Maryland and athletic program mgmt

Their baseball coach left 2 years ago to west virginia I think..some players followed him there....seemed like a nice enough bloke when we did their camp back then...and their baseball program seemed well run..that kind of abuse in the football program should be illegal..could be some criminality involved if authorities start investigating as they well may...looks like the AD is trying to save himself by feigning ignorance...don't think it will work..the coming lawsuit will be well into the 25 million or more range..heads are gonna roll..

Interesting article on ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/college-fo...oxic-coach-dj-durkin

Looks like the football coach was just a little over the top (bullying) in his tactics.

I understand wanting to motivate players but using food as a weapon is way beyond necessary.

I just don't see the need for such tactics.  Even the military doesn't go that far.  Yes, the DI's yelled at us and pushed us recruits hard but never used food as a weapon.  Had a saying in the army, "We can't make you do anything, but you'll wish you had."

Scary stuff.  I don't doubt that many D1 football programs take things too far, not this far necessarily but still too far.... There is conditioning, and then being challenged mentally, and there is a line many step over that is abuse or borderlines on abuse.

Dare I then mention all the steroids in NCAA Football that coaches look the other way on?  Or all the painkillers used?  Big time college football is a meat grinder.

But I'm a hypocrite, I know, because I love to watch it.  Hard to wrap my mind around that sometimes.  

I grew up playing FB with a steady diet of negative reinforcement but what I've read crosses the line (and the food stuff is childish, dangerous and should be disqualifying for any coach).  

My initial reaction to these sorts of episodes is to highlight the names of the folks in chain of command and try to avoid them for my '22, no matter which school might employ them in the future.  Again, not sure if this is the correct reaction.  Has anyone dealt w a similar situation w/r/t their sons (issues within an athletic dept)?

CatcherDadNY posted:

Their baseball coach left 2 years ago to west virginia I think..some players followed him there....seemed like a nice enough bloke when we did their camp back then...and their baseball program seemed well run..that kind of abuse in the football program should be illegal..could be some criminality involved if authorities start investigating as they well may...looks like the AD is trying to save himself by feigning ignorance...don't think it will work..the coming lawsuit will be well into the 25 million or more range..heads are gonna roll..

The former coach is at Michigan I think and extremely well regarded AFAIK.  Agree that heads will most certainly roll when this is said and done.  Tragic that this situation contributed to the death of a young man.    

Former Maryland coach John Szefc is now at Virginia Tech.

FoxDad posted:

Interesting article on ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/college-fo...oxic-coach-dj-durkin

Looks like the football coach was just a little over the top (bullying) in his tactics.

I understand wanting to motivate players but using food as a weapon is way beyond necessary.

I just don't see the need for such tactics.  Even the military doesn't go that far.  Yes, the DI's yelled at us and pushed us recruits hard but never used food as a weapon.  Had a saying in the army, "We can't make you do anything, but you'll wish you had."

Reprehensible. They should fire a bunch of these guys.  Absolutely horrible...

"I am curious whether more experienced folks can lend their thoughts on this question - how do you react to NON-baseball dysfunction or bad behavior at a target school."

Unfortunately it is hard to have this kind of information exposed until a tragedy like this happened at Maryland.  It is rare to find social media or other places where kids or families talk about situations like this. And as others noted, football is bit more crazy when it comes to expectations.  But make no mistake, physical conditioning is also a huge part of college baseball and players' toughness is going to be tested.

When you do get down to narrowing your list of seriously interested schools, one thing I did is start saving a PDF of the team rosters (old versions of the rosters typically disappear from websites).  Then you can start tracking the transfers and disappearing players.   While the reported transfer rate is very high for baseball (as high as 40% for D1), seeing how much churn there is in a roster can be telling.  I'm not suggesting transfers relate to abusive practices, but that is one way to get an idea of a team's dynamics.  You can also look at stats pages to see how many kids got opportunities to play in a season.  If a kid is playing but transfers anyway that could be telling that there are other issues.

