a doctor, that doesn't matter. His performance on the field is changed forever in my eyes.
33.6%
This does not change my opinion of Manny. Because of the era we're in, you have to assume everyone is guilty of taking performance-enhancing substances to some degree. What makes Manny different?
17.9%
Total votes: 14907
Do you think Manny Ramirez was taking performance-enhancing drugs while he was with the Red Sox?
Yes
65.1%
No
28.8%
Of course not! Look, Manny just made an innocent mistake here. Give the guy a break and lay off accusations.
6.1%
Total votes: 14983
As hard as it is to think about it, do you think this news in any way taints the two World Series titles the Red Sox won while Manny was in Boston?
No, no, a million times no ... that's quite a stretch.
74.6%
Yes ... if he is taking banned substances now, what makes you think he wasn't taking them when he was with the Red Sox?
25.4%
Total votes: 12186
TR, no bias here. Heck, I like you just fine.
I may not always agree, but I can disagree without dislike. It's necessary in my line of work.
I may not always agree, but I can disagree without dislike. It's necessary in my line of work.
hokie
I keep forgetting that you are an attorney
I keep forgetting that you are an attorney
manny can hit............but he'll never win any spelling bee's.
It appears that Manny got what he deserved.
He wasn't exactly screaming and jumping and down with that extremely vague statement he released.
Just walking back to the dugout after a good call.IMO
He wasn't exactly screaming and jumping and down with that extremely vague statement he released.
Just walking back to the dugout after a good call.IMO
You know, Manny having said that he passed 15 tests is only a testament that the tests are getting better... not that he has not been using all along.
The Players Union needs to wake up and fully cooperate with testing like the USTA does. Andre Aggasi used to say that he would not let anyone even open his water bottle for him. He took full resonsiblity and control for what went into his body.
Personally, I am ****ed that any MLB player is using. All these aging guys making millions using cheating methods are cheating the kids coming up who are clean and better.
Players Union, wise up! You fans are getting sick of this.
The Players Union needs to wake up and fully cooperate with testing like the USTA does. Andre Aggasi used to say that he would not let anyone even open his water bottle for him. He took full resonsiblity and control for what went into his body.
Personally, I am ****ed that any MLB player is using. All these aging guys making millions using cheating methods are cheating the kids coming up who are clean and better.
Players Union, wise up! You fans are getting sick of this.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
.....he did not test positive for roids....
Well, that seemed to be true this morning, but the story is still being written, with new alledged details coming out. Probably MLB won't ever make an official statement, but ESPN.com includes the following:
"However, testing by Major League Baseball showed that Ramirez had testosterone in his body that was not natural and came from an artificial source, two people with knowledge of the case told ESPN's Mark Fainaru-Wada and T.J. Quinn. The sources said that in addition to the artificial testosterone, Ramirez was identified as using the female fertility drug human chorionic gonadotropin, or hCG.
The sources said Ramirez was suspended for using hCG because baseball had documentation to prove his use of the drug. A Major League Baseball source said Ramirez's representatives indicated they would fight a suspension for using artificial testosterone."
Testosterone is a steroid, and artificial testosterone should be considered "roids".
Manny apparently tested positive for exogenous T, but rather than fight over the interpretation of the carbon isotope ratio test for exogenous T, MLB prefered to suspend based on a paper trail for hCG. Saves everybody time, money, and confusion.
So the suspension is for hGC, but the bigger offense is artificial testosterone, according to ESPN. The whole article explains in much greater detail than I have quoted here.
Manny article
I don't believe Manny was cheating. He was taking those fertility drugs so he can get pregnant and be able to take off the summer. I don't think it had anything to do with performance enhancement
Will there be anyone left that our sons can look up to?
.
quote:Originally posted by Mom's a Fan:
Will there be anyone left that our sons can look up to?
RJM
There is no way anyone is going to convince me that a guy with this much to lose is going to put anything in his body by accident that is going to put it to risk. No way. These guys before they take anything make sure its not something that is going to cause them to test positive. If they do take something that will cause them to test positive they take something to mask that positive test. That is why "masking agents" are banned substances as well.
