Marshall v. Mills v. House v. et al

Tom House & the National Pitching Assoc -- Allow me to put the first oar in the water. My son started taking pitchng lessons back in 2004 from a local coach who is heavily influenced by Tom House and the NPA. From my own experience as a Pitcher, and the subsequent shoulder injuries, what we were learning made a lot of sense, and my son has enjoyed a great deal of success. We have attended camps led by Coach House and the NPA Team in 2006 & 2007, and have become avid believers in the NPA Pitching Biomechanics, training & rehab protocols.

We understand there are lots of folks who think that Coach House and the NPA are way off track; but have not met any naysayers who have stayed abreast of the research and teachings of the NPA in the last 4-5 years. It seems that most people who have a negative opinion, formed that opinion some years ago, and have not taken a fresh look in recent years.

I would be interested in hearing constructive critiques of the current research and teaching of Coach House and the NPA. My experience, my son's experience, and my orthopedic surgeons all tell me that the NPA Way is the best way to develop young Pitchers. But I am open to other opinions, preferably backed by practical success, and sound scientific & medical research.

quote:

Originally posted by rugger5:
We understand there are lots of folks who think that Coach House and the NPA are way off track; but have not met any naysayers who have stayed abreast of the research and teachings of the NPA in the last 4-5 years. It seems that most people who have a negative opinion, formed that opinion some years ago, and have not taken a fresh look in recent years.

Agreed.

I am not sure about the NPA approach but I am a firm believer in the Doctor TAL approach. My son has used the TAL approach since he was four years old.

For those of you unaware of the TAL, it stands for Throw A Lot and yes, it is something I have made up on the fly.

Whats up these days with all these different throwing programs? It seems to me to be a thing of trends I guess. Kind of like being rebulican or democrat. What ever happened to the old school way of throwing and rehab where you just went out and threw a lot and then when the arm had discomfort you stopped until you were healed and able to throw again?

Back then nobody taught early pronation of the arm or anything because for the most part it just happened naturally from throwing a lot. Seems to me that some wise guy decided to start taping pitchers to see what they "naturally" do and then began teaching what should obviously come naturally. Not that anything is wrong with that approach, but it seems to have gotten out of control.

I always get people asking me where my son gets his pitching lessons from because of his ability. I tell them he gets his lessons from Doctor Concrete (the concrete stairs he endlessly throws against at our home), and that Doctor Concrete likes him to visit for at least an hour a day during good weather.

I don't know and hate to put a damper on the new thread but it just seems humerous to me that there are so many different pitching schools these days that I wonder if people should just go back to old school and just go out and throw and tell themselves constantly that they are good and that they need to push harder and throw harder. Maybe we will see some old school mechanics (raw and yet beautiful) on the good old mound again!

House with Nolan Ryan and my son's doctor examined the throwing motion with the aid of computers and has excellent understanding of the motion.
Some pitchers are naturally good throwers but most are not. Your laissez faire approach might be fine but when you compare a polished pitcher against a rough work in progress it is night and day.
Just cause you can drive a car doesn't mean you are ready to go to the Daytona 500.

G-Man -- I agree with you about getting kids out throwing more. For that matter, kids these days don't do a lot of the other things we used to do like rake grass, push lawn mowers, push wheel barrels, and other good muscle building stuff.

As a "Dr TAL" disciple myself, I used to throw tennis balls and lacrosse balls up against the chimney for hours. Just because it was fun to do ... much to my parents' chagrin.

Tom House tells folks that kids today Pitch too much, and don't throw enough. Their joints don't have the strength and stability to bear the stress of all the pitching they do. That IS part of the problem with why so many young arms seem to wind up in surgery.

That said, there is a lot to be said for teaching kids the proper mechanics for pitching, so as to achieve the greatest effectiveness, with the least risk of injury. In my own experience, my orthopedic surgeon was able to guess how my HS Coach had tried to make me pitch from the nature of the damage to my shoulder. He was also able to explain why the genetic make-up of my arm could not function as my coach had required without breaking down. Good info, received too late.

There are lots of "gurus" out there, and plenty of advocates who can share, compare, and contrast the different ideas in cirulation these days. My goal was to offer a central place for that dialogue, rather than to have it continually rehashed in threads on other topics.

Come on rugger, are you trying to take our fun away?