Then when it gets closer to making a final decision, be sure you do the visit and talk to the coaches about the program and training regimen.  The coach should be willing to introduce you to the trainers, show you the facilities, talk about their training program expectations for preseason and during the season and offseason.  And then be sure to go to as many games as you can and sit in the stands and listen to the families talk.  Tell them you are thinking about going to the school--would they do it over? How does their son like the program and coach.  You'd be surprised what you will hear sometimes.  And some of the better high school and travel ball coaches also know more about what the coaches' reputations are.

Unfortunately, situations like this still seem to exist way more often than they should.  Like everything on your recruiting journey, conducting a lot of due diligence about the school, coaches and trainers is part of the challenge.

Interestingly, the guy worked for Urban Myer at both Bowling Green and Florida.

Backstop22 posted:

"I am curious whether more experienced folks can lend their thoughts on this question - how do you react to NON-baseball dysfunction or bad behavior at a target school."

Unfortunately it is hard to have this kind of information exposed until a tragedy like this happened at Maryland.  It is rare to find social media or other places where kids or families talk about situations like this. And as others noted, football is bit more crazy when it comes to expectations.  But make no mistake, physical conditioning is also a huge part of college baseball and players' toughness is going to be tested.

When you do get down to narrowing your list of seriously interested schools, one thing I did is start saving a PDF of the team rosters (old versions of the rosters typically disappear from websites).  Then you can start tracking the transfers and disappearing players.   While the reported transfer rate is very high for baseball (as high as 40% for D1), seeing how much churn there is in a roster can be telling.  I'm not suggesting transfers relate to abusive practices, but that is one way to get an idea of a team's dynamics.  You can also look at stats pages to see how many kids got opportunities to play in a season.  If a kid is playing but transfers anyway that could be telling that there are other issues.

Then when it gets closer to making a final decision, be sure you do the visit and talk to the coaches about the program and training regimen.  The coach should be willing to introduce you to the trainers, show you the facilities, talk about their training program expectations for preseason and during the season and offseason.  And then be sure to go to as many games as you can and sit in the stands and listen to the families talk.  Tell them you are thinking about going to the school--would they do it over? How does their son like the program and coach.  You'd be surprised what you will hear sometimes.  And some of the better high school and travel ball coaches also know more about what the coaches' reputations are.

Unfortunately, situations like this still seem to exist way more often than they should.  Like everything on your recruiting journey, conducting a lot of due diligence about the school, coaches and trainers is part of the challenge.

+1 on this.

I will add that most successful conditioning programs (at least, in college programs today) include some form of pushing athletes close to their limits.  While the Maryland case is an example of clearly crossing the line, for most programs, there is a grey area.  So, on the other side, the athlete should come in mentally and physically tough and prepared to push and be pushed.  And, BTW, there seems to also be a degree of unexpected dysfunction in other areas of every program, whether it be organization, supervision, quality of/existence of development, game management, culture, etc.  So, on top of being prepared to play and compete, also be prepared to tackle and push through those types of challenges.  They will come.

Oh, and the Maryland HC... grew up in my home town... a relative of one of my HS best buds.  I wish I could say I was surprised that this type of culture has come to light.  That football hotbed region has long been famous for churning out guys with old school tactics and part of the thought  process that makes them so tough and competitive also sometimes results in them pushing too far and in the wrong ways.  WAR.  WIN AT ALL COSTS. PERIOD.  Again, it can be a fine line.

You're correct Cabbage.  There is definitely a line, and quality coaches seem to know where it lies.  I am one to believe that off-season programs don't need to be what Urban Myer and Durkins are alleged to have done.  Those things are sadistic.  

Strength and conditioning includes weighing guys before and after practices and making sure that they replace all of their fluids, cooling the body back down after hot practices, making sure that guys get proper nutrition and making sure that guys get enough rest and recovery.  I understand pushing guys beyond their perceived limitations, but not exhaustion sessions on every modality twice a week or continuing to push a guy who is showing signs of physical distress.

Backstop22 - thanks for the idea of checking rosters/transfers.  I'll certainly do that at the right time.  And, being the father of a '22 catcher myself, best of luck to you and your son.  

cabbagedad posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I am curious whether more experienced folks can lend their thoughts on this question - how do you react to NON-baseball dysfunction or bad behavior at a target school."

