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Metric Qualities

joemktgjoemktg5,000+ posts

Yes, it's an oxymoron, but a metric in and of itself can be meaningless without a qualitative description.

 

Take IF velo. We know that 90+ is good, but 90+ all over the place is less than 90+ with accuracy. Of course! But there's more to it than that. 90+ with accuracy, balance, and a quick release is far more important than accuracy alone. So when you look at 90+ as a metric, it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Look at it another way. Which is more important for a HS player: 91 across that is somewhat accurate, or 85 with high accuracy, excellent balance and a quick release?

 

This is a GREAT article on Scouting Grades that applies to all ballplayers: the importance of both metrics and qualities:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...oduction-and-primer/

 

So if you needed qualitative benchmarks for this off-season, you'll want to start with this article. FWIW: you better be working on both!

 

 

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GovGovMember since 2015
Originally Posted by joemktg:

Yes, it's an oxymoron, but a metric in and of itself can be meaningless without a qualitative description.

 

Take IF velo. We know that 90+ is good, but 90+ all over the place is less than 90+ with accuracy. Of course! But there's more to it than that. 90+ with accuracy, balance, and a quick release is far more important than accuracy alone. So when you look at 90+ as a metric, it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Look at it another way. Which is more important for a HS player: 91 across that is somewhat accurate, or 85 with high accuracy, excellent balance and a quick release?

 

This is a GREAT article on Scouting Grades that applies to all ballplayers: the importance of both metrics and qualities:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...oduction-and-primer/

 

So if you needed qualitative benchmarks for this off-season, you'll want to start with this article. FWIW: you better be working on both!

 

 

excellent article, solid perspective.  Ability of a MIF to get to the ball quickly reduces the need to throw a bullet, likely more accurate as well.

Last edited by Gov
D 2019Dad10,000+ posts

Wow, fantastic article, thanks. I learned a bunch. Some highlights for me:

 

  • "In limited looks at players, I’m more concerned with how often a hitter swings through hittable pitches in the zone"
  • "Since all pitches arrive at the plate on some kind of downward plane, hitters with slight upswings have a higher probability of making contact with a pitch on account of being on the same line as the ball for longer."
  • "I prefer using stolen base attempts or home-to-first sprints rather than 60-yard-dashes for grading, since running 180 feet in a straight line is so out of place with what happens on a baseball field."
  • "I am a firm believer in makeup being the biggest factor in determining a prospect’s probability of reaching or exceeding his ceiling, "
P PGStaff10,000+ posts

I think it is a very good article, but doesn't truly relate to scouting in some ways.

 

H-1 times are used by everyone, buit they can be very unreliable based on the type of hitter and his swing.

 

Everyone understands the importance of makeup.  No one on earth can evaluate it correctly while watching a baseball game.

 

Also scouts evaluate and grade all phases.  So a fastball in the upper 90s is an 8 or 80. That is the velocity grade, the grade might be a 55 for life on the fastball and a 45 for command.  You could say that fastball is a 60. (80+55+45=18/3=60) Because velocity is most important the grade could bump up at least a half point. Would you rather have a 60velocity-60-60 or an 80velocity-55-45? Both are great, but the higher ceiling is probably the guy with 80 velocity.  OFP could and usually would be a bit higher on the greater velocity.

 

Also, bat speed is important, though I agree with the writer, it is over rated somewhat. There have been some outstanding hitters with below average bat speed.

Texas1836Texas18361,000+ posts
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

I think it is a very good article, but doesn't truly relate to scouting in some ways.

 

H-1 times are used by everyone, buit they can be very unreliable based on the type of hitter and his swing.

 

Everyone understands the importance of makeup.  No one on earth can evaluate it correctly while watching a baseball game.

 

Also scouts evaluate and grade all phases.  So a fastball in the upper 90s is an 8 or 80. That is the velocity grade, the grade might be a 55 for life on the fastball and a 45 for command.  You could say that fastball is a 60. (80+55+45=18/3=60) Because velocity is most important the grade could bump up at least a half point. Would you rather have a 60velocity-60-60 or an 80velocity-55-45? Both are great, but the higher ceiling is probably the guy with 80 velocity.  OFP could and usually would be a bit higher on the greater velocity.