In all seriousness I have found tidbits of “truth”, at least for my son, from all of the so-called experts. What annoys me is that some (Mills/Marshall in particular) appear to proclaim that they are the “prophet of pitching” seem to decree that “I am the one and only my ways are sound” Well I am sorry this is not true, and in many cases their ways are flawed. In the end you must sift through all the BS and find what works best for you.

There is a tremendous amount of material that is now available on the Internet, books and videos and it just takes time and patience to read through the material and use what works and toss what does not.

All the marketing is wonderful but it comes down to results. At least House had the guts to put himself in a position where he had to produce. Unfortunately, this season the pitchers at USC did not do that well.

It is ironic to me that when asked, all of the professionals and professional coaches I have met (By no means a huge percentage...but notable that it has been consistantly the same) say the same thing when a guru's name is brought up (Usually by a parent who has a cash investment involved); "Huh, who?...What does he teach?"...The pro's that I have met do share a couple of things in common, first they show humility (They understand that tomorrow they may learn something that they didn't know..ala Houses apparent evolvement which has been heavily criticized), while at the same time having a confidence in the success of the program they teach...I've never heard an MLB pitching coach spend any time being critical of others in the same position...Why? They got the gig.
What it comes down to is the dollars of the parents who believe that Jr. is the next Nolan Ryan. I think that each has a knowledge of pitching and if given a talented kid to work with personally could indeed show improvement (With the exception of Dr. Mikle Marshall..but only in my ignorance...I haven't seen evidence of success on that front...but understand that it is right around the corner...after 20 or so years..). As to their literature...I believe that it is what the kid puts into it, he may show improvement...if he "buys' into the program and dedicates himself to learning and putting it to practice...if not, it becomes an expensive coffee table book.
As to House who through his success has become the whipping boy for all the other guru's (Mostly because he said he liked Poor Mark Priors mechanics). He tends to show those traits I mentioned about the other professionals mentioned earlier..he ignores the barbs, he endeavors to instruct, he evolves and sticks with his program while not being critical of others...I'm not an NPA member, nor do I anticipate being one, but I believe it is admirable that his group attempts to train on a large scale basis, about arm health and maintenance (Admittedly for money..but at least his group goes out amongst the masses) and preaches for what is now considered by his group the least injurious mechanics (Of course this will change over time).

I think from a consumers perspective the best guru is the one who has your money.
And there really isn't any hope that these guys won't be brought up in future threads...including "He Whose Name is Unmentionable" on this forum and the much savaged Chris O'Leary (Who may in fact be laughing all the way to the bank because he took all of the harassement from every forum I've ever been on, but managed to direct enough traffic in kids to his own site that he now offers 3 tiers (Read that as payment levels) of analysis and doesn't have to take the dookie from the "Old Time Experts" on any of the forums anymore (The ultimate irony to me ....).

Chris was always in it for the money. As long as there are gulible people you can sell almost anything.
The most I ever paid was $100. for 4 lessons whichis all you need, During those lessons I videoed the whole process. I also read Houses books at the library and onlt purchased the Louisville book on pitching. I watched countless minor league pitching/ bullpens and learned what was important. I like houses analysis of the pitching mechanics but also recognize that it doesn't apply 100% to all types of pitchers. It applied to my son and most other guys I know.
Anyone who gets sucked in by this garbage is a fool. Pro scouts I know laugh at some of the stuff that goes on. Everyone thinking that because they learb from an expert it will make them the next Nolan ryan are kidding themselves.
Genetics play a large part in success and failure as a pitcher.

BBhd, it's a ready-made world..Chris understands marketing...so he applies it, people pay..ca-ching.
My point is exactly that the pros just shake their heads..they see guys pay many hundreds even thousands hoping for a "coach-in-a-box"...zen secrets no one but the paying public knows ...Pro's know, no short-cuts, only hard work, desire and skill....I admit I've paid...more than you...don't feel cheated either, was it necessary? I'd only know if I didn't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
All the marketing is wonderful but it comes down to results. At least House had the guts to put himself in a position where he had to produce. Unfortunately, this season the pitchers at USC did not do that well.

My understanding is that USC's pitching staff is rather young. It will be interesting to see how they do next year and the year after.

Although I don't subscribe to any one guru's teachings, I do respect how House has not gotten dragged down into the bashing that some others do, even in the face of criticism from many angles. This alone helps to raise his credibility to me.