Unfortunately it is hard to have this kind of information exposed until a tragedy like this happened at Maryland.  It is rare to find social media or other places where kids or families talk about situations like this. And as others noted, football is bit more crazy when it comes to expectations.  But make no mistake, physical conditioning is also a huge part of college baseball and players' toughness is going to be tested.

When you do get down to narrowing your list of seriously interested schools, one thing I did is start saving a PDF of the team rosters (old versions of the rosters typically disappear from websites).  Then you can start tracking the transfers and disappearing players.   While the reported transfer rate is very high for baseball (as high as 40% for D1), seeing how much churn there is in a roster can be telling.  I'm not suggesting transfers relate to abusive practices, but that is one way to get an idea of a team's dynamics.  You can also look at stats pages to see how many kids got opportunities to play in a season.  If a kid is playing but transfers anyway that could be telling that there are other issues.

Then when it gets closer to making a final decision, be sure you do the visit and talk to the coaches about the program and training regimen.  The coach should be willing to introduce you to the trainers, show you the facilities, talk about their training program expectations for preseason and during the season and offseason.  And then be sure to go to as many games as you can and sit in the stands and listen to the families talk.  Tell them you are thinking about going to the school--would they do it over? How does their son like the program and coach.  You'd be surprised what you will hear sometimes.  And some of the better high school and travel ball coaches also know more about what the coaches' reputations are.

Unfortunately, situations like this still seem to exist way more often than they should.  Like everything on your recruiting journey, conducting a lot of due diligence about the school, coaches and trainers is part of the challenge.

+1 on this.

I will add that most successful conditioning programs (at least, in college programs today) include some form of pushing athletes close to their limits.  While the Maryland case is an example of clearly crossing the line, for most programs, there is a grey area.  So, on the other side, the athlete should come in mentally and physically tough and prepared to push and be pushed.  And, BTW, there seems to also be a degree of unexpected dysfunction in other areas of every program, whether it be organization, supervision, quality of/existence of development, game management, culture, etc.  So, on top of being prepared to play and compete, also be prepared to tackle and push through those types of challenges.  They will come.

Oh, and the Maryland HC... grew up in my home town... a relative of one of my HS best buds.  I wish I could say I was surprised that this type of culture has come to light.  That football hotbed region has long been famous for churning out guys with old school tactics and part of the thought  process that makes them so tough and competitive also sometimes results in them pushing too far and in the wrong ways.  WAR.  WIN AT ALL COSTS. PERIOD.  Again, it can be a fine line.

Cabbage - completely agree and both my kids (daughter is a competitive combo beach/indoor vb player) do challenging conditioning with a mix of positive and negative reinforcement.  As someone else said, it's a fine line.  This particular coach is clearly on the wrong side of that line.  

Once it was clear my son had heard his share of bad language I showed him a video of Augie Garrido reaming out one of his UT teams.  My son shrugged, smiled and said "that would get my attention."  You need some of that, so long as it's in the context of teaching and not outright abuse.  

CatcherDadNY posted:

Former Maryland coach John Szefc is now at Virginia Tech.

I was thinking of Bakich but you're right - Szefc succeeded Bakich

FoxDad posted:

Interesting article on ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/college-fo...oxic-coach-dj-durkin

Looks like the football coach was just a little over the top (bullying) in his tactics.

I understand wanting to motivate players but using food as a weapon is way beyond necessary.

I just don't see the need for such tactics.  Even the military doesn't go that far.  Yes, the DI's yelled at us and pushed us recruits hard but never used food as a weapon.  Had a saying in the army, "We can't make you do anything, but you'll wish you had."

Yes, I would say watching a player have convulsions and seizures for an hour before calling 911, after which he died of heat stroke, is just a little over the top.  More like outrageous.  These coaches should be fired, criminally charged and the NCAA should investigate the program and consider harsh sanctions.

Smitty28 posted:

FoxDad posted:

Interesting article on ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/college-fo...oxic-coach-dj-durkin

Looks like the football coach was just a little over the top (bullying) in his tactics.