 

Also, bat speed is important, though I agree with the writer, it is over rated somewhat. There have been some outstanding hitters with below average bat speed.

Regarding the importance of makeup, do some college programs or professional organizations administer some a test in an effort to measure it?  This is not my area, but it seems that some sort of testing could be predictive.  Thanks

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

       

I think it is a very good article, but doesn't truly relate to scouting in some ways.

 

H-1 times are used by everyone, buit they can be very unreliable based on the type of hitter and his swing.

 

Everyone understands the importance of makeup.  No one on earth can evaluate it correctly while watching a baseball game.

 

Also scouts evaluate and grade all phases.  So a fastball in the upper 90s is an 8 or 80. That is the velocity grade, the grade might be a 55 for life on the fastball and a 45 for command.  You could say that fastball is a 60. (80+55+45=18/3=60) Because velocity is most important the grade could bump up at least a half point. Would you rather have a 60velocity-60-60 or an 80velocity-55-45? Both are great, but the higher ceiling is probably the guy with 80 velocity.  OFP could and usually would be a bit higher on the greater velocity.

 

Also, bat speed is important, though I agree with the writer, it is over rated somewhat. There have been some outstanding hitters with below average bat speed.


       
As we are once again discussing this on another thread I would ask for clarification on this.  When you say below average bat speed I assume you mean below average for that level?  For example I am sure you don't mean to say that a high school hitter with a below average high school exit velocity could be a very good hitter in high level college baseball.  Is my interpretation correct?  So what is average in D1?  Guessing maybe 90+?  So yes could see a guy in 80's being very successful with quality contact.  But what is average in high school?  Upper 70's?   Lower 80's?   So lets just take an exit velo of 72.  I would think it all but impossible that would be able to succeed at the D1 level.  Agreed?
D Dominik8510,000+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

       

I think it is a very good article, but doesn't truly relate to scouting in some ways.

 

H-1 times are used by everyone, buit they can be very unreliable based on the type of hitter and his swing.

 

Everyone understands the importance of makeup.  No one on earth can evaluate it correctly while watching a baseball game.

 

Also scouts evaluate and grade all phases.  So a fastball in the upper 90s is an 8 or 80. That is the velocity grade, the grade might be a 55 for life on the fastball and a 45 for command.  You could say that fastball is a 60. (80+55+45=18/3=60) Because velocity is most important the grade could bump up at least a half point. Would you rather have a 60velocity-60-60 or an 80velocity-55-45? Both are great, but the higher ceiling is probably the guy with 80 velocity.  OFP could and usually would be a bit higher on the greater velocity.

 

Also, bat speed is important, though I agree with the writer, it is over rated somewhat. There have been some outstanding hitters with below average bat speed.


       
As we are once again discussing this on another thread I would ask for clarification on this.  When you say below average bat speed I assume you mean below average for that level?  For example I am sure you don't mean to say that a high school hitter with a below average high school exit velocity could be a very good hitter in high level college baseball.  Is my interpretation correct?  So what is average in D1?  Guessing maybe 90+?  So yes could see a guy in 80's being very successful with quality contact.  But what is average in high school?  Upper 70's?   Lower 80's?   So lets just take an exit velo of 72.  I would think it all but impossible that would be able to succeed at the D1 level.  Agreed?

Exit velo or batspeed? There are many MLB players with a batspeed below 80. Even pujols once was only measured at 87. The zepp app says that altuve was measured at 75 mph. 

 

Exit it velocity is different of course as it depends also on bat size and quality of contact.

 

still you need a certain minimum batspeed to play at the highest level. I don't think you can play MLB below 70, average is probably high 70s to low 80s. keep in mind that an 80 batspeed will lead to about a 90 Exit Speed of the tee with perfect contact and almost 100 against a 90 mph pitch.

 

power hitters n MLB have upper 80s or more, usually in the 90s. But I think you can be a very effective hitter in HS with 65 mph batspeed if you make good contact.

 

still more batspeed is of course better.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by Dominik85:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

       

I think it is a very good article, but doesn't truly relate to scouting in some ways.

 

H-1 times are used by everyone, buit they can be very unreliable based on the type of hitter and his swing.

 

Everyone understands the importance of makeup.  No one on earth can evaluate it correctly while watching a baseball game.

