Thoughts? Episode 2 discussed his not making varsity sophomore year of HS, something that often comes up here.
I was shocked that Scottie Pippin had been paid so little (comparatively).
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Excellent documentary. Two part episodes for next few weeks on Sunday nights. Very entertaining.
Hoops is a tall guy sport, Michael hadn't hit his growth stride yet, and the coach likely couldn't differentiate his ability vs few other players at the time. Had to have been tough for him, given his dream. Amazing how that strengthened him, then the growth and physical strength came into play, then the confidence exploded.
It was interesting with Pippen's pay. He did specifically address that in an interview: he wanted the security of longer term. Reinsdorf warned him that he does not renogiate. But it would seem when the talent exploded and the synergy he and Jordan created for wins that Reinsdorf should have jumped in and offered an improved contract. Reinsdorf is a dick and good businessman at the same time. I personally know plenty of LP's with the Bulls and Sox that will attest.
Great so far and couldn't have timed the release better.. so many sports fans with some seriously pent up need for our sports fix. This offers a somewhat current look at a landmark era and an icon player but seems to do a nice job of telling the inside story, warts and all. Much better than watching our 1000th game re-run. I think it is playing to a very captive and hungry audience.
Not sure how much I'm looking forward to the Rodman segment though... I don't really need to re-live that 
The first time I saw Jordan play in person was at the ‘84 Summer Olympics in LA. To me that was his coming out party and anyone that saw him play in those Olympic Games knew that he was destined to be a star. Jordan was a transcendent player and IMO the greatest of all time.
Great so far. I've heard the "cut from varsity his sophomore year" story before, but didn't think much of it. But watching this documentary, how they describe how good he was as a junior, and how he was the #1 recruited HS player in the country his senior year and ended up at the top college program in the country... it doesn't add up. You don't go from not good enough to play HS varsity to best in the country in 2 years. And growing 5 inches doesn't explain it. He had to have been an amazing talent as a sophomore. The HS coach must have been smoking crack or something.
On another note, I'm watching it with my 2019 son. It's really fun to see how into it he is, considering Jordan's career was over before he was born.
Jordan says he was competing with his brother; I'm not sure that is enough to account for his growth over that summer, but his mother said that not making varsity lit a fire.
My 2019 wasn't born either, but I will admit that we have always had a life-size cardboard cutout of Jordan in our garage... (Bulls fan husband) The first time we took our oldest son out of the house as a baby was when we lost power in the middle of a 1998 playoff game.
Shocking, but maybe not all high school (and junior high) coaches are the best judges of talent. Relating to today's high school baseball scene, having summer/travel ball, camps/showcases, and twitter/youtube allows kids to be seen by more than just their high school coach. For all the ills that come with it, thank goodness.
Also worth mentioning though... several have commented about Jordan's supreme work ethic, which cannot be discounted as a key part for his development. That, plus keeping his nose clean.
- Jordan’s high school coach didn’t screw up. As a sophomore Jordan was 5’11” and scrawny at a powerhouse high school basketball program.
As we all know some coaches believe it’s better for a younger player to star on JV and build confidence rather than be down the depth chart on varsity.
I have a friend who went from ordinary to major D1 basketball recruit in one year. With tall athletes one year can make a huge difference with agility and balance. He grew to be 6’7”. He was drafted in the first round and played a few years in the NBA. He said had he told anyone he was going to be an NBA player when he was fifteen people would have fell down laughing.
Another amazing comment was from Bobby Knight. He said Jordan was the best basketball player he had ever seen... this was after the Olympics but before Jordan ever played a game in the NBA. This was when Magic, Bird and other HOF'ers were at the height of their powers, not to mention Kareem, Wilt, Oscar, West and so many other great players Knight had seen. Quite a statement.
- I believe what separates Jordon from LeBron is mental toughness. There are times when LeBron acts like a whiny, prima ballerina.
I’m not saying LeBron isn’t mentally tough. But compared to Jordan, no. As a younger player opposing teams got inside LeBron’s head. He had to pick his team/teammates to win his first championship.
One of the more arrogant moments in sports was LeBron’s “I’m taking my talents to Miami” live broadcast.
Mohammad Ali was arrogant. But he had the personality and charm to make it work.
RJM posted:I believe what separates Jordon from LeBron is mental toughness. There are times when LeBron acts like a whiny, prima ballerina.
I’m not saying LeBron isn’t mentally tough. But compared to Jordan, no. As a younger player opposing teams got inside LeBron’s head. He had to pick his team/teammates to win his first championship.
One of sports more arrogant moments in sports was LeBron’s “I’m taking my talents to Miami” live broadcast.
Mohammad Ali was arrogant. But he had the personality and charm to make it work.
Ali had to provide that act due to when and where he grew up. The was a good program that showed the relationship between Ali and Dick Cavet, but the same could be said about his relationship with Cosell and initially with Joe Frazier.
RJM posted:I believe what separates Jordon from LeBron is mental toughness. There are times when LeBron acts like a whiny, prima ballerina.
I’m not saying LeBron isn’t mentally tough. But compared to Jordan, no. As a younger player opposing teams got inside LeBron’s head. He had to pick his team/teammates to win his first championship.