I understand wanting to motivate players but using food as a weapon is way beyond necessary.

I just don't see the need for such tactics.  Even the military doesn't go that far.  Yes, the DI's yelled at us and pushed us recruits hard but never used food as a weapon.  Had a saying in the army, "We can't make you do anything, but you'll wish you had."

Yes, I would say watching a player have convulsions and seizures for an hour before calling 911, after which he died of heat stroke, is just a little over the top.  More like outrageous.  These coaches should be fired, criminally charged and the NCAA should investigate the program and consider harsh sanctions.

Agreed, and forcing a kid to eat until he threw-up is down right stupid too.  

Smitty28 posted:

FoxDad posted:

Interesting article on ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/college-fo...oxic-coach-dj-durkin

Looks like the football coach was just a little over the top (bullying) in his tactics.

I understand wanting to motivate players but using food as a weapon is way beyond necessary.

I just don't see the need for such tactics.  Even the military doesn't go that far.  Yes, the DI's yelled at us and pushed us recruits hard but never used food as a weapon.  Had a saying in the army, "We can't make you do anything, but you'll wish you had."

Yes, I would say watching a player have convulsions and seizures for an hour before calling 911, after which he died of heat stroke, is just a little over the top.  More like outrageous.  These coaches should be fired, criminally charged and the NCAA should investigate the program and consider harsh sanctions.

I'm sort of surprised criminal charges have been filed.  According to the local news a civil suit has yet to be filed but the parent's attorney seemed to indicate they are strongly considering it.

University of MD apologizes to NcNair family:

https://wtop.com/maryland/2018...ullying-allegations/

Another interesting article regarding college football:

https://wtop.com/sports-column...rograms-must-evolve/

FoxDad posted:

University of MD apologizes to NcNair family:

https://wtop.com/maryland/2018...ullying-allegations/

Another interesting article regarding college football:

https://wtop.com/sports-column...rograms-must-evolve/

Trainer was dismissed; coach still on paid leave.  Interesting how this episode seems to have prompted a broader discussion about CFB.

I think the difference between a tough coach and an abusive coach is meanness.   Take Garrido, who had a temper, but who loved his players (as they loved him).   There is an empathy that great coaches possess.  Listen to Tim Corbin talk about his players.  Tough, detail-oriented guy but his love for his players is obvious.  

That's probably what we are all looking for.  

Independent investigation has  found UM culpable.  Now let's see which heads will roll    

I can tell you all from having attended summer baseball prospect camps in 2 separate years at U Maryland that the place is unbearably hot..and I am someone that vacations at Palm Springs Cali in July and enjoys it..I have never felt such heat and discomfort as I did at that campus..they should not be allowed to have any athletic activities at that time..Its dangerous.

To the question posed by the OP:

Individual sports programs at major universities are "silos." They all fall under a common umbrella; but, the characteristics pertaining to each team are determined overwhelmingly by the coaching staff responsible for each. As a result, there can be a great deal of difference from one sport to the next in the players' experiences.

As reprehensible as the conditions that led to the football player's death there might have been, if my son were convinced that the baseball staff ran the program in a responsible way and that Maryland was a good fit as a school; I wouldn't let football's tragic incident cause me to intervene and prevent him from going there.

CatcherDadNY posted:

I can tell you all from having attended summer baseball prospect camps in 2 separate years at U Maryland that the place is unbearably hot..and I am someone that vacations at Palm Springs Cali in July and enjoys it..I have never felt such heat and discomfort as I did at that campus..they should not be allowed to have any athletic activities at that time..Its dangerous.

Unfortunately, it's probably the combination of the oppressive heat and humidity that makes it feel so uncomfortable in this area (The MD campus is only a 90 minute drive from where I live in Virginia).  Maryland and Virginia can be very uncomfortable when the humidity is high and the temperature gets above 95 F.

There are many days where the heat index (feel like temperature) exceeds 100 F.   Those days it's best to be in A/C cooled housing.  You really don't want to be practicing/working out in the middle of the day.  If you have to workout outside, then it's best to do it early in the morning before the heat builds up.  Or at night after it has cooled down.