 

Also scouts evaluate and grade all phases.  So a fastball in the upper 90s is an 8 or 80. That is the velocity grade, the grade might be a 55 for life on the fastball and a 45 for command.  You could say that fastball is a 60. (80+55+45=18/3=60) Because velocity is most important the grade could bump up at least a half point. Would you rather have a 60velocity-60-60 or an 80velocity-55-45? Both are great, but the higher ceiling is probably the guy with 80 velocity.  OFP could and usually would be a bit higher on the greater velocity.

 

Also, bat speed is important, though I agree with the writer, it is over rated somewhat. There have been some outstanding hitters with below average bat speed.


       
As we are once again discussing this on another thread I would ask for clarification on this.  When you say below average bat speed I assume you mean below average for that level?  For example I am sure you don't mean to say that a high school hitter with a below average high school exit velocity could be a very good hitter in high level college baseball.  Is my interpretation correct?  So what is average in D1?  Guessing maybe 90+?  So yes could see a guy in 80's being very successful with quality contact.  But what is average in high school?  Upper 70's?   Lower 80's?   So lets just take an exit velo of 72.  I would think it all but impossible that would be able to succeed at the D1 level.  Agreed?

Exit velo or batspeed? There are many MLB players with a batspeed below 80. Even pujols once was only measured at 87. The zepp app says that altuve was measured at 75 mph. 

 

Exit it velocity is different of course as it depends also on bat size and quality of contact.

 

still you need a certain minimum batspeed to play at the highest level. I don't think you can play MLB below 70, average is probably high 70s to low 80s. keep in mind that an 80 batspeed will lead to about a 90 Exit Speed of the tee with perfect contact and almost 100 against a 90 mph pitch.

 

power hitters n MLB have upper 80s or more, usually in the 90s. But I think you can be a very effective hitter in HS with 65 mph batspeed if you make good contact.

 

still more batspeed is of course better.


       
I used exit velocity simply because it is so much more common and easier to measure.  I do realize PG referenced bat speed specifically but again I chose to switch that to exit velo to put it on terms more people could relate to.  That being said 65mph bat speed in high school would be very questionable.  You would have to have a phenomenal ability to square the ball up.
D Dominik8510,000+ posts
Originally Posted by 2020dad:

       
I used exit velocity simply because it is so much more common and easier to measure.  I do realize PG referenced bat speed specifically but again I chose to switch that to exit velo to put it on terms more people could relate to.  That being said 65mph bat speed in high school would be very questionable.  You would have to have a phenomenal ability to square the ball up.
if you google MLB batspeed it says that the average is 75-80. Exit velocity is of corse different but I prefer batspeed because exit velo is dependent on so many things that it is hard to compare. Of course in reality exit velo is much more important, batspeed is more just measuring the physical skill. So if MLB players get by with 75 mph a hs player should get by with 65.
D 2020dad
Originally Posted by Dominik85:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:

       
I used exit velocity simply because it is so much more common and easier to measure.  I do realize PG referenced bat speed specifically but again I chose to switch that to exit velo to put it on terms more people could relate to.  That being said 65mph bat speed in high school would be very questionable.  You would have to have a phenomenal ability to square the ball up.
if you google MLB batspeed it says that the average is 75-80. Exit velocity is of corse different but I prefer batspeed because exit velo is dependent on so many things that it is hard to compare. Of course in reality exit velo is much more important, batspeed is more just measuring the physical skill. So if MLB players get by with 75 mph a hs player should get by with 65.

       
Respectfully disagree.  MLB and high.school play on identical size fields (not counting outfield depths which don't matter anyway since swing speeds we are talking about aren't going deep anyway).  There is a world of difference between 65 and 75 as far as getting balls through the infield and into gaps.  Not to mention the obvious that the MLB guy no doubt squares the ball up with regularity if he is scraping by with 75mph swing speed.  And one other factor - that mlb guy averaging 75 probably chooses to cut his swing for better control.  May also AVERAGE 75 because he is a light hitter who focuses on hitting behind runners etc.  Also your example was 75-80.  80 and 65 are really miles and miles apart.  Would be like a guy throwing 78 vs a guy throwing 95.  There is just no comparison.

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