One of sports more arrogant moments in sports was LeBron’s “I’m taking my talents to Miami” live broadcast.
Mohammad Ali was arrogant. But he had the personality and charm to make it work.
I agree, but I think there's more that separates them. Jordan famously pushed and challenged his teammates to be at their best. He could take over games but he made others around him better. I don't see much of this from LeBron.
LeBron is a shameless self-promoter. Jordan’s talent is what promoted him. If social media would have been around when Jordan played there wouldn’t even be a debate about who was the better player.
adbono posted:LeBron is a shameless self-promoter. Jordan’s talent is what promoted him. If social media would have been around when Jordan played there wouldn’t even be a debate about who was the better player.
Well said - watching the Bulls documentary really highlights Jordan’s ability. I think it will be seen as night and day over the course of the series.
Thankfully they are slowly releasing the episodes. I can't binge watch anymore.
Watching with my sophomore in college son, who wasn't born when Jordan played, but judging from his commentary, has racked up a tremendous knowledge of sports history. My daughter, 23, is watching with us and it's fun to see her discovering something new. And its a trip down memory lane for my husband and I. Great viewing and a great voyage of discovery for the family.
I think lebron is really great and he also had some huge win like that one against the warriors.
The thing that haunts him was the talk about 8 rings after he joined his "superfriends" in Miami. After that he was always going to be measured against that.
But pure skill I think he is the best ever.
@Dominik85 posted:I think lebron is really great and he also had some huge win like that one against the warriors.
The thing that haunts him was the talk about 8 rings after he joined his "superfriends" in Miami. After that he was always going to be measured against that.
But pure skill I think he is the best ever.
Hard to measure pure skills, each have followed "The Outlier - Malcolm Gladwell" Effect.
Question, who would you want to take the last shot of a championship game?
Jordan has done it in college and pros.
What he did against Bird and the Celtics is hard to compare.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:Hard to measure pure skills, each have followed "The Outlier - Malcolm Gladwell" Effect.
Question, who would you want to take the last shot of a championship game?
Jordan has done it in college and pros.
What he did against Bird and the Celtics is hard to compare.
I think that current and former elite basketball players are the best judges in the Jordan vs LeBron debate. I see comments from superstars that exhalt Michael Jordan. I don’t hear those comments about LeBron from former superstars. I hear those comments only from his fans and his media supporters.
@Dominik85 posted:I think lebron is really great and he also had some huge win like that one against the warriors.
The thing that haunts him was the talk about 8 rings after he joined his "superfriends" in Miami. After that he was always going to be measured against that.
But pure skill I think he is the best ever.
This is what my son says. I made the case for Jordan being the GOAT and he said "Ok, Boomer". I think that's the way this debate will end up going.
@Smitty28 posted:This is what my son says. I made the case for Jordan being the GOAT and he said "Ok, Boomer". I think that's the way this debate will end up going.
Of course that’s what he said. That’s the go to response for that generation when they don’t have facts to support their sentiments.
This debate is a great way for us OK Boomers to connect with our kids. My 23 yo son has pretty much won me over on the GOAT question. The tipping point for me was the longevity. LeBron is still going strong... still putting up monster numbers.
If you're serious about comparing them objectively, you have to digest these numbers:
https://www.sportingnews.com/u...ozy5u1m1s4t5m3npeqo1
This is a good clip regarding the "clutch" comparison:
https://twitter.com/undisputed.../1096431846097747974
Now, one thing my son the Accounting major can appreciate is the cheddar. Total revenue for the NBA in 1984 was $165 million. By 2002 it was 2.7 BILLION. I don't know how to measure it, but MJ was responsible for at least 50% of that growth. Michael Jordan made the NBA. (He also made Nike.) He was transcendent on and off the court.
Jordan and baseball tonight. This story had more details:
@MidAtlanticDad posted:This debate is a great way for us OK Boomers to connect with our kids. My 23 yo son has pretty much won me over on the GOAT question. The tipping point for me was the longevity. LeBron is still going strong... still putting up monster numbers.
If you're serious about comparing them objectively, you have to digest these numbers:
https://www.sportingnews.com/u...ozy5u1m1s4t5m3npeqo1This is a good clip regarding the "clutch" comparison:
https://twitter.com/undisputed.../1096431846097747974Now, one thing my son the Accounting major can appreciate is the cheddar. Total revenue for the NBA in 1984 was $165 million. By 2002 it was 2.7 BILLION. I don't know how to measure it, but MJ was responsible for at least 50% of that growth. Michael Jordan made the NBA. (He also made Nike.) He was transcendent on and off the court.
No, Bird and Johnson made the NBA. Until they came on board the NBA Finals weren’t shown live. Bird and Johnson were also able to win early in their careers. They were able to beat each other. Jordan couldn’t beat Bird or Magic and didn’t win a championship until they were long gone along with the Pistons team. Once these obstacles were out of the way Jordan won without equal competition.
Without each other as competition Bird or Johnson might have won eight championships in nine years.
@RJM posted:No, Bird and Johnson made the NBA. Until they came on board the NBA Finals weren’t shown live. Bird and Johnson were also able to win early in their careers. They were able to beat each other. Jordan couldn’t beat Bird or Magic and didn’t win a championship until they were long gone along with the Pistons team. Once these obstacles were out of the way Jordan won without equal competition.
Without each other as competition Bird or Johnson might have won eight championships in nine years.
Of all the ridiculous things you have ever said, this may top the list. Especially for someone that claims to know basketball. Listen to how Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc. talk about Jordan with reverence. The superstars among his peers were in awe of him. That is the highest possible compliment - and something that you don’t ever hear about LeBron James. Jordan is the GOAT.
Phil Jackson had nothing to do with this?
@adbono posted:Of all the ridiculous things you have ever said, this may top the list. Especially for someone that claims to know basketball. Listen to how Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc. talk about Jordan with reverence. The superstars among his peers were in awe of him. That is the highest possible compliment - and something that you don’t ever hear about LeBron James. Jordan is the GOAT.
I wasn’t aware I make a lot of ridiculous posts on this board. I didn’t say Jordan wasn’t athletically a better basketball player. There were plenty of NBA players more athletic than Bird and Magic. But for all the years they played Bird and Magic had opposing players and teams beat mentally (outside of each other) before they took the court.
I would take Bird and the Celtics and Magic and the Lakers in their prime over Jordan and the Bulls in their prime every time.
it’s a personal opinion. It’s less ridiculous than you calling a lot of my posts ridiculous. But even more absurd would be the need for confrontation.
@RJM posted:I wasn’t aware I make a lot of ridiculous posts on this board. I didn’t say Jordan wasn’t athletically a better basketball player. There were plenty of NBA players more athletic than Bird and Magic. But for all the years they played Bird and Magic had opposing players and teams beat mentally (outside of each other) before they took the court.
I would take Bird and the Celtics and Magic and the Lakers in their prime over Jordan and the Bulls in their prime every time.
it’s a personal opinion. It’s less ridiculous than you calling a lot of my posts ridiculous. But even more absurd would be the need for confrontation.
In the 70's there was a lot of parity in the NBA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...79:_Decade_of_parity
Is your affinity to Bird and Magic due more to what the state of basketball?
it has been stated Bird/Magic or Magic/Bird saved basketball ball, Michael Jordan transcended basketball.
Bird told The Boston Globe. “It's just God disguised as Michael Jordan.”
All that could be stated, Mike Jordan was 7 - 0 in winning championships.
Ask Patrick Ewing how he feels about Jordan, without Jordan,
Ewing has 2 NCAA Championships, and probably 2 to 3 visits to the NBA Championship with scrub teams.
Matter of fact, Ewing could have had 3 NCAA (Villanova played the perfect game).
but I digress.
@RJM posted:I wasn’t aware I make a lot of ridiculous posts on this board. I didn’t say Jordan wasn’t athletically a better basketball player. There were plenty of NBA players more athletic than Bird and Magic. But for all the years they played Bird and Magic had opposing players and teams beat mentally (outside of each other) before they took the court.
I would take Bird and the Celtics and Magic and the Lakers in their prime over Jordan and the Bulls in their prime every time.
it’s a personal opinion. It’s less ridiculous than you calling a lot of my posts ridiculous. But even more absurd would be the need for confrontation.
I think most of us are capable of making a ridiculous post from time to time, myself included.
I'm enjoying the series a lot. No question in my mind then and now how great Michael Jordan's talent and competitiveness drove him back in the day. I loved the Celtics/Lakers team rivalries of the 80s, but the Bulls showed us a different way to play basketball. I remember when they were trying to get over the Piston hurdle and I was hoping they did because EVERYBODY hated the Pistons back then. The NBA was exciting but it was definitely a different (officiated) brand of basketball back then...especially in the East.
The most interesting part of the documentary isn't necessarily about Michael, but the teammates, friends, competitors, Bulls organization and the people in his orbit. I was unaware (didn't live in Chicago) of Scottie Pippen's financial situation as well as the front office friction with Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause. Michael was a tremendous talent. He also had a good surrounding cast that he transformed on the court from one dimensional to multi-dimensional. This became the Bulls success formula, and in my mind separates Michael from anybody else. He figured out how to best use his talents to adapt to his teammates around him and still be successful winning championships and MVPs.
If there are two things to conclude from this series it is that Michael Jordan is the best of all time, and the NBA is a very different place today.
I'm enjoying the series as well with my wife, son (and sometimes my other nonathletic son). Nice not to watch reruns of old sports. I had the excitement of living in the Chicago area from 1992-2005. They were definitely the greatest show in town. I usually got to a game or two a year- tickets were tough but a bowling buddy was a season ticket holder. I think one game I went to was an early game where they received their rings from the year before. Another year was a late game in the year against the Knicks where everyone got a cassette tape of the Gatorade jingle "Be like Mike." Yeah I got a couple of these left..
primed for Ebay. I didn't realize he started off with a 11 or 13 game hitting streak.
And the cups below were neat from a promotion by McDonalds drinks, featuring Dennis Rodman - set of 4. The hair changed color if the drink had a hot or cold beverage. Pretty cool!
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