The only way to get this under control is to have a zero tolerance approach. The only way to get players to understand that it is not going to be tolerated is to send the message that anyone and everyone is fair game. Heres the deal. It doesnt matter if he took it by accident or not. It doesnt matter if he is "Just being Manny." He failed the test - PERIOD. If you start making exceptions for this and that you end up with a failed policy that players will believe they as well can skirt when their time comes.
These are big boys making millions of dollars. Here is a simple solution. Stop putting **** like this in your body and you wont have to worry about testing positive. The game and its credibility is bigger than Manny and bigger than anyone else in the game. Sooner or later these guys are going to have to figure that one out. Until then keep on suspending them , start banning them and have a zero tolerance policy. Otherwise stop testing and let them all do whatever they want to do. You cant have it both ways.
If this guy is so stupid to put something in his body that will cause him to test positive without making sure before he took it then so be it. Dam he has millions of dollars at his disposal hire someone to advise you. I am beginning to believe that this is a culture that is much deeper than many thought. I am starting to believe Canseco when he made the statements he made.
As far as looking up to them -They are entertainers. They are not role models to be looked up to. I look up to the men and women in Afghanistan , Iraq and all over the world that put their life on the line to protect our way of life. I look up to the people that sacrifice for others. A 19 year old young man stands guard on the DMZ tonight and knows his chances of living if a war breaks out are very slim but he stands there for others. If I am going to look up to someone you can bet it will be them first and others like them. Lets keep this in perspective. They are entertainers who happen to be very good at something we enjoy and love. They are not heroes , role models or even in the same ballpark. What type of person you are has nothing to do with your ability to play a game.
The only way to get this under control is to have a zero tolerance approach. The only way to get players to understand that it is not going to be tolerated is to send the message that anyone and everyone is fair game. Heres the deal. It doesnt matter if he took it by accident or not. It doesnt matter if he is "Just being Manny." He failed the test - PERIOD. If you start making exceptions for this and that you end up with a failed policy that players will believe they as well can skirt when their time comes.
These are big boys making millions of dollars. Here is a simple solution. Stop putting **** like this in your body and you wont have to worry about testing positive. The game and its credibility is bigger than Manny and bigger than anyone else in the game. Sooner or later these guys are going to have to figure that one out. Until then keep on suspending them , start banning them and have a zero tolerance policy. Otherwise stop testing and let them all do whatever they want to do. You cant have it both ways.
If this guy is so stupid to put something in his body that will cause him to test positive without making sure before he took it then so be it. Dam he has millions of dollars at his disposal hire someone to advise you. I am beginning to believe that this is a culture that is much deeper than many thought. I am starting to believe Canseco when he made the statements he made.
As far as looking up to them -They are entertainers. They are not role models to be looked up to. I look up to the men and women in Afghanistan , Iraq and all over the world that put their life on the line to protect our way of life. I look up to the people that sacrifice for others. A 19 year old young man stands guard on the DMZ tonight and knows his chances of living if a war breaks out are very slim but he stands there for others. If I am going to look up to someone you can bet it will be them first and others like them. Lets keep this in perspective. They are entertainers who happen to be very good at something we enjoy and love. They are not heroes , role models or even in the same ballpark. What type of person you are has nothing to do with your ability to play a game.
Coach
Great post!!!
Don't you think it curious that his agent Boras has not been heard from?
Great post!!!
Don't you think it curious that his agent Boras has not been heard from?
A different view of the bigger picture...
I was at the Dodger game Thursday night. It did really appear to me that the entire team, down to Torre himself, had sluggish, depressed body language. The spark was not there. The fans seemed ordinary, but there also was no real spark. Not sure if I was just reading stuff into this, but that was my take on it. And of course, the Dodgers lost - so....
I was at the Dodger game Thursday night. It did really appear to me that the entire team, down to Torre himself, had sluggish, depressed body language. The spark was not there. The fans seemed ordinary, but there also was no real spark. Not sure if I was just reading stuff into this, but that was my take on it. And of course, the Dodgers lost - so....
They can look up to fathers, uncles, grandfathers and people you trust in the community. Why look up to an athlete? I'm glad my son learned from personal experience with Allen Iverson when he was young. He still admired his ability to play basketball.quote:Originally posted by Mom's a Fan:
Will there be anyone left that our sons can